Ten Horns: Alternative view

[DurbanDude]

Rev 13 refers to a new empire (a beast) that arises from the nations of the sea. It will resemble the leopard. One way of interpreting this is that a future empire will arise from the nations and peoples of the Meditteranean, and this new empire will resemble the "leopard empire" of Alexander the Great, referred to in Daniel 7. If there is a new empire arising this means that it must include the regions of Alexander's Empire:
Libya, Egypt, Israel, Lebanon, Syria, Turkey, Greece, Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan.

Horns represent countries or their leaders, reading Daniel 7 this indicates that the fourth empire-Western Europe will set up a small horn, a little country. This little horn could easily be Israel, conquered by Western Europe during WW2 and then set up in 1948. This country will rule over ten regions (Middle East countries). Three of these ten countries will fall directly to Israel and its allies, namely Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan.

Rev 17 indicates that this future empire that arises used to exist before, and yet when it re-appears it amazes only the unbelievers of the world. This hints that believers were prophetically expecting this country to re-arise:
And they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, `they' whose name hath not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast, how that he was, and is not, and shall come.

In 1948 Israel amazed the world by re-appearing, and the world is still reeling from it. This beast country that re-appears has the manipulation of Europe behind it, the harlot (Europa) sits on the beast as per Rev 17.

My conclusion: Israel is a likely candidate to be the future leading country in a ten nation Middle Eastern Confederation that will resemble Alexander's Empire. Three of those ten nations will fall directly to Israel and its ally the USA, these 3 countries are Iraq, Iran, and Afghanistan, and these are the 3 horns of the ten horns of Daniel 7. All verses about the beast uniquely fit Israel well.

DAN 7:20 and concerning the ten horns that were on its head, and the other `horn' which came up, and before which three fell, even that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake great things, whose look was more stout than its fellows.

[Caleb]

Are the beasts in Daniel the same as the beast in Rev, or are they the same as the dragon in Rev?

In Rev, I see that the dragon has ten horns and the beast has ten horns different from the dragons.

[markedward]

If there is a new empire arising this means that it must include the regions of Alexander's Empire:
Libya, Egypt, Israel, Lebanon, Syria, Turkey, Greece, Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan.

Oh. You're going by contemporary nation divisions. Seeing as how they 'must include the regions of Alexander's Empire', I figured they would need to be the nation divisions according to the period when his empire actually existed (which was far more than ten). Because Iraq, Iran, and Aghanistan were definitely not divisions of Alexander's kingdom.

But even if we're going by contemporary nations, you're conveniently leaving out several countries to fit your list of the prerequisite ten. Aside from the lack of Jordan (which is right next to Israel, well within Alexander's empire), if you're counting Afghanistan because of what little bit of the western regions happened to once be under Alexander's control, then being consistent would require the inclusions of four more countries because Alexander happened to control a little bit of them: Azer Baijan, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, and Kuwait.

Now we're up to fifteen. Let's also not forget that these contemporary dividing lines weren't the same even just 100 years ago... who's to say they'll be the same in another 100 years? Hence the flaw in trying to categorize an ancient empire's regions according to today's divisions, and not the ancient divisions.

[Beckrl]

Yeah, I'm thinking there's a misunderstanding in translations from Daniel concerning the ten horns as ten kings (Melek) as I make mention Here.

[Caleb]

Oh. You're going by contemporary nation divisions. Seeing as how they 'must include the regions of Alexander's Empire', I figured they would need to be the nation divisions according to the period when his empire actually existed (which was far more than ten). Because Iraq, Iran, and Aghanistan were definitely not divisions of Alexander's kingdom.

But even if we're going by contemporary nations, you're conveniently leaving out several countries to fit your list of the prerequisite ten. Aside from the lack of Jordan (which is right next to Israel, well within Alexander's empire), if you're counting Afghanistan because of what little bit of the western regions happened to once be under Alexander's control, then being consistent would require the inclusions of four more countries because Alexander happened to control a little bit of them: Azer Baijan, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, and Kuwait.

Now we're up to fifteen. Let's also not forget that these contemporary dividing lines weren't the same even just 100 years ago... who's to say they'll be the same in another 100 years? Hence the flaw in trying to categorize an ancient empire's regions according to today's divisions, and not the ancient divisions.

Why would it matter that there were more than 10?

Just as there were many disciples, out of them 12 were specially chosen by Jesus.

[markedward]

The situation is nowhere near comparable to the disciples. The issue there was not that Jesus had seventy or so followers, and then two thousand years later someone came along and said 'these certain twelve were the special ones' without having a real reason for how they picked those twelve out of the seventy. The issue there was that Jesus had seventy or so followers, and he himself chose twelve to be his special ones.

Who is the authority to determine which of the ten of those (at least) fifteen countries are the 'right' ten, if any? The authority would either need to be Alexander himself having chosen which ten (which would be impressive, since several of them didn't exist until centuries later), or some sort of prophetic figure. But we don't have that. We have someone coming up with the idea on their own, and doing what is essentially picking-and-choosing which ten 'count'. That's why it matters that there were more than ten.

[markedward]

It will resemble the leopard. One way of interpreting this is that a future empire will arise from the nations and peoples of the Meditteranean, and this new empire will resemble the "leopard empire" of Alexander the Great, referred to in Daniel 7.

What about the parts that resemble the first beast, the lion (Babylon), and the second beast, the bear (Media-Persia), of Daniel 7? Or the fourth beast, with its ten horns and the parallel descriptions of making war on the saints (Syria, or Rome, depending on your perspective)? Why are you leaving those out?

[ross3421]

The 10 horns represent 10 of the 12 tribes of Israel.

[DurbanDude]

Are the beasts in Daniel the same as the beast in Rev, or are they the same as the dragon in Rev?

In Rev, I see that the dragon has ten horns and the beast has ten horns different from the dragons.

The dragon is simply Satan, and his association with the ten-horned beast merely represents his influence over politics and the creation of this new political entity.

The beast in Daniel 7 represents Western Europe, the base of the Roman Empire. If you refer to Daniel 8, the Greek Goat is split into four horns, showing that horns can represent regions of an empire. And so when we see that this beast is followed by a little horn, this can indicate a different base of power for the beast, ie the little horn represents a new power centre for Europe. It is only this final "little horn" stage of the beast that is associated with the ten horns.

The beast of Revelation is focussing solely on the ten horns stage of the beast, ie this beast represents the "little horn", the final manifestation of Satan's political power set up by the previous power, Europe.

[DurbanDude]

Oh. You're going by contemporary nation divisions. Seeing as how they 'must include the regions of Alexander's Empire', I figured they would need to be the nation divisions according to the period when his empire actually existed (which was far more than ten). Because Iraq, Iran, and Aghanistan were definitely not divisions of Alexander's kingdom.

I don't think the bible intended an exact match of various aspects of the original "leopard" empire with this futre empire. It will "resemble" meaning that there will be something similar about Alexander's Empire to this end times empire. This one comment is so wide open to interpretation it could mean anything. I am focussing on a general matching of basic geographical shape of Alexander's empire to this future empire, in my eyes this would satisfy "resembling" but prophecy is often so wide open to interpretation I am sure that you can find other alternatives as well.

But even if we're going by contemporary nations, you're conveniently leaving out several countries to fit your list of the prerequisite ten. Aside from the lack of Jordan (which is right next to Israel, well within Alexander's empire), if you're counting Afghanistan because of what little bit of the western regions happened to once be under Alexander's control, then being consistent would require the inclusions of four more countries because Alexander happened to control a little bit of them: Azer Baijan, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, and Kuwait.

You may have read about my view of Daniel 11 before? An evil leader is described in Daniel 11 who dies at the time of the resurrection of all in the book. This leader is based in Israel (he plants his tents there). He controls the region and yet DOES NOT control Jordan. So the resemblance to Alexander's empire is not exact, but is a general resemblance based on current world politics. This new empire will not control the entire Middle East, merely the ten nation confederation. The other countries you have listed have a history of alliances with the West and the West has no reason to crush and coerce them.

Now we're up to fifteen. Let's also not forget that these contemporary dividing lines weren't the same even just 100 years ago... who's to say they'll be the same in another 100 years? Hence the flaw in trying to categorize an ancient empire's regions according to today's divisions, and not the ancient divisions

I hear you , what you saying is true. However the reason I am using contemporary politics is that from reading prophecy I have long understood Israel to be the future "beast empire". I have been saying this for years now, ever since I started on this site. So when I see a series of events happening in rapid succession that all favour Israel I see a pattern, when I was already expecting a pattern of political events that would result in peace and control for Israel.

[DurbanDude]

What about the parts that resemble the first beast, the lion (Babylon), and the second beast, the bear (Media-Persia), of Daniel 7? Or the fourth beast, with its ten horns and the parallel descriptions of making war on the saints (Syria, or Rome, depending on your perspective)? Why are you leaving those out?

I believe the new empire will have Iraq (lion) and Iran (bear) as part of that empire. The fourth beast is Western Europe, and then this fourth beast expresses its power and world influence through another small country (little horn) which is associated with a new ten-region empire of which 3 fall to the "little horn". I believe this alliance between this Israel/Islam empire and Europe will cause the world persecution of the saints possibly according to Islamic law. We will be the only ones to oppose this future religious leader of this new empire and so we will be persecuted all over the world.

My interpretation of this is that the fourth beast, Western Europe, sets up Israel "little horn" as a growing power, and on Israel's behalf attacks Iraq and Iran and Afghanistan. In this way the 3 opposing Middle Eastern "theocracies" are destroyed through Western invasions, paving the way for an EU type regional democratic government with Turkey and Israel having the greatest influence in that government. This fourth beast is therefore a Meditteranean controlled power, the beast rises from nations and peoples of the Meditteranean sea, being Israel, Turkey, Greece, Libya, Egypt, Lebanon, Syria.

I'm not saying it has to be these 10 nations. However it pans out, if a ten nation Middle Eastern Union arises with Israel at its helm that vaguely resembles the outline of Alexander's kingdom, it would be a good time to start thinking if this is the "beast empire" of Revelation or the "little horn" of Daniel 7. As far as current political events go, there are no signs of a regional currency or a regional government yet unless Israel itself joins the Arab League, which would be pretty ironic.

[moltenflower]

Revelation is written in both literal and figurative speech. Revelation 13 defines the Satanic attributes that describe the beast (Antichrist); the beast whose father is Satan (Revelation 12:3,9). Revelation 13 begins to define and translate the correlation and relation between the beast and his father, Satan giving descriptions that match each other, i.e., heads, horns and diadems. The Bible teaches that when he comes, the beast will possess all the power of Satan. (2 Thessalonians 2:9).

In Bible prophecy, the "sea" represents wicked peoples and nations; "heads" speak of wisdom; "horns" speak of power; "crowns" speak of dominion.

Revelation 13:2... Here, the beast further described and to understand this verse, we need to look at Daniel 7, which describes the four great empires of the world as beasts: Lion (Daniel 7:4), which was the Babylonian Empire. A lion is the royal king of beasts that possesses great strength, a ravenous appetite and terrifies other animals in the animal kingdom; Bear (Daniel 7:5) was Medo-Persia. A bear possesses massive strength and powerful claws that could provide crushing blows to its victims; Leopard (Daniel 7:6) characterized the Greek Empire (as per Daniel) because of its rapid movement to conquer the world. Leopards are known to be swift; Dragon (Daniel 7:7 refers to one more kingdom over which the Antichrist will rule), a terrible, powerful, exceedingly strong and dreadful dragon with great iron teeth.

In the first two verses of Revelation 13, we see the Antichrist. The end of Revelation 13:2 states that the dragon (Satan) will receive a throne of authority from Satan in which to rule the world. Satan has it to give because he took great dominion from Adam when Adam and Eve fell to temptation/sin.

This man (Antichrist) will come from the lineage of empires as defined above with their corresponding traits. He will have the royalty of Babylon, the strength of Medo-Persia, and sophisticated wisdom of Greece. He will be a combination of Alexander the Great, Napoleon, Caesar, Charlemagne, Hitler and more. This is his family legacy.*

*footnote: Literary reference to Pastor Adrian Rogers' "Unveiling The End Times In Our Time".

[DurbanDude]

Oh. You're going by contemporary nation divisions. Seeing as how they 'must include the regions of Alexander's Empire', I figured they would need to be the nation divisions according to the period when his empire actually existed (which was far more than ten). Because Iraq, Iran, and Aghanistan were definitely not divisions of Alexander's kingdom.

But even if we're going by contemporary nations, you're conveniently leaving out several countries to fit your list of the prerequisite ten. Aside from the lack of Jordan (which is right next to Israel, well within Alexander's empire), if you're counting Afghanistan because of what little bit of the western regions happened to once be under Alexander's control, then being consistent would require the inclusions of four more countries because Alexander happened to control a little bit of them: Azer Baijan, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, and Kuwait.

Now we're up to fifteen. Let's also not forget that these contemporary dividing lines weren't the same even just 100 years ago... who's to say they'll be the same in another 100 years? Hence the flaw in trying to categorize an ancient empire's regions according to today's divisions, and not the ancient divisions.

Another thought is the ten nations already exist when the little horn (the small new country - Israel) rises up, and 3 fall. This is the way in which Daniel 7 describes these ten horns. This would mean that the little horn is the eleventh country of this new empire which rises towards the end of the power of Europe (the fourth beast). So it does give leeway for one more country in my list of countries, possibly Pakistan which as you pointed out was also partially under Alexander's rule.

As I said "resembling" isn't exact, yet if Alexander only ruled a small portion of a region, you wouldn't expect that region to be part of the modern empire. If Alexander ruled a large part of that country then it would be part of the new empire, this is the only way you would get modern borders to approximate the borders of Alexander's empire.

[DurbanDude]

This man (Antichrist) will come from the lineage of empires as defined above with their corresponding traits. He will have the royalty of Babylon, the strength of Medo-Persia, and sophisticated wisdom of Greece. He will be a combination of Alexander the Great, Napoleon, Caesar, Charlemagne, Hitler and more. This is his family legacy.*

This is one way of looking at it, but I believe in a more literal method of interpretation. ie if the bear and the lion are part of this beast, I believe this means that Iraq and Iran are part of this empire. If the beast resembles the leopard this means that the new empire resembles the Greek Empire. I just find your interpretation is too subjective and not enough of a literal fit.