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Thread: Jesus did not arm His disciples with swords.

  1. #16
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    Re: Jesus did not arm His disciples with swords.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jemand View Post
    The very literal American Standard Version reads,

    Luke 22:36 And he said unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise a wallet; and he that hath none, let him sell his cloak, and buy a sword.

    The even more literal translation by Robert Young, Young’s Literal Translation of the Holy Bible, reads,

    Luke 22:36 Then said he to them, ‘But, now, he who is having a bag, let him take it up, and in like manner also a scrip; and he who is not having, let him sell his garment, and buy a sword,’

    Young’s translation is faithful to the Greek in omitting the word ‘sword’ after the second occurrence of the word ‘having’ (not having [a sword]) and including it after the second occurrence of the word ‘a’ (buy a sword) at the end of the sentence. We are wasting a lot of time on this because some people are not being careful in reading the Greek text before commenting upon it.
    The issue is not what translators have written in....but the Greek text. Check on E-sword...
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  2. #17
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    Re: Jesus did not arm His disciples with swords.

    The Greek word for sword is the same for knife or any other blade. The same goes for the Hebrew. A "blade" is a biblical "blade". To think it means only to kill men with is to judge privately what the word is saying. The word reveals more about us and what we want it to say then the original intent of the message.

    It is not in keeping with the teachings of Jesus to interpret His "It is enough" as a license to kill. Jesus rebuked Peter for lifting his "sword" in order to defend Jesus.
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  3. #18
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    Re: Jesus did not arm His disciples with swords.

    Quote Originally Posted by episkopos View Post
    A knife for a fisherman...a sword for a soldier. Which was Peter? A man can cut off somebody's ear with a knife. Would the Romans have allowed Jews to walk around with battle swords??? Regardless

    Notice what Jesus said...

    Mat_26:52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

    Quote Originally Posted by episkopos View Post
    The issue is not what translators have written in....but the Greek text. Check on E-sword...
    In post #11 of this thread, I wrote:


    I checked the E-sword program, and I read Luke 22:36 in the 1550 Greek text by Stephens, the Greek text that is the closest printed Greek text to the Greek text from which the New Testament in the King James Version was translated, and the last word in Luke 22:36 in that text is μάχαιραν, a word that, when used literally, always means ‘sword’ (usually a short one) or a ‘dagger.’ I compared this Greek text found in the E-sword program with a hardcopy of the same text and they read the same as each other. Please be more careful when posting information!

  4. #19

    Re: Jesus did not arm His disciples with swords.

    G3162
    μάχαιρα
    machaira
    Thayer Definition:
    1) a large knife, used for killing animals and cutting up flesh
    2) a small sword, as distinguished from a large sword
    2a) curved sword, for a cutting stroke
    2b) a straight sword, for thrusting
    Part of Speech: noun feminine
    A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from a presumed derivative of G3163
    Citing in TDNT: 4:524, 572

  5. #20
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    Re: Jesus did not arm His disciples with swords.

    Quote Originally Posted by episkopos View Post
    The Greek word for sword is the same for knife or any other blade. The same goes for the Hebrew. A "blade" is a biblical "blade". To think it means only to kill men with is to judge privately what the word is saying. The word reveals more about us and what we want it to say then the original intent of the message.

    It is not in keeping with the teachings of Jesus to interpret His "It is enough" as a license to kill. Jesus rebuked Peter for lifting his "sword" in order to defend Jesus.
    Two different Greek words for a sword are used in the New Testament. Neither one of these Greek words is used for a fishing knife or any other kind of knife.

    μάχαιρα
    ρ'ομφαία

    At least five different Hebrew words are used in the Old Testament for bladed instruments such as knives and swords.

    מאכלת
    שׂכּין
    שׁלח שׁלּח
    חרב
    מחלף


  6. #21
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    Re: Jesus did not arm His disciples with swords.

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    G3162
    μάχαιρα
    machaira
    Thayer Definition:
    1) a large knife, used for killing animals and cutting up flesh
    2) a small sword, as distinguished from a large sword
    2a) curved sword, for a cutting stroke
    2b) a straight sword, for thrusting
    Part of Speech: noun feminine
    A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from a presumed derivative of G3163
    Citing in TDNT: 4:524, 572
    Thayer’s lexicon was last revised in 1889, 123 years ago! Please see a current and more accurate lexicon.

  7. #22

    Re: Jesus did not arm His disciples with swords.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jemand View Post
    Thayer’s lexicon was last revised in 1889, 123 years ago! Please see a current and more accurate lexicon.
    Thayer's is perfectly accurate and is newer than what most people here read as their bible translation.

  8. #23
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    Re: Jesus did not arm His disciples with swords.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jemand View Post
    Two different Greek words for a sword are used in the New Testament. Neither one of these Greek words is used for a fishing knife or any other kind of knife.

    μάχαιρα
    ρ'ομφαία

    At least five different Hebrew words are used in the Old Testament for bladed instruments such as knives and swords.

    מאכלת
    שׂכּין
    שׁלח שׁלּח
    חרב
    מחלף


    What is the Greek word for a knife that could be used on fish...in the bible? Or can we assume that Peter would not have been unable to prepare a fish other than using a battle sword?
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  9. #24
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    Re: Jesus did not arm His disciples with swords.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jemand View Post
    In post #11 of this thread, I wrote:

    I checked the E-sword program, and I read Luke 22:36 in the 1550 Greek text by Stephens, the Greek text that is the closest printed Greek text to the Greek text from which the New Testament in the King James Version was translated, and the last word in Luke 22:36 in that text is μάχαιραν, a word that, when used literally, always means ‘sword’ (usually a short one) or a ‘dagger.’ I compared this Greek text found in the E-sword program with a hardcopy of the same text and they read the same as each other. Please be more careful when posting information!

    Unless our e-swords are different we have a discrepency here

    Here is what the online version says...

    Luk 22:36 ThenG3767 saidG2036 he unto them,G846 ButG235 now,G3568 he that hathG2192 a purse,G905 let him takeG142 it, andG2532 likewiseG3668 his(G2532) scrip:G4082 andG2532 he that hathG2192 noG3361 sword, let him sellG4453 hisG848 garment,G2440 andG2532 buyG59 one.(G3162) Notice bracketed item has been added by translators

    The last entry is in brackets because it is assumed to be there to try to make sense of the text by the translators. It is not in the original Greek. Please be more careful when trying to correct a correction.
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  10. #25
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    Re: Jesus did not arm His disciples with swords.

    In Greek meaning is established by context. Jesus didn't send them on a fishing expedition. He sent them on paths where criminals prey on travellers.

  11. #26
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    Re: Jesus did not arm His disciples with swords.

    Quote Originally Posted by keck553 View Post
    In Greek meaning is established by context. Jesus didn't send them on a fishing expedition. He sent them on paths where criminals prey on travellers.
    The true context was providing for money and food. Jesus first sent out His servants without a staff, money, or food bag. They were to go to a house in a given town and stay there receiving all their needs there.

    But the disciples were to become hunted men...so they would have to fend for themselves...peacefully. Jesus said they should have money and a food bag since they were to become criminalized by association with Jesus. They could no longer expect to be well received by the people for fear of reprisals from the officials.

    There is NO documented armed insurrection by Christ's followers in the first few hundred years of the church. Christians went to exemplary deaths WITHOUT seeking to defend themselves. Do a little research on this.
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  12. #27
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    Re: Jesus did not arm His disciples with swords.

    Why do you suppose that Christians never faced the lions with swords in the arena? Were Christians known as sword fighters in the first few hundred years? I challenge anyone to find ANY shred of evidence that supports Christians as swordmen at least until the establishment of the church sytem (spiritual Babylonian captivity) in the 4th century AD. Constantine is the first to equate the Cross with the sword.

    We must choose to follow Constantine...or Christ.
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  13. #28
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    Re: Jesus did not arm His disciples with swords.

    Quote Originally Posted by episkopos View Post
    The true context was providing for money and food. Jesus first sent out His servants without a staff, money, or food bag. They were to go to a house in a given town and stay there receiving all their needs there.

    But the disciples were to become hunted men...so they would have to fend for themselves...peacefully. Jesus said they should have money and a food bag since they were to become criminalized by association with Jesus. They could no longer expect to be well received by the people for fear of reprisals from the officials.

    There is NO documented armed insurrection by Christ's followers in the first few hundred years of the church. Christians went to exemplary deaths WITHOUT seeking to defend themselves. Do a little research on this.
    Speculation. Christians were outnumbered 100,000:1. Of course they had no chance to win a physical battle, so your documentation claim is without merit. That context is irrelevant to a sojourner on a dangerous road, where Jesus made sure they were EQUIPPED to serve Him, both physically and spiritually.

    Besides, your two arguments are in conflict. On the one had, you claim the Greek word for sword/dagger was added to the text. On the other hand you claim it really means a paring knife, in effect saying the term IS there. Which is it?

  14. #29
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    Re: Jesus did not arm His disciples with swords.

    Quote Originally Posted by episkopos View Post
    Why do you suppose that Christians never faced the lions with swords in the arena? Were Christians known as sword fighters in the first few hundred years? I challenge anyone to find ANY shred of evidence that supports Christians as swordmen at least until the establishment of the church sytem (spiritual Babylonian captivity) in the 4th century AD. Constantine is the first to equate the Cross with the sword.

    We must choose to follow Constantine...or Christ.
    Um..I'll really stretch my brain out on this one.......because their swords were confiscated by their captors?

  15. #30

    Re: Jesus did not arm His disciples with swords.

    Quote Originally Posted by episkopos View Post
    Unless our e-swords are different we have a discrepency here

    Here is what the online version says...

    Luk 22:36 ThenG3767 saidG2036 he unto them,G846 ButG235 now,G3568 he that hathG2192 a purse,G905 let him takeG142 it, andG2532 likewiseG3668 his(G2532) scrip:G4082 andG2532 he that hathG2192 noG3361 sword, let him sellG4453 hisG848 garment,G2440 andG2532 buyG59 one.(G3162) Notice bracketed item has been added by translators

    The last entry is in brackets because it is assumed to be there to try to make sense of the text by the translators. It is not in the original Greek. Please be more careful when trying to correct a correction.

    E-sword is a simple, somewhat simplistic tool and is only good for basic things. It fails in this situation. Invest in Biblesoft or go here:

    http://scripture4all.org/OnlineInter...Tpdf/luk22.pdf

    sword luke 22-36.jpg

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