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Thread: Jesus did not arm His disciples with swords.

  1. #1
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    Jesus did not arm His disciples with swords.

    Luk 22:36 ThenG3767 saidG2036 he unto them,G846 ButG235 now,G3568 he that hathG2192 a purse,G905 let him takeG142 it, andG2532 likewiseG3668 his(G2532) scrip:G4082 andG2532 he that hathG2192 noG3361 sword, let him sellG4453 hisG848 garment,G2440 andG2532 buyG59 one.(G3162)
    Luk 22:37 ForG1063 I sayG3004 unto you,G5213 thatG3754 thisG5124 that is writtenG1125 mustG1163 yetG2089 be accomplishedG5055 inG1722 me,G1698 AndG2532 he was reckonedG3049 amongG3326 the transgressors:G459 forG1063(G2532) the thingsG3588 concerningG4012 meG1700 haveG2192 an end.G5056
    Luk 22:38 AndG1161 theyG3588 said,G2036 Lord,G2962 behold,G2400 hereG5602 are twoG1417 swords.G3162 AndG1161 heG3588 saidG2036 unto them,G846 It isG2076 enough.G2425


    Jesus never said anything about buying a sword. If you look at the Greek there is no mention of a sword. Jesus is saying that if a person does not have a bag, he should sell his cloak to buy one.

    Jesus is contrasting how He first sent out His disciples to minister WITHOUT a purse of a bag.

    Luk_10:4 CarryG941 neitherG3361 purse,G905 norG3361 scrip,G4082 norG3366 shoes:G5266 andG2532 saluteG782 no manG3367 byG2596 theG3588 way.G3598

    This is proved again...

    Luk_22:35 AndG2532 he saidG2036 unto them,G846 WhenG3753 I sentG649 youG5209 withoutG817 purse,G905 andG2532 scrip,G4082 andG2532 shoes,G5266(G3361) lackedG5302 ye any thing?G5100 AndG1161 theyG3588 said,G2036 Nothing.G3762

    Jesus said...

    Luke 22:36 ThenG3767 saidG2036 he unto them,G846 ButG235 now,G3568 he that hathG2192 a purse,G905 let him takeG142 it, andG2532 likewiseG3668 his(G2532) scrip:G4082 andG2532 he that hathG2192 noG3361 sword, let him sellG4453 hisG848 garment,G2440 andG2532 buyG59 one.(G3162)


    No mention of swords. The word sword has been added to the text in the translation.The word sword was added in the translations because of the mention of swords later. Peter says they have two swords. Jesus said "It is enough."

    It is enough to sell these (swords) in order to buy what they previously didn't have. Jesus did not go "Che Guevera" on us.
    People gave things to the disciples....and among the things they had were two swords. Unless you think that Jesus was a weapons collector. Jesus actually spoke against having weapons. He sent out His followers as sheep among wolves.

    It is an error to put words in Jesus' mouth that He never said. The error is compounded in the thinking that Jesus was doing an arms distribution among his followers.



  2. #2
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    Re: Jesus did not arm His disciples with swords.

    Wrong.


    Strong's Transliteration Greek English Morphology
    3004 [e] eipen εἶπεν He said V-AIA-3S
    1161 [e] de δὲ therefore Conj
    846 [e] autois αὐτοῖς to them, PPro-DM3P
    235 [e] Alla Ἀλλὰ however Conj
    3568 [e] nyn νῦν now Adv
    3588 [e] ho ὁ the [one] Art-NMS
    2192 [e] echōn ἔχων who has V-PPA-NMS
    905 [e] ballantion βαλλάντιον a purse N-ANS
    142 [e] aratō ἀράτω let him take [it], V-AMA-3S
    3668 [e] homoiōs ὁμοίως likewise Adv
    2532 [e] kai καὶ also Conj
    4082 [e] pēran πήραν bag; N-AFS
    2532 [e] kai καὶ and Conj
    3588 [e] ho ὁ he who Art-NMS
    3361 [e] mē μὴ not Adv
    2192 [e] echōn ἔχων has [one], V-PPA-NMS
    4453 [e] pōlēsatō πωλησάτω let him sell V-AMA-3S
    3588 [e] to τὸ the Art-ANS
    2440 [e] himation ἱμάτιον cloak N-ANS
    846 [e] autou αὐτοῦ of him, PPro-GM3S
    2532 [e] kai καὶ and Conj
    59 [e] agorasatō ἀγορασάτω buy V-AMA-3S
    3162 [e] machairan μάχαιραν a sword; N-AFS



    ΚΑΤΑ ΛΟΥΚΑΝ 22:36 Greek NT: Westcott/Hort with Diacritics
    εἶπεν δὲ αὐτοῖς· ἀλλὰ νῦν ὁ ἔχων βαλλάντιον ἀράτω, ὁμοίως καὶ πήραν, καὶ ὁ μὴ ἔχων πωλησάτω τὸ ἱμάτιον αὐτοῦ καὶ ἀγορασάτω μάχαιραν.

    εἶπεν οὖν αὐτοῖς· Ἀλλὰ νῦν ὁ ἔχων βαλάντιον ἀράτω, ὁμοίως καὶ πήραν, καὶ ὁ μὴ ἔχων πωλήσει τὸ ἱμάτιον αὐτοῦ καὶ ἀγοράσει μάχαιραν.
    ΚΑΤΑ ΛΟΥΚΑΝ 22:36 Greek NT: Tischendorf 8th Ed. with Diacritics
    ὁ δὲ εἶπεν αὐτοῖς· ἀλλὰ νῦν ὁ ἔχων βαλλάντιον ἀράτω, ὁμοίως καὶ πήραν, καὶ ὁ μὴ ἔχων πωλησάτω τὸ ἱμάτιον αὐτοῦ καὶ ἀγορασάτω μάχαιραν.
    ΚΑΤΑ ΛΟΥΚΑΝ 22:36 Greek NT: Stephanus Textus Receptus (1550, with accents)
    εἶπεν οὖν αὐτοῖς Ἀλλὰ νῦν ὁ ἔχων βαλάντιον ἀράτω ὁμοίως καὶ πήραν καὶ ὁ μὴ ἔχων πωλησάτω τὸ ἱμάτιον αὐτοῦ καὶ ἀγορασάτω μάχαιραν
    ΚΑΤΑ ΛΟΥΚΑΝ 22:36 Greek NT: Byzantine/Majority Text (2000)
    ειπεν ουν αυτοις αλλα νυν ο εχων βαλαντιον αρατω ομοιως και πηραν και ο μη εχων πωλησει το ιματιον αυτου και αγορασει μαχαιραν
    ΚΑΤΑ ΛΟΥΚΑΝ 22:36 Greek NT: Textus Receptus (1894)
    ειπεν ουν αυτοις αλλα νυν ο εχων βαλαντιον αρατω ομοιως και πηραν και ο μη εχων πωλησατω το ιματιον αυτου και αγορασατω μαχαιραν εἶπεν δὲ αὐτοῖς· ἀλλὰ νῦν ἔχων βαλλάντιον ἀράτω, ὁμοίως καὶ πήραν, καὶ μὴ ἔχων πωλησάτω τὸ ἱμάτιον αὐτοῦ καὶ ἀγορασάτω μάχαιραν.


    Let's not re-write Holy Scripture.

  3. #3
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    Re: Jesus did not arm His disciples with swords.

    Quote Originally Posted by keck553 View Post
    Wrong.


    Strong's Transliteration Greek English Morphology
    3004 [e] eipen εἶπεν He said V-AIA-3S
    1161 [e] de δὲ therefore Conj
    846 [e] autois αὐτοῖς to them, PPro-DM3P
    235 [e] Alla Ἀλλὰ however Conj
    3568 [e] nyn νῦν now Adv
    3588 [e] ho ὁ the [one] Art-NMS
    2192 [e] echōn ἔχων who has V-PPA-NMS
    905 [e] ballantion βαλλάντιον a purse N-ANS
    142 [e] aratō ἀράτω let him take [it], V-AMA-3S
    3668 [e] homoiōs ὁμοίως likewise Adv
    2532 [e] kai καὶ also Conj
    4082 [e] pēran πήραν bag; N-AFS
    2532 [e] kai καὶ and Conj
    3588 [e] ho ὁ he who Art-NMS
    3361 [e] mē μὴ not Adv
    2192 [e] echōn ἔχων has [one], V-PPA-NMS
    4453 [e] pōlēsatō πωλησάτω let him sell V-AMA-3S
    3588 [e] to τὸ the Art-ANS
    2440 [e] himation ἱμάτιον cloak N-ANS
    846 [e] autou αὐτοῦ of him, PPro-GM3S
    2532 [e] kai καὶ and Conj
    59 [e] agorasatō ἀγορασάτω buy V-AMA-3S
    3162 [e] machairan μάχαιραν a sword; N-AFS



    ΚΑΤΑ ΛΟΥΚΑΝ 22:36 Greek NT: Westcott/Hort with Diacritics
    εἶπεν δὲ αὐτοῖς· ἀλλὰ νῦν ὁ ἔχων βαλλάντιον ἀράτω, ὁμοίως καὶ πήραν, καὶ ὁ μὴ ἔχων πωλησάτω τὸ ἱμάτιον αὐτοῦ καὶ ἀγορασάτω μάχαιραν.

    εἶπεν οὖν αὐτοῖς· Ἀλλὰ νῦν ὁ ἔχων βαλάντιον ἀράτω, ὁμοίως καὶ πήραν, καὶ ὁ μὴ ἔχων πωλήσει τὸ ἱμάτιον αὐτοῦ καὶ ἀγοράσει μάχαιραν.
    ΚΑΤΑ ΛΟΥΚΑΝ 22:36 Greek NT: Tischendorf 8th Ed. with Diacritics
    ὁ δὲ εἶπεν αὐτοῖς· ἀλλὰ νῦν ὁ ἔχων βαλλάντιον ἀράτω, ὁμοίως καὶ πήραν, καὶ ὁ μὴ ἔχων πωλησάτω τὸ ἱμάτιον αὐτοῦ καὶ ἀγορασάτω μάχαιραν.
    ΚΑΤΑ ΛΟΥΚΑΝ 22:36 Greek NT: Stephanus Textus Receptus (1550, with accents)
    εἶπεν οὖν αὐτοῖς Ἀλλὰ νῦν ὁ ἔχων βαλάντιον ἀράτω ὁμοίως καὶ πήραν καὶ ὁ μὴ ἔχων πωλησάτω τὸ ἱμάτιον αὐτοῦ καὶ ἀγορασάτω μάχαιραν
    ΚΑΤΑ ΛΟΥΚΑΝ 22:36 Greek NT: Byzantine/Majority Text (2000)
    ειπεν ουν αυτοις αλλα νυν ο εχων βαλαντιον αρατω ομοιως και πηραν και ο μη εχων πωλησει το ιματιον αυτου και αγορασει μαχαιραν
    ΚΑΤΑ ΛΟΥΚΑΝ 22:36 Greek NT: Textus Receptus (1894)
    ειπεν ουν αυτοις αλλα νυν ο εχων βαλαντιον αρατω ομοιως και πηραν και ο μη εχων πωλησατω το ιματιον αυτου και αγορασατω μαχαιραν εἶπεν δὲ αὐτοῖς· ἀλλὰ νῦν ἔχων βαλλάντιον ἀράτω, ὁμοίως καὶ πήραν, καὶ μὴ ἔχων πωλησάτω τὸ ἱμάτιον αὐτοῦ καὶ ἀγορασάτω μάχαιραν.


    Let's not re-write Holy Scripture.
    Even those who stand by the the sword translation admit that Jesus didn't actually say it in the Greek text. .

  4. #4
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    Re: Jesus did not arm His disciples with swords.

    Quote Originally Posted by episkopos View Post
    Even those who stand by the the sword translation admit that Jesus didn't actually say it in the Greek text. .
    My GREEK version has "sword" in it in Greek text, not in English. If you want to claim the Greek word "sword" was added Luke's words by someone, say it, and we'll go from there. But the translation is accurate to the Greek text in every version - "sword" is clearly mentioned in Greek text in Luke's Gospel.

  5. #5

    Re: Jesus did not arm His disciples with swords.

    Quote Originally Posted by episkopos View Post
    Peter says they have two swords. Jesus said "It is enough."
    Yes, no matter how one wants to see it 2 swords anough, meaning to me, He was NOT being literal about the swords.
    If He was being literal,He would have said,'But we are 12, go and buy 10 more!'

  6. #6
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    Re: Jesus did not arm His disciples with swords.

    Quote Originally Posted by tea View Post
    Yes, no matter how one wants to see it 2 swords anough, meaning to me, He was NOT being literal about the swords.
    If He was being literal,He would have said,'But we are 12, go and buy 10 more!'
    Let's stick to the OP's assertion that "swords" were added to the english translation.

  7. #7
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    Re: Jesus did not arm His disciples with swords.

    Quote Originally Posted by episkopos View Post
    Even those who stand by the the sword translation admit that Jesus didn't actually say it in the Greek text. .
    Jesus did not use the English word “sword;” He used the Greek word μάχαιραν, a word that, when used literally, always means ‘sword’ (usually a short one) or a ‘dagger.’ Keck553 proved that Jesus used this word in Luke 22:36 by quoting Luke 22:36 in five prominent Greek texts of the New Testament. Had he quoted from the 27th edition of the Nestle-Aland Greek text or the 4th edition of the United Bible Societies’ Greek text (the two current Greek texts of the New Testament), the result would have been the same.
    Last edited by Jemand; Mar 14th 2012 at 03:07 AM. Reason: comma added

  8. #8

    Re: Jesus did not arm His disciples with swords.

    Quote Originally Posted by tea View Post
    Yes, no matter how one wants to see it 2 swords anough, meaning to me, He was NOT being literal about the swords.
    If He was being literal,He would have said,'But we are 12, go and buy 10 more!'
    or perhaps Jesus meant that 10 had to be the pacifists, while the other two had to go defend the cowards.

    Hey guys, we are about to be met by a large well-armed angry mob, so fight among yourselves as to who has the two swords to defend themselves.

    It seems pretty clear to me, that the only purpose of them having the swords was to fulfil the scripture, the He would be numbered among the transgressors.

  9. #9
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    Re: Jesus did not arm His disciples with swords.

    Quote Originally Posted by keck553 View Post
    My GREEK version has "sword" in it in Greek text, not in English. If you want to claim the Greek word "sword" was added Luke's words by someone, say it, and we'll go from there. But the translation is accurate to the Greek text in every version - "sword" is clearly mentioned in Greek text in Luke's Gospel.
    I'm no expert in Greek but the text the KJV is translated from does not have the Greek word for sword being used by Jesus. Check E-sword (how ironic! ) to see what I mean.

    I also looked at a few commentaries that admit that the word Sword does not appear where translators have put it.

    Peter does say...we have 2 swords in v38 to which Jesus replies..it is enough!

    Where did they get swords from when there is clearly no reference to swords other than there. Jesus said that those who live by the sword would die by the sword. This does not make sense with someone who would then exhort His followers to arm themselves.

    I see it as the disciples having swords or knives in order to cut fish open or whatever...NOT for the purpose of self-defense.

    The context is about having the necessary money and food.

  10. #10

    Re: Jesus did not arm His disciples with swords.

    Quote Originally Posted by episkopos View Post
    Jesus said that those who live by the sword would die by the sword. This does not make sense with someone who would then exhort His followers to arm themselves. I see it as the disciples having swords or knives in order to cut fish open or whatever...NOT for the purpose of self-defense.

    The context is about having the necessary money and food.
    But if you look at the text immediately before this, it states that one of the disciples drew out his sword and struck the slave of the high priest, cutting off his ear. It's not likely this was a tackle box item.

  11. #11
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    Re: Jesus did not arm His disciples with swords.

    Quote Originally Posted by episkopos View Post
    I'm no expert in Greek but the text the KJV is translated from does not have the Greek word for sword being used by Jesus. Check E-sword (how ironic! ) to see what I mean.
    I checked the E-sword program, and I read Luke 22:36 in the 1550 Greek text by Stephens, the Greek text that is the closest printed Greek text to the Greek text from which the New Testament in the King James Version was translated, and the last word in Luke 22:36 in that text is μάχαιραν, a word that, when used literally, always means ‘sword’ (usually a short one) or a ‘dagger.’ I compared this Greek text found in the E-sword program with a hardcopy of the same text and they read the same as each other. Please be more careful when posting information!

  12. #12

    Re: Jesus did not arm His disciples with swords.

    Quote Originally Posted by episkopos View Post
    Luk 22:36 ThenG3767 saidG2036 he unto them,G846 ButG235 now,G3568 he that hathG2192 a purse,G905 let him takeG142 it, andG2532 likewiseG3668 his(G2532) scrip:G4082 andG2532 he that hathG2192 noG3361 sword, let him sellG4453 hisG848 garment,G2440 andG2532 buyG59 one.(G3162) Luk 22:37 ForG1063 I sayG3004 unto you,G5213 thatG3754 thisG5124 that is writtenG1125 mustG1163 yetG2089 be accomplishedG5055 inG1722 me,G1698 AndG2532 he was reckonedG3049 amongG3326 the transgressors:G459 forG1063(G2532) the thingsG3588 concerningG4012 meG1700 haveG2192 an end.G5056 Luk 22:38 AndG1161 theyG3588 said,G2036 Lord,G2962 behold,G2400 hereG5602 are twoG1417 swords.G3162 AndG1161 heG3588 saidG2036 unto them,G846 It isG2076 enough.G2425 Jesus never said anything about buying a sword. If you look at the Greek there is no mention of a sword. Jesus is saying that if a person does not have a bag, he should sell his cloak to buy one. Jesus is contrasting how He first sent out His disciples to minister WITHOUT a purse of a bag. Luk_10:4 CarryG941 neitherG3361 purse,G905 norG3361 scrip,G4082 norG3366 shoes:G5266 andG2532 saluteG782 no manG3367 byG2596 theG3588 way.G3598 This is proved again...Luk_22:35 AndG2532 he saidG2036 unto them,G846 WhenG3753 I sentG649 youG5209 withoutG817 purse,G905 andG2532 scrip,G4082 andG2532 shoes,G5266(G3361) lackedG5302 ye any thing?G5100 AndG1161 theyG3588 said,G2036 Nothing.G3762 Jesus said...Luke 22:36 ThenG3767 saidG2036 he unto them,G846 ButG235 now,G3568 he that hathG2192 a purse,G905 let him takeG142 it, andG2532 likewiseG3668 his(G2532) scrip:G4082 andG2532 he that hathG2192 noG3361 sword, let him sellG4453 hisG848 garment,G2440 andG2532 buyG59 one.(G3162) No mention of swords. The word sword has been added to the text in the translation.The word sword was added in the translations because of the mention of swords later. Peter says they have two swords. Jesus said "It is enough."It is enough to sell these (swords) in order to buy what they previously didn't have. Jesus did not go "Che Guevera" on us. People gave things to the disciples....and among the things they had were two swords. Unless you think that Jesus was a weapons collector. Jesus actually spoke against having weapons. He sent out His followers as sheep among wolves. It is an error to put words in Jesus' mouth that He never said. The error is compounded in the thinking that Jesus was doing an arms distribution among his followers.
    The passage says "Sword," but there is no mention of sword? Logic at its finest.I am still trying to figure out why a peace lover like yourself feels so compelled to try to push peoples buttons on here and keep stuff stirred up about your doctrine of cowardice. If I believed what you say you do, I would pray for all us warmongering heathens. I definitely would not try to rile us up and attempt to incite anger in our feeble brains. I cant figure you out. You are a peace lover, and all you have done the last few days is accuse people of being unsaved and attempt to provoke them to wrath. Seems a bit hypocritical to me.

  13. #13
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    Re: Jesus did not arm His disciples with swords.

    The very literal American Standard Version reads,

    Luke 22:36 And he said unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise a wallet; and he that hath none, let him sell his cloak, and buy a sword.

    The even more literal translation by Robert Young, Young’s Literal Translation of the Holy Bible, reads,

    Luke 22:36 Then said he to them, ‘But, now, he who is having a bag, let him take it up, and in like manner also a scrip; and he who is not having, let him sell his garment, and buy a sword,’

    Young’s translation is faithful to the Greek in omitting the word ‘sword’ after the second occurrence of the word ‘having’ (not having [a sword]) and including it after the second occurrence of the word ‘a’ (buy a sword) at the end of the sentence. We are wasting a lot of time on this because some people are not being careful in reading the Greek text before commenting upon it.

  14. #14

    Re: Jesus did not arm His disciples with swords.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jemand View Post
    The very literal American Standard Version reads,

    Luke 22:36 And he said unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise a wallet; and he that hath none, let him sell his cloak, and buy a sword.

    The even more literal translation by Robert Young, Young’s Literal Translation of the Holy Bible, reads,

    Luke 22:36 Then said he to them, ‘But, now, he who is having a bag, let him take it up, and in like manner also a scrip; and he who is not having, let him sell his garment, and buy a sword,’

    Young’s translation is faithful to the Greek in omitting the word ‘sword’ after the second occurrence of the word ‘having’ (not having [a sword]) and including it after the second occurrence of the word ‘a’ (buy a sword) at the end of the sentence. We are wasting a lot of time on this because some people are not being careful in reading the Greek text before commenting upon it.
    Not only that but Jesus liked Ninja swords because they are cool

  15. #15
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    Re: Jesus did not arm His disciples with swords.

    Quote Originally Posted by WSGAC View Post
    But if you look at the text immediately before this, it states that one of the disciples drew out his sword and struck the slave of the high priest, cutting off his ear. It's not likely this was a tackle box item.

    A knife for a fisherman...a sword for a soldier. Which was Peter? A man can cut off somebody's ear with a knife. Would the Romans have allowed Jews to walk around with battle swords??? Regardless

    Notice what Jesus said...

    Mat_26:52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

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