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Thread: Jesus did not arm His disciples with swords.

  1. #46

    Re: Jesus did not arm His disciples with swords.

    Quote Originally Posted by keck553 View Post
    I also have two fire extinguishers at home that I never used. Is that also a sham?
    No, for you don’t know if it will be needed or not.
    Unless you are God and know what is ahead of you.

  2. #47
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    Re: Jesus did not arm His disciples with swords.

    Quote Originally Posted by Caleb View Post
    No, for you don’t know if it will be needed or not.
    Unless you are God and know what is ahead of you.
    So if tools to extinguish a fire is not a sham, then neither are tools kept for self-defense, because I don't know if either will be needed or not. I am not God and I don't know what is ahead of me. So be prepared. Makes sense to me.

  3. #48
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    Re: Jesus did not arm His disciples with swords.

    I see what you are saying.

    Clarke's commentary quotes Bishop Pearce who says it is not in the original.

    However i fail to see it. I assume you that this is important because you are hoping to end the debate about self defense? But they had swords later with which to defend Jesus. (coincidentally probably the only truly "just war" ever fought and it was met with a stern rebuke from our Lord.) But the fact that they had swords would seem to prove the validity of this verse as is.

  4. #49
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    Re: Jesus did not arm His disciples with swords.

    Quote Originally Posted by Caleb View Post
    How does that number Him being among the transgressors?

    Was He numbered among transgressors when He was with the tax collector, or when He was with the adulteress etc…

    What does it mean to be numbered with? Read Numbers!

    They were His disciples and He was numbered among them. When they carried the swords they were then classed as transgressors.
    Luke 22
    36Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.
    37For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, "And he was reckoned among the transgressors": for the things concerning me have an end.
    38And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough.

    Reading Luke you may think quickly to assume that he being reckoned among the transgressors meant him being found among the disciples wielding swords.
    As the case is these prophecies were comming to a close and among this prophecy were these things. That Jesus would lose none of his disciples, and that he would be numbered among the transgressors. Because all would forsake him in that hour when they were left to do as they pleased.

    As it were in this case it is not the meaning of being numbered among transgressors that is my point.
    What is my point is that it was a prophecy which was fullfilled as shown below...

    Mark 15
    27And with him they crucify two thieves; the one on his right hand, and the other on his left.
    28And the scripture was fulfilled, which saith, And he was numbered with the transgressors.

    So then should we accept the idea that in the specific passage of Luke 22:37, is to mean that disciples who wield swords are transgressors ? I do not think this is the case.

  5. #50
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    Re: Jesus did not arm His disciples with swords.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zack702 View Post
    Luke 22
    36Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.
    37For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, "And he was reckoned among the transgressors": for the things concerning me have an end.
    38And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough.

    Reading Luke you may think quickly to assume that he being reckoned among the transgressors meant him being found among the disciples wielding swords.
    As the case is these prophecies were comming to a close and among this prophecy were these things. That Jesus would lose none of his disciples, and that he would be numbered among the transgressors. Because all would forsake him in that hour when they were left to do as they pleased.

    As it were in this case it is not the meaning of being numbered among transgressors that is my point.
    What is my point is that it was a prophecy which was fullfilled as shown below...

    Mark 15
    27And with him they crucify two thieves; the one on his right hand, and the other on his left.
    28And the scripture was fulfilled, which saith, And he was numbered with the transgressors.

    So then should we accept the idea that in the specific passage of Luke 22:37, is to mean that disciples who wield swords are transgressors ? I do not think this is the case.
    Bingo. Jesus identified with sinners when He was baptized and Jesus was counted among sinners when He was crucified.

  6. #51
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    Re: Jesus did not arm His disciples with swords.

    Quote Originally Posted by episkopos View Post
    This is about a spirit not a physical thing. Do you see the difference in spirit between say...Genghis Khan and Francis of Assissi?
    I agree completely with this.

    And I do hope that there is no need for sword fighting.

    When it comes to the word sword or any other words that were possibly added to Luke I have no arguement there because I simply do not know.

  7. #52
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    Re: Jesus did not arm His disciples with swords.

    This is a marvelous example of rewriting the Bible to suit one's agenda.

    Obviously Jesus is contrasting the situation that is about to be, with earlier when He directed his followers to go out with nothing, relying only upon God, and others for provision and protection. He is telling them in the future they will need to provide for themselves. So go out and get the things a person would ordinarily travel with in those days, including a sword. The plain meaning of this is clear.

    There is NO documented armed insurrection by Christ's followers in the first few hundred years of the church. Christians went to exemplary deaths WITHOUT seeking to defend themselves. Do a little research on this.
    This has nothing to do with armed insurrections. That's a bit hyperbolic. It has to do with being pragmatic in a real world.

    And yes, Paul used ARMED guards for protection at least once, with the aim of preventing violence (it worked). Nothing in the Bible suggests he was wrong to do so.
    In Christ,

    -- Rev

    “To preserve the government we must also preserve morals. Morality rests on religion; if you destroy the foundation, the superstructure must fall. When the public mind becomes vitiated and corrupt, laws are a nullity and constitutions are waste paper.” – Daniel Webster, 4th of July, 1800, Oration at Hanover, N.H.

  8. #53

    Re: Jesus did not arm His disciples with swords.

    Quote Originally Posted by RevLogos View Post
    This is a marvelous example of rewriting the Bible to suit one's agenda.

    Obviously Jesus is contrasting the situation that is about to be, with earlier when He directed his followers to go out with nothing, relying only upon God, and others for provision and protection. He is telling them in the future they will need to provide for themselves. So go out and get the things a person would ordinarily travel with in those days, including a sword. The plain meaning of this is clear.



    This has nothing to do with armed insurrections. That's a bit hyperbolic. It has to do with being pragmatic in a real world.

    And yes, Paul used ARMED guards for protection at least once, with the aim of preventing violence (it worked). Nothing in the Bible suggests he was wrong to do so.
    A rare occasion of self defense with a sword seems plausible. Christ sending out disciples with swords to slay people for whatever reason does not. "Love God. Love People" were Christs commandments.

  9. #54

    Re: Jesus did not arm His disciples with swords.

    Quote Originally Posted by DDGresham1 View Post
    Christ sending out disciples with swords to slay people for whatever reason does not. "Love God. Love People" were Christs commandments.
    Complete insanity! The weapons were always for self defense!

  10. #55
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    Re: Jesus did not arm His disciples with swords.

    Quote Originally Posted by episkopos View Post
    Unless our e-swords are different we have a discrepency hereHere is what the online version says...Luk 22:36 ThenG3767 saidG2036 he unto them,G846 ButG235 now,G3568 he that hathG2192 a purse,G905 let him takeG142 it, andG2532 likewiseG3668 his(G2532) scrip:G4082 andG2532 he that hathG2192 noG3361 sword, let him sellG4453 hisG848 garment,G2440 andG2532 buyG59 one.(G3162) Notice bracketed item has been added by translatorsThe last entry is in brackets because it is assumed to be there to try to make sense of the text by the translators. It is not in the original Greek. Please be more careful when trying to correct a correction.
    This is not the Greek text most often used by the translators of the King James Version; indeed, it is not a Greek text at all! It is the text of the 1769 edition of the King James Version with the Greek words from which the English words were translated. The King James Version transposes parts of the sentence, as do most contemporary translation, and the result is that the English translation of the Greek word μάχαιρα is transposed from being the last word in the Greek sentence to being in the middle of the English sentence, following the words “not having.” The consequence is that Strong’s number, G3162, for looking up the Greek word in his lexicon found at the back of his concordance is bracketed because the Greek word μάχαιρα is not found at the end of the sentence, but in the middle of the sentence.

    Luke 22:36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. (King James Version).

    However, when we look at a translation of the Greek that does not transpose the word ‘sword, we find,

    Luke 22:36 Then said he to them, “But, now, he who is having a bag, let him take it up, and in like manner also a scrip; and he who is not having, let him sell his garment, and buy a sword,” (Young’s Literal Translation)

    Luke 22:36 Then said he to them, “But, now, he who is having a bag, let him take it up, and in like manner also a scrip; and he who is not having, let him sell his garment, and buy a sword G3162,” (Young’s Literal Translation with Strong’s number)

    If you will download the Textus Receptus E-sword module and install it in your E-sword program, you will find out that we are telling you the truth and that you have been posting nothing but nonsense.

  11. #56
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    Re: Jesus did not arm His disciples with swords.

    I would have to agree with this analasys.
    Quote Originally Posted by jesse View Post
    But they had swords later with which to defend Jesus. (coincidentally probably the only truly "just war" ever fought and it was met with a stern rebuke from our Lord.) But the fact that they had swords would seem to prove the validity of this verse as is.
    Don't seek too much knowledge. You just may be putting more weight on your shoulders than you're able to bare. Let God be the one to decide how quickly you grow.

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    Re: Jesus did not arm His disciples with swords.

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Self defense isn't violence.
    Did Jesus defend Himself? Did the early Christians defend themselves? Do sheep defend themselves? What about lambs? Do they fight back?

    Of what spirit are you really?

  13. #58
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    Re: Jesus did not arm His disciples with swords.

    Quote Originally Posted by keck553 View Post
    You're avoiding the truth. One more time, your presentations haven't changed anyone's hearts or minds with this doctrine.

    And I know why. Do you? It's obvious.
    You have received a lifetime worth of indoctrination and conditioning that goes against the new nature in Christ. Becoming a Christian is the first step on a long road to walking exactly as Jesus walked...in the same Spirit and power.

    Many will not choose the narrow road but will go the way of their previous conditioning. This is what is obvious here.

  14. #59
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    Re: Jesus did not arm His disciples with swords.

    Violence begets violence. The violent will not inherit the kingdom. We are to be as harmless as doves and lambs. Natural born killers will have a hard time on the road to life. Our Western conditioning will stop most of us from being able to follow Christ in truth. We will have to completely be renewed in our minds. Never has this renewal been more important than in our times. We have MORE garbage to sort out than any other generation in history. The level of smugness to this reality is directly proportional to the wrath that awaits the sons of disobedience. But we smirk and say we will be fine.

  15. #60
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    Re: Jesus did not arm His disciples with swords.

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Thayer's is perfectly accurate and is newer than what most people here read as their bible translation.
    By the early 1900’s, the new studies in the lexicography of Koine Greek had become so great in number and significance that Erwin Preuschen published his Greek-German lexicon in 1910. Upon his death in 1920, the revision of his lexicon was entrusted to Walter Bauer and this revision was published in 1928 as the second edition. In 1930, James Hope Mouton and George Milligan independently published The Vocabulary of the Greek Testament. A thoroughly revised edition of the Preuschen lexicon was published in 1937 with only Bauer’s name on the title page. Bauer realized, however, that his lexicon, although a huge improvement over Thayer’s in terms of accuracy and completeness, needed to be thoroughly revised and updated and therefore undertook a thorough search of all Greek literature down to the Byzantine times to determine more precisely the meaning of the words found in the New Testament. This resulted in the publication of the monumental work, Griechisch-Deutsches Wörterbuch zu den Schriften des Neuen Testaments und der übrigen urchristlichen Literatur in 1949-1952. An English translation (by William F. Arndt and F. Wilbur Gingrich) of this lexicon was published by the University of Chicago in 1957 with the title, Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and other Early Christian Literature and became widely known as the “Bauer, Arndt, and Gingrich Lexicon.” A second edition was published by the University of Chicago in 1979. A thorough revision by Frederick William Danker was published by the University of Chicago in 2000. It is very commonly referred to simply as “BDAG” and this name appears on the title page in parenthesis below the full title.

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