Jesus did not arm His disciples with swords.

[episkopos]

Just because 2 was enough does not equal that one for each man was too much.

If 2 is enough than 11 is too many. Enough means enough! To be overzealous is as bad as being under zealous. Obedience is better.


So where are the designated gunmen?

Maybe the security guards who gun down people at the church building entrance?

[episkopos]

When justified of course. You should have already understood that from reading through this thread and all the people's replies.

How can there be a justification for something that Jesus forbids?

[ewq1938]

If 2 is enough than 11 is too many.

Incorrect.

So since you oppose violence so much I hope that you will correct Christ and his army when they come to teach them proper morals. Until then you can also visit military bases and police stations around the country and correct their mistakes as well.

[ewq1938]

How can there be a justification for something that Jesus forbids?

Jesus does not forbid it.

[episkopos]

Jesus does not forbid it.

Show us where He condones any violence from His followers.

[episkopos]

Incorrect.

So since you oppose violence so much I hope that you will correct Christ and his army when they come to teach them proper morals. Until then you can also visit military bases and police stations around the country and correct their mistakes as well.

You are confusing the future with the present. I do hope one day to be able to correct the false trust of modern Christians in the military industrial complex.

[RevLogos]

I also own guns. The issue is whether we are to use them on people rather than targets or deer. Do you advocate shooting people or not?

I agree with the use of deadly force in certain limited circumstances, namely to stop a deadly attack on the innocent. Use of deadly force in a self-defense situation has nothing to do with vengeance.

Vengeance is the Lord's, as we all agree. We see that in Romans 12. However, take a look at Romans 13:

Rom 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. [KJV]

So what is Paul saying? Who is the "he" in this verse? It is the State (King, civil magistrate, etc.). The Lord can delegate vengeance to the State.

[episkopos]

Luk 9:54 And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did?
Luk 9:55 But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.
Luk 9:56 For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village.

Jesus did not say...no airstrikes this time...he rebuked them asking what spirit they were of.

Modern Christians will mostly ignore this warning to their own peril. Those who advocate taking lives will lose their own lives at judgment. Jesus came to save the world. The time of grace is not over yet. We are to give our lives to save others...not kill.

[episkopos]

If a non-Christian thought Jesus was come to kill people....rather than save them...would you quote

Luk 9:56 For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them.

What about Jesus coming to kill with the sword of His mouth? Does Jesus change?

[episkopos]

The truth is that we are living in the time of the grace of God. God will judge the world....but we are trying to win people to Christ BEFORE that time. God's hand is waiting for men to come to their senses before He pours out His wrath.

It seems like the church has jumped the gun and already started to judge the world. Will not God demand justice on these judges who refuse to lay down their lives in obedience to Christ?

[episkopos]

I agree with the use of deadly force in certain limited circumstances, namely to stop a deadly attack on the innocent. Use of deadly force in a self-defense situation has nothing to do with vengeance.

Vengeance is the Lord's, as we all agree. We see that in Romans 12. However, take a look at Romans 13:

Rom 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. [KJV]

So what is Paul saying? Who is the "he" in this verse? It is the State (King, civil magistrate, etc.). The Lord can delegate vengeance to the State.

Who is judging what is justifiable? Are we led by our own instincts and worldly conditioning from TV or the Holy Spirit.

Will we receive a sign from heaven with a vision of a big sword saying...kill kill kill?

[ewq1938]

Show us where He condones any violence from His followers.

Revelation 19 .

[ewq1938]

You are confusing the future with the present. I do hope one day to be able to correct the false trust of modern Christians in the military industrial complex.

God's chosen people have always had an army.

[ewq1938]

Luk 9:54 And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did?
Luk 9:55 But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.
Luk 9:56 For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village.

Jesus did not say...no airstrikes this time...he rebuked them asking what spirit they were of.

Mat_10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

[keck553]

You have received a lifetime worth of indoctrination and conditioning that goes against the new nature in Christ. Becoming a Christian is the first step on a long road to walking exactly as Jesus walked...in the same Spirit and power.

Many will not choose the narrow road but will go the way of their previous conditioning. This is what is obvious here.

Please do not preach to me.

Thank you