Jesus did not arm His disciples with swords.

[ewq1938]

Ah, yes, I see that post 64 has the verses you think are relevant to defend your view that we must obey the laws of man over the laws of God.

No, it is God's commandment to obey the rule of these governments because HE has ordained them!

Then my post brings up another which I think is also relevant to the discussion.

So, do we try to somehow reconcile the verses, or is it just business as usual - refusing and rejecting any verses that do not fit in with our manmade construct?

This doesn't apply to me.

[ewq1938]

The spirit which animates the "patriotic American Christianity" is the exact same spirit that animated the Nazi's.

That's one of the most offensive things I have ever read on the forum! I am reporting this post to the administration.

[keck553]

I have to question- if Jesus Himself was not even permitted to use force to stop a deadly attack, what makes us so secure in calling ourselves His disciples if we think we are permitted it?

Question, please this is not sarcasm -

Did God send each of us here to become the sinless Lamb crucified before the foundation of the world?

[awestruckchild]

[QUOTE=keck553;2822838]I have yet to read one poster here justify self-defense or warfare with "vengence," yet that word is so misused and flippantly tossed about around here. Sorry, 'vengence' simply is out of context unless someone states vengence is specifically their motive. Using "vengence' as a talking point out of context will always cause the message to be dead on arrival. No one can convict another of a sin when that sin does not exist. Make sense?


I think so...so maybe we should use a different word than vengeance. Maybe "defense" would be a better word and less confusing. Instead of saying that Jesus taught us that we are not to slap someone back in vengeance, we should say we don't slap them back in defense of ourselves. In my mind, they are kind of the same, but we do tend to have different interpretations for different words, don't we? I see the slapping back as getting vengeance for what they did, where others see it as self defense. So changing the word is okay. But whether they slap you, spit on you, hang you on a cross, steal something from you, or fly a plane into one of your buildings, the question then becomes, how do you turn the other cheek to them as He commanded? (You cracked me up in the other thread, by the way! Paying for gas for those gasbags, sheesh!)

[keck553]

That's one of the most offensive things I have ever read on the forum! I am reporting this post to the administration.

I agree. That is an affront to all those who gave their lives to stop that evil, the soldiers, the airmen, the sailors. It is an offense to those who were sent to concentration camps for various religious and political beliefs. It is also an affront to those Jews (and I know one) who suffered under the boot of Nazi domination.

This is a slur on well over 20 million victims of that evil. There is no excuse for it.

To be honest, I've seen more verbal violence and abuse come from the mouths of self-proclaimed pacifists than anyone else around here.

[keck553]

I think so...so maybe we should use a different word than vengeance. Maybe "defense" would be a better word and less confusing. Instead of saying that Jesus taught us that we are not to slap someone back in vengeance, we should say we don't slap them back in defense of ourselves.

Being slapped is no cause for self-defense. Being raped is.

In my mind, they are kind of the same, but we do tend to have different interpretations for different words, don't we? I see the slapping back as getting vengeance for what they did, where others see it as self defense. So changing the word is okay. But whether they slap you, spit on you, hang you on a cross, steal something from you, or fly a plane into one of your buildings, the question then becomes, how do you turn the other cheek to them as He commanded? (You cracked me up in the other thread, by the way! Paying for gas for those gasbags, sheesh!)

I beleive your application is out of context to Jesus' teaching. Please consider -

-Prayer

-God does not contradict Himself (ALL Scripture is profitable for doctrine)
-Interpret unclear passages in the light of those which are clear. If a passage seems to contradict other passages, the intepretation is in error. Use cross references to consult other verses which deal with the same subject in a simpler way. Then bring the unclear into conformity with the clear.

- A specific doctrine must incorporate everything the Bible has to say about it. Let Scripture teach Scripture.

- Interpret every passage in light of its immediate context (preceding and following verses, paragraph, chapter) and broad context (book, testament, Bible). A verse lifted out of its context can become a pretext. It is not as easy to twist the meaning of a verse when it is observed in its setting.

- Be sure to consider the cultural and historical setting. This, along with customs and geography, provides the proper backdrop to assist you in understanding the portion of Scripture you are studying. Ask yourself the question, "What did this passage mean to the people of that time and culture?"

[RevLogos]

I have to question- if Jesus Himself was not even permitted to use force to stop a deadly attack, what makes us so secure in calling ourselves His disciples if we think we are permitted it? And please, don't anyone else get angry at me for expressing my beliefs on what He meant when He spoke. If Jesus had followed the advice you give here, using force only to stop a deadly attack, where in God's name would we be right now? It reminds me of when I used to get my dad good and mad at me whining about how so and so's parents let THEM do it, and he would turn red and the vein would pop out in his neck and he'd say: I don't care what their parents allow them to do! You are MY daughter and I'm telling you you aren't allowed to do it!

Jesus relied on God (umm, himself) to escape from deadly situations. It happened several times where he mysteriously managed to slip away from an angry mob. And by the way there is noting wrong with avoiding violence; it is obviously preferable. But the self-defense situations we're talking about are where leaving the scene isn't an option. If God gave me a way to escape believe me I'd take it.

In the Garden at the arrest, he rebuked Peter and said:

Mat 26:53 Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels?

He is saying it would be perfectly within his rights to use force. But he doesn't. But not because using force is inherently wrong. He explains why in the next verse:

Mat 26:54 But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen in this way?"

The arrest in the garden does not make a case for pacifism for three reasons: 1) It was an arrest by government officials, not an attack by an angry mob. 2) His life was not in danger, and 3) Prophesy had to be fulfilled.

[awestruckchild]

Question, please this is not sarcasm -

Did God send each of us here to become the sinless Lamb crucified before the foundation of the world?

Well...question for you first!
Are we to be, and being, changed more and more into the likeness of His Son?
And what does it mean to share in His sufferings?
And one more - how do we take someone to court to defend ourselves and then give them our other cheek and our coat as well? Where in the court process does the giving them our coat as well come in?
And please understand me when I say that I am a miserable failure most days at following Him as I should. It is very, very, hard to not stand up for myself when I am being poorly treated or abused or stepped all over. My first reaction, even before I have time to think, is to respond with the same hatred that is being dished out to me and to defend myself. But I can at least admit my hypocrisy and failure and sorrow at being this wretched failure and not being able to obey his command to me. I'd rather be an honest failure than to grade myself on a curve and lower the standard He expects of me in order to feel good about myself when I can obviously see that I am not good or obedient. I feel a whole lot better about admitting my failure and weakness in honesty than in pretending I must be most pleasing to Him. It's like the guy beating his chest in sorrow at what a sinner he is versus the one praying his thanks that he isn't like the other sinners. I want the truth about myself with unceasing tears rather than a lie and peace of mind.

[keck553]

Jesus relied on God (umm, himself) to escape from deadly situations. It happened several times where he mysteriously managed to slip away from an angry mob. And by the way there is noting wrong with avoiding violence; it is obviously preferable. But the self-defense situations we're talking about are where leaving the scene isn't an option. If God gave me a way to escape believe me I'd take it.

Indeed. You made a very, very good point about avoiding violence, and situaltional awareness is definately a preliminaryt to self defense, and yes, we should avoid trouble.

As you stated, 1 Cor 10:13 assures us that if we are tempted to sin, God is faithful and will provide a way for us to escape. In a situation where one must defend themself where there is no escape - then by God's own Word He would be lying if proper use of force in self defense was a sin.

[awestruckchild]

That's one of the most offensive things I have ever read on the forum! I am reporting this post to the administration.

I also will report it and demand that they give you a gold star of veracity!!

[keck553]

Well...question for you first!
Are we to be, and being, changed more and more into the likeness of His Son?

How far do you want to go with that? Are we to wear Teffilin, Tsitzit, keep the feasts, keep a Kasrut diet, and go to the Synagogue on Shabbat? That is what Jesus did. What about when He returns? Are you prepared for your robe to be drenched in the blood of His enemies as His will be? Are you prepared to watch the left behind have their flesh eaten by vultures? Are you prepared for your King to rule with a rod of iron? If you want to conform to God's image in every detail, then accept ALL of His character, not just the character God displayed in the role of the suffering Servant.

And what does it mean to share in His sufferings?

A lot that doesn't include being a victim of a man who is dead in his transgressions. Not being raped. Not being murdered. Not allowing the child GOD put in your care to be murdered, raped or assulted. We are to be stewards of His gifts, not neglect them.

And one more - how do we take someone to court to defend ourselves and then give them our other cheek and our coat as well? Where in the court process does the giving them our coat as well come in?

I already tried to explain the context of His teaching ^^^^^ above.

But here's some cultural context. Very few had more than one coat. Think about that.

[keck553]

I also will report it and demand that they give you a gold star of veracity!!

Really? Becasue this was how you responded to those posts:

Very, very, very well said, Neanias.

[amazzin]

Thread Closed....seems we have all shared our opinions. My opinion is we all need to step outside for a breath of fresh air