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Thread: The Old Testament in Revelation 20 (Why are there no "millennial" references?)

  1. #16
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    Re: The Old Testament in Revelation 20 (Why are there no "millennial" references?)

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    How about some examples then? Sort of hard to figure out where you're coming from if you give an opinion without actually proving your point.
    Gimme an OT "millennial" passage, and I'll give you the NT fulfillment.
    analyze. synthesize. repeat.

    *It is the next chapter of my life, whether I'm ready or not. My time here in these forums has come to its close. I bless you as I go!*

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    Re: The Old Testament in Revelation 20 (Why are there no "millennial" references?)

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    Exactly! As a matter of fact I tend to see it as arrogant to see it otherwise. If Jesus was able to humble Himself and be a servant, then what makes us any better? We'll reign alright, just not yet.
    To me, it seems we are commanded to follow in His foot steps, and His foot steps were as Servant. And later, when His footstep are as ruling King of kings over all the earth, then, so will be ours, as ..imho...is stated in Revelation 20, and according to His ruling as per the many passages in the OT...(minus the time frame of 1000 years being stated in the OT)

    Mat 25:21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord....23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.

    Mar 9:35 And he sat down, and called the twelve, and saith unto them, If any man desire to be first, the same shall be last of all, and servant of all.

    Mar 10:44 And whosoever of you will be the chiefest, shall be servant of all.

    Idk, but the heart of a servant, with a complete giving up of personal desires, and with a heart to complete submission to the will of another, in our case to the will of Jesus, is a main priority of what Jesus gave example of, in His case, to the will of His Father...and what Jesus commands of those who would follow Him. One cannot rule until they have learned to serve...imho




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    Re: The Old Testament in Revelation 20 (Why are there no "millennial" references?)

    Quote Originally Posted by Nihil Obstat View Post
    Gimme an OT "millennial" passage, and I'll give you the NT fulfillment.
    I don't doubt that your interpretation sees them as fulfilled...my point is, I disagree. But it will derail this thread, so that option is up to the OP.




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    Re: The Old Testament in Revelation 20 (Why are there no "millennial" references?)

    Rulers serve. Jesus had over His cross "The King of the Jews".
    analyze. synthesize. repeat.

    *It is the next chapter of my life, whether I'm ready or not. My time here in these forums has come to its close. I bless you as I go!*

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    Re: The Old Testament in Revelation 20 (Why are there no "millennial" references?)

    Quote Originally Posted by Nihil Obstat View Post
    Rulers serve. Jesus had over His cross "The King of the Jews".
    King of the Jews....when He returns, He will be King not only the Jews/nation of Israel...but King over all nations...King of kings/Lord of lords

    Plus, this fulfilled prophecy regarding the suffering Messiah...the parts about the Messiah ruling over the entire earth, all nations, plus Jerusalem/Israel...are yet to be fulfilled. The means by which that is possible have been fulfilled, but not the realization upon the earth.

    That title on the cross makes Him the Means for fulfillment, the Means by which God will accomplish all that God has purposed to accomplished and declared to us within the pages of His Bible.




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    Re: The Old Testament in Revelation 20 (Why are there no "millennial" references?)

    Quote Originally Posted by Buddy View Post
    The prophetic visions [O.T. and N.T.] are a direct inspiration from the Lord himself, and not generated by the prophets themselves as you seem to imply
    Prophecy is the Lord's doing and not just what John or others of the prophets thought about things .... if you don't get this fact, you will never understand the grand and comprehensive sweep of His intent with His nation of Israel [past, present, and future]
    I think you misunderstood the OP. Of course the book of Revelation is first and foremost a vision from God, and John didn't make it up. But he did agree with it and ponder it at length before writing it down in the form of a letter. So it's no good making John a completely passive bystander. He was deeply involved in the whole process, from beginning to end, as were all the prophets of Israel's history whose collective visions form the canvas on which John intentionally paints his own vision.

    - Hitman


    "Test all things; hold fast what is good." - Advice from the Apostle Paul


  7. #22

    Re: The Old Testament in Revelation 20 (Why are there no "millennial" references?)

    The error held by those who think we are living in the millennial kingdom on the earth as the "church" should be obvious

    ..... the biblical description of the Lord's coming millennial kingdom is very different than conditions upon the earth, past and present

    The root of this controversy is simply this:

    Many teachers of professing christianity have and do refuse to accept the biblical fact that Israel and the church are different subjects of the Bible that run in parallel throughout the scriptures .... past, present, and future

    This comes from a dislike of Israel, pride of boasting against the nation, and a bold attempt to teach replacement theology thereby eliminating Israel from the landscape .... sweeping the facts under the rug

    There are teachers like Hank Hanegraaff, Ken Gentry, David Chilton and Gary Demar as individual examples and even large divisions and movements of professing christianity who have cornered themselves with their false teaching to the extent that they are not willing to give it up .... if they do they will loose all of their pseudo-credibility among there constituants

    The Lord's coming millennial kingdom is about the restoration of His national people where He will reign as Israel's Messiah and King .... Israel will be the center of this kingdom of mortals for 1000 years on the earth .... and then His eternal kingdom will begin with no ending to include a restored earth and universe to the condition of the original creation

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    Re: The Old Testament in Revelation 20 (Why are there no "millennial" references?)

    Quote Originally Posted by quiet dove View Post
    To me, it seems we are commanded to follow in His foot steps, and His foot steps were as Servant. And later, when His footstep are as ruling King of kings over all the earth, then, so will be ours, as ..imho...is stated in Revelation 20, and according to His ruling as per the many passages in the OT...(minus the time frame of 1000 years being stated in the OT)

    Mat 25:21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord....23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.

    Mar 9:35 And he sat down, and called the twelve, and saith unto them, If any man desire to be first, the same shall be last of all, and servant of all.

    Mar 10:44 And whosoever of you will be the chiefest, shall be servant of all.

    Idk, but the heart of a servant, with a complete giving up of personal desires, and with a heart to complete submission to the will of another, in our case to the will of Jesus, is a main priority of what Jesus gave example of, in His case, to the will of His Father...and what Jesus commands of those who would follow Him. One cannot rule until they have learned to serve...imho


    Since making the post you responded to, I then had another look at the following Scripture.

    2 Timothy 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:


    How should this be understood? If we suffer now, we will then reign with Him in the future when He returns? Or, if we suffer now we will then reign with Him now because He now reigns? If it's the latter, then it wouldn't be arrogant to reign with Him at all now, as I was first thinking. IOW a person could still be in servant mode, still be humble, and then still be reigning with Jesus the whole time. So the question once again is, should that verse be understood according to the former or the latter? If the latter, then my conclusion about it being arrogant to reign with Christ now would be in error. If the former tho, then it probably would be arrogant to think we reign now instead of serving.

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    Re: The Old Testament in Revelation 20 (Why are there no "millennial" references?)

    Looks like the thread got derailed fast. I'd love to see some responses to substance of the OP. It’s striking to me that we don’t find John quoting or alluding to any of those puzzling OT passages often labeled “millennial” when he recounts his vision of the thousand years, and it’s even more striking that some of those passages (like Ezekiel 40-48 and Isaiah 65, for instance) actually do come up when he recounts his vision of the new earth. What exegetical warrant is there for the premillennial portrait of an interim age of earthly paradise in Revelation 20 if John himself did not see it thus?

    - Hitman


    "Test all things; hold fast what is good." - Advice from the Apostle Paul


  10. #25

    Re: The Old Testament in Revelation 20 (Why are there no "millennial" references?)

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD
    IOW a person could still be in servant mode, still be humble, and then still be reigning with Jesus the whole time.
    This is exactly what the kingdom of God is defined as in Scripture. The kingdom is servitude. True rulers serve.

    To say something like 'And later, when His footstep are as ruling King of kings over all the earth, then, so will be ours' doesn't make any sense, because Jesus is king now. For Jesus to be king now means his kingdom is here now (which he and his Apostles say at least a few times over). If his kingdom is here now, we are serving in it now.

    I try not to get bent out of shape over previous posts of mine being missed... could you (or Quiet Dove) please respond to my last one? You each take the position that reigning with Jesus is solely future, and that nothing resembling the thousand years, let alone after the thousand years... even though Paul describes the present state of the Church in precisely the same way John describes either the thousand years or what follows after them.

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    Re: The Old Testament in Revelation 20 (Why are there no "millennial" references?)

    Quote Originally Posted by Matthehitmanhart View Post
    Looks like the thread got derailed fast. I'd love to see some responses to substance of the OP. It’s striking to me that we don’t find John quoting or alluding to any of those puzzling OT passages often labeled “millennial” when he recounts his vision of the thousand years, and it’s even more striking that some of those passages (like Ezekiel 40-48 and Isaiah 65, for instance) actually do come up when he recounts his vision of the new earth. What exegetical warrant is there for the premillennial portrait of an earthly paradise in Revelation 20 if John himself did not see it thus?


    Sometimes minor derailments are not always a bad thing, as long as we eventually get back on track. The passages in the OP, what are your interpretations of them then, since you don't think they fit premil? Particularly Isaiah 24:21-22 and Isaiah 27:1 in verses 1-3, the timing of these.

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    Re: The Old Testament in Revelation 20 (Why are there no "millennial" references?)

    Quote Originally Posted by markedward View Post

    I try not to get bent out of shape over previous posts of mine being missed... could you (or Quiet Dove) please respond to my last one?
    After I eat lunch I might try responding to that post. The following I will need to look into a little closer tho by rereading those passages. I take it that that is the post you were referring to, correct?


    Quote Originally Posted by markedward View Post
    If the promises of Revelation 2.26-27 and 3.21 are supposed to be fulfilled in the thousand years and beyond (which I think most of us agree on), this is precisely what Paul teaches is present for the Church (e.g. Ephesians 1.15-2.10, especially 2.5-7).

    Even post-millennial realities are taught as being present for the Church (compare Revelation 21.1-3 with 2 Corinthians 6.16-18, or Revelation 21.14 with Ephesians 2.19-22).

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    Re: The Old Testament in Revelation 20 (Why are there no "millennial" references?)

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    Since making the post you responded to, I then had another look at the following Scripture.

    2 Timothy 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:


    How should this be understood? If we suffer now, we will then reign with Him in the future when He returns? Or, if we suffer now we will then reign with Him now because He now reigns? If it's the latter, then it wouldn't be arrogant to reign with Him at all now, as I was first thinking. IOW a person could still be in servant mode, still be humble, and then still be reigning with Jesus the whole time. So the question once again is, should that verse be understood according to the former or the latter? If the latter, then my conclusion about it being arrogant to reign with Christ now would be in error. If the former tho, then it probably would be arrogant to think we reign now instead of serving.
    I don't know that arrogant is the thing so much as misunderstanding our current place. By place I mean, first things first...first learn, then reign, and serving is learning...learning full submission to our King. I think the desire is sincere, even if out of place. Personally, I find it difficult to rule over myself much less anyone else...

    I guess my take on it still relys on Jesus first advent versus His second. Maybe this will clarify more...Jesus never ceased being God the Son...yet He came as a Servant in full submission to His Father. Now, we in Him...are indeed in heavenly places with Him, and nothing can change who we are in Him, but like Him, in this mortal life, we are servants, learning full submission, being "perfected" through that learning process.

    At some point, like Him, we will be resurrected. We will be made incorruptible and immortal...only after having been fully perfected will we be able to reign with Him. We will be completely submissive, 100% obedient...and so on....right now we do good to keep ourselves reigned over much less anyone else.

    Plus, we are not told to 'reign' over others. We are told to preach the message of Life...now is the time of salvation thus the preaching of the Gospel, serving those who are not only believers, but those in need, anyone God places in our path...our goal not to rule over them, but to be a witness of the one who rules over us...a witness of His love and life through Him to any who will but accept.

    Later comes any ruling He may put us in place to do...later, when we are "perfected" for the service of ruling with Him. In other words, now is the suffering, this life...later, the next life is the reigning....imho




  14. #29

    Re: The Old Testament in Revelation 20 (Why are there no "millennial" references?)

    I agree with the above conclusion .... His immortal chuch will not reign with Him until He returns to the earth

    It should be obious that living believers are not reigning on the earth today .... and neither are the dead in Christ who still await their resurrection and changing to immortality along with those living at the time of His future harpazo action

    All of these will reign with the Lord as immortals together at His coming

    Romans
    8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

    8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

    8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

    8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

    8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

    8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

    8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

    8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

    8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

    8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

    8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

    8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

    8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

    8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

    8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

    8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

    8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

    8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

    8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

    8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

    8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

    8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

    8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

    8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

    8:25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

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    Re: The Old Testament in Revelation 20 (Why are there no "millennial" references?)

    Quote Originally Posted by quiet dove View Post
    I don't know that arrogant is the thing so much as misunderstanding our current place.
    I have to go eat lunch in a bit, but I wanted to clarify what I meant here. I was mainly speaking in general, and was thinking that if we are supposed to be serving now, reigning later, then it would be arrogant to think that we are too good to serve now, but we need to reign instead. I was mainly thinking, why should we be reigning when Christ was serving? Shouldn't we be serving like He did, then reigning later? Isn't that the way it happened in His case? As you can see tho, I'm totally rethinking what I said.

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