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Thread: The Old Testament in Revelation 20 (Why are there no "millennial" references?)

  1. #46

    Re: The Old Testament in Revelation 20 (Why are there no "millennial" references?)

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD
    Either both are true, or both are false.
    Maybe there are alternative approaches you haven't considered? Not everything is limited to two choices.

    Speaking of trying to somewhat stay on topic, I attempted just that, but it seems the other side doesn't really want to discuss any of these OT Scriptures.
    You gotta have some patience. Ben (Nihil) doesn't hop on the forum as often as some of us do, and Matt even less often.

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    Re: The Old Testament in Revelation 20 (Why are there no "millennial" references?)

    Quote Originally Posted by markedward View Post
    Maybe there are alternative approaches you haven't considered? Not everything is limited to two choices.
    Could you clarify what alternative approaches you might be meaning? As of now I would see a spiritual resurrection contradicting with OSAS not being Biblical. So which alternative approaches might clear up this obvious contradiction? It seems obvious to me anyway.


    Quote Originally Posted by markedward View Post
    You gotta have some patience. Ben (Nihil) doesn't hop on the forum as often as some of us do, and Matt even less often.
    You're right, patience is key. But I'm not being impatient about Ben tho. No problems with Ben whatsoever, as far as I'm concerned. But Matt, I'm just wondering if he had rather not discuss these things specifically with me, since I have made it known in the past that he usually speaks way over my head? Ironically tho, I'm understanding him just fine so far, in this thread I mean. At least I think I am.

  3. #48

    Re: The Old Testament in Revelation 20 (Why are there no "millennial" references?)

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD
    Could you clarify what alternative approaches you might be meaning? As of now I would see a spiritual resurrection contradicting with OSAS not being Biblical. So which alternative approaches might clear up this obvious contradiction? It seems obvious to me anyway.
    Shoot me a PM. It's not directly related to the 'Old Testament in Revelation 20' topic, so we can avoid derailing.

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    Re: The Old Testament in Revelation 20 (Why are there no "millennial" references?)

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    You're right, patience is key. But I'm not being impatient about Ben tho. No problems with Ben whatsoever, as far as I'm concerned. But Matt, I'm just wondering if he had rather not discuss these things specifically with me, since I have made it known in the past that he usually speaks way over my head? Ironically tho, I'm understanding him just fine so far, in this thread I mean. At least I think I am.
    Just wanted to let you know that I do intend to respond to your posts when I get a chance. I did not see your original reply, but I saw you brought up some excellent points in a follow-up post. I'll hopefully be able to respond tomorrow sometime.

    - Hitman


    "Test all things; hold fast what is good." - Advice from the Apostle Paul


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    Re: The Old Testament in Revelation 20 (Why are there no "millennial" references?)

    Quote Originally Posted by markedward View Post
    Shoot me a PM. It's not directly related to the 'Old Testament in Revelation 20' topic, so we can avoid derailing.
    To clarify, I don't really mind if we have some side-discussions going on here, just as long as there is some interaction over the main point of the OP as well.

    - Hitman


    "Test all things; hold fast what is good." - Advice from the Apostle Paul


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    Re: The Old Testament in Revelation 20 (Why are there no "millennial" references?)

    Quote Originally Posted by Matthehitmanhart View Post
    Looks like the thread got derailed fast. I'd love to see some responses to substance of the OP. It’s striking to me that we don’t find John quoting or alluding to any of those puzzling OT passages often labeled “millennial” when he recounts his vision of the thousand years, and it’s even more striking that some of those passages (like Ezekiel 40-48 and Isaiah 65, for instance) actually do come up when he recounts his vision of the new earth. What exegetical warrant is there for the premillennial portrait of an interim age of earthly paradise in Revelation 20 if John himself did not see it thus?
    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    Getting back to the OP. Here's some passages the OP mentioned.

    Isaiah 24:21-22, Genesis 3:13-15, and the LXX of Isaiah 27:1 in verses 1-3; allusions to Daniel 7:9-11, 26-27, and Exodus 19:6 in verses 4-6; and multiple allusions to Ezekiel 38-39 in verses 7-10.

    Since I'm kind of slow about things, let's do the Isaiah 24 passage first. Here's what I just typed out after lunch in Window's Notepad.

    Isaiah 24:21 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.
    22 And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.


    This to me seems to be the following. But let's do it in sections.

    And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.

    Revelation 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
    20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
    21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

    Revelation 19:19-21 seems to explain that.

    And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison

    Revelation 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
    2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
    3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

    Revelation 20:1-3 seems to explain that.

    and after many days shall they be visited.

    Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
    8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
    9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

    And Revelation 20:7-9 seems to explain that. So IOW, Isaiah 24:21-22 is saying this.

    And it shall come to pass in that day, AT THE BEGINNING OF THE 1000 YEARS, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.
    22 And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison FOR A 1000 YEARS, and after many days(THE 1000 YEARS) shall they be visited(THE LITTLE SEASON).

    That's my interpretation of that. I of course expect disagreement, especially from non premils. So what you'll have to do then is to give a more convincing interpretation of this passage in Isaiah 24, and show why I would be incorrect. I very well could be incorrect, but until I'm shown a more convincing interpretation, I'll then stick to this one for now.
    But...think about it. Or look again at Isaiah 24. Nowhere is a 'one thousand year reign' mentioned in that passage. All we have, really, is folks like you who place it in the 1,000 years. Others of us say it is the eternal reign of Christ. Isaiah never mentions a previous, temporary reign in any way whatsoever.

    And that 'one thousand year reign' is definitely a TEMPORARY reign, supposed to happen before his eternal reign.

    I say that Jesus Christ is NOW and forever the King of Kings and Lord of lords.
    My favorite scripture: Malachi 3:16

    "Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name!" (Every time we speak of the Lord, or even THINK of him--its written down in a book of remembrance!)

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    Re: The Old Testament in Revelation 20 (Why are there no "millennial" references?)

    Quote Originally Posted by Matthehitmanhart View Post

    This presents a rather awkward problem for the premillennial scheme, since that interpretation of John's "thousand years" relies most heavily on those passages outside of Revelation 20 for its content. This problem can be broken down into two questions for further dialog: First, granted that Revelation 20 is the only passage in which a thousand-year reign is explicitly mentioned, why do none of the stereotypical "millennial" passages come to John's mind in his vision of the millennium? And, second, how do we account for the ironic presence of many such passages in John's portrait of the "new heavens and new earth" in chapters 21 and 22? Have premillennialists perhaps mislabeled those OT passages in order to fit a particular scheme, a scheme which is in fact foreign to the thinking of John himself?
    In the OT we have a few promises made to Jews about a period of mortal blessings for them. In the NT this period is hinted at a couple of times and mentioned in Rev 20, not much is said and there is very little cross-referencing because not much is said.

    In the OT we have numerous references to a period of eternal blessings, in the NT as well. In both the OT and the NT we have numerous references to the day of the Lord, or the second coming. Our mandate to preach and our destiny applies up until the second coming, after that we receive our promises and our resurrection bodies and can no longer save souls. Of course salvation up until the second coming is the focus, a few promises to Jews about an alternative second-best mortal destiny for those Jews who have misunderstood and rejected salvation and miss the resurrection is of little consequence to us from the NT perspective. Yes we will rule over them during the millenium but we are citizens of Jerusalem above during that period, and merely "camping" in the camp of the saints in the earthly Jerusalem during the millenium.

    I believe many Jews will come to Christ during the tribulation, those that do not, let them have their millenium, it will make little difference to eternal destinies.

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    Re: The Old Testament in Revelation 20 (Why are there no "millennial" references?)

    Quote Originally Posted by markedward View Post
    The OP is pointing out that nowhere in the Old Testament do any Prophets refer to a 'one thousand year' period by that description...

    And that, most ironically, when premils look at certain passages and say 'that's the one thousand years', whereas the Revelation instead points at and says 'that's after the one thousand years'.
    What do you mean? Whats after the 1000 years?


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    Re: The Old Testament in Revelation 20 (Why are there no "millennial" references?)

    Quote Originally Posted by Matthehitmanhart View Post
    Looks like the thread got derailed fast. I'd love to see some responses to substance of the OP. It’s striking to me that we don’t find John quoting or alluding to any of those puzzling OT passages often labeled “millennial” when he recounts his vision of the thousand years, and it’s even more striking that some of those passages (like Ezekiel 40-48 and Isaiah 65, for instance) actually do come up when he recounts his vision of the new earth. What exegetical warrant is there for the premillennial portrait of an interim age of earthly paradise in Revelation 20 if John himself did not see it thus?
    You did not quote the OT passages. You simply made an assertion. The OT passages you have in mind (and we don't know what they are cause you have not revealed them to us) may or may not be part of the 1000 year reign. People can make mistakes about OT prophecy and place them in the wrong historical time. But the Revelation chapter 20 clearly points out to a 1000 year kingdom of God on earth.


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    Re: The Old Testament in Revelation 20 (Why are there no "millennial" references?)

    Quote Originally Posted by markedward View Post
    This is exactly what the kingdom of God is defined as in Scripture. The kingdom is servitude. True rulers serve.

    To say something like 'And later, when His footstep are as ruling King of kings over all the earth, then, so will be ours' doesn't make any sense, because Jesus is king now. For Jesus to be king now means his kingdom is here now (which he and his Apostles say at least a few times over). If his kingdom is here now, we are serving in it now.
    That Kingdom is a kingdom of Spirit that is in preparation to the actual physical kingdom of the 1000 years. Revelation 19 states that only when Jesus returns will the kingdoms of this world become His and He shall rule them with an Iron Rod. The servant rulers you refer to is how we should act Within the Body of Christ.

    I try not to get bent out of shape over previous posts of mine being missed... could you (or Quiet Dove) please respond to my last one? You each take the position that reigning with Jesus is solely future, and that nothing resembling the thousand years, let alone after the thousand years... even though Paul describes the present state of the Church in precisely the same way John describes either the thousand years or what follows after them.
    Try quoting scriptures. Given people something to work with, to respond to.


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    Re: The Old Testament in Revelation 20 (Why are there no "millennial" references?)

    Quote Originally Posted by Raybob View Post
    That's a big "IF" since the future is only 1/3 of what John was told to write when he wrote "The Revelation of Jesus Christ".

    Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;
    (Rev 1:19)
    Where do you get the 1/3rd from?



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    Re: The Old Testament in Revelation 20 (Why are there no "millennial" references?)

    Quote Originally Posted by John146 View Post
    You can do both at the same time. Why can't you serve and reign? That is how we reign, by following Christ's example of serving others. At the same time Jesus was serving He also claimed to be the King:

    Matt 27:11 Now Jesus stood before the governor. And the governor asked Him, saying, “Are You the King of the Jews?” Jesus said to him, “It is as you say.

    He was a King who served. We reign with Him by serving people the way He did. I think your understanding of the nature of us reigning with Him is flawed.

    Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved; ) 6And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

    We sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus but don't reign with Jesus? I completely disagree.

    One of the things that identify those who reign with Christ is that they are priests of the Father and of Christ.

    Rev 20:6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

    The following scripture says we are even now priests of the Father and of Christ.

    Rev 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, 6And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

    1 Peter 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. 6Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded. 7Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, 8And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed. 9But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

    Since we are even now priests of Christ how can we not be reigning with Him? Doesn't Rev 20:6 indicate that those two things go hand in hand?
    The Book of Revelation is a book of prophecy if Jesus was reigning on earth at the time it was written it would not include the following Passage deatialing what will happen at the 7th trumpet sounding.

    Revelation 11
    15 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!” 16 And the twenty-four elders who sat before God on their thrones fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying:

    “We give You thanks, O Lord God Almighty,
    The One who is and who was and who is to come,
    Because You have taken Your great power and reigned.
    18 The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come,
    And the time of the dead, that they should be judged,
    And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints,

    And those who fear Your name, small and great,
    And should destroy those who destroy the earth.”


    This is still future.


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    Re: The Old Testament in Revelation 20 (Why are there no "millennial" references?)

    Quote Originally Posted by John146 View Post
    He is King over all nations and King of kings and Lord of lords now.


    Rev 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
    Yes he SHALL overcome them. Shall means He will at a later date.


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    Re: The Old Testament in Revelation 20 (Why are there no "millennial" references?)

    Quote Originally Posted by markedward View Post
    This is exactly what the kingdom of God is defined as in Scripture. The kingdom is servitude. True rulers serve.

    To say something like 'And later, when His footstep are as ruling King of kings over all the earth, then, so will be ours' doesn't make any sense, because Jesus is king now. For Jesus to be king now means his kingdom is here now (which he and his Apostles say at least a few times over). If his kingdom is here now, we are serving in it now.

    I try not to get bent out of shape over previous posts of mine being missed... could you (or Quiet Dove) please respond to my last one? You each take the position that reigning with Jesus is solely future, and that nothing resembling the thousand years, let alone after the thousand years... even though Paul describes the present state of the Church in precisely the same way John describes either the thousand years or what follows after them.
    I need a passage also...lol




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    Re: The Old Testament in Revelation 20 (Why are there no "millennial" references?)

    Quote Originally Posted by Diggindeeper View Post
    But...think about it. Or look again at Isaiah 24. Nowhere is a 'one thousand year reign' mentioned in that passage. All we have, really, is folks like you who place it in the 1,000 years. Others of us say it is the eternal reign of Christ. Isaiah never mentions a previous, temporary reign in any way whatsoever.

    And that 'one thousand year reign' is definitely a TEMPORARY reign, supposed to happen before his eternal reign.

    I say that Jesus Christ is NOW and forever the King of Kings and Lord of lords.


    How does this help tho? Wouldn't it be better to provide a more convincing interpretation? You automatically assume I am incorrect without actually showing how. Also, here you are doing it again. If the 1000 year reign of Christ is temporary in a premil view, then it would be temporary in your view as well, since that same 1000 years has to come and go. But since I see the new heavens and a new earth coinciding with the beginning of the 1000 years, and the fact that after the 1000 years have expired, the camp of the saints, and the beloved city, they are seen being attacked, this then infers someone must still be reigning, and not that the reign stopped when the 1000 years ended. And besides that, Scriptures clearly teach that Christ will reign forever and ever.

    But Scripture also says that He must reign until He hath put all enemies under His feet. Then it goes on to say...And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. 1 Corinthians 15:28. Doesn't subdued in the Greek mean to come under the obedience of? Isn't this verse saying...And when all things shall COME UNDER THE OBEDIENCE OF HIM, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. So how does that happen before He returns? I would think that happens after He returns, the reason He will then be ruling with a rod of iron. Look at the Zech 14:16-19 passage. This seems to be Christ working on His enemies being subject to Him.

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