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Thread: The Old Testament in Revelation 20 (Why are there no "millennial" references?)

  1. #166
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    Re: The Old Testament in Revelation 20 (Why are there no "millennial" references?)

    Quote Originally Posted by Nihil Obstat View Post
    In the past I created a thread listing some of the parallels between Luke 24.1-12 and Acts 1.9-15, but they're obvious enough that I don't need to lay them out here again. What I will point out though is how Luke depicts the disciples as looking for the living one both in the ground and in the sky, and would suggest that in doing so he was pulling from Deut. 30.11-14, just as John (3.11-13), Paul (Rom. 10.5-13), and the Revelation (10.1-7) all did as well.
    In other words, Acts 1.9-10 may in fact be looking forward to the coming of Christ's spirit from heaven that would occur only a few days later.
    analyze. synthesize. repeat.

    *It is the next chapter of my life, whether I'm ready or not. My time here in these forums has come to its close. I bless you as I go!*

  2. #167

    Re: The Old Testament in Revelation 20 (Why are there no "millennial" references?)

    Quote Originally Posted by Nihil Obstat View Post
    In other words, Acts 1.9-10 may in fact be looking forward to the coming of Christ's spirit from heaven that would occur only a few days later.

    `The sons of this age do marry and are given in marriage,/////but those accounted worthy to obtain that age,//neither marry, nor are they given in marriage;

    Those in bold are separated by something and it wasn't the day of Pentecost being fully come. You are not living in "that age". I know this because you said something about family in an earlier post which I assume means there is a "given in marriage," here somewhere.

  3. #168

    Re: The Old Testament in Revelation 20 (Why are there no "millennial" references?)

    While I'm not in agreement with the direction Nihil Obstat is moving with his posts...

    I think the dialogue can do better than just posting a proof-text and saying, 'Gotcha!'

  4. #169
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    Re: The Old Testament in Revelation 20 (Why are there no "millennial" references?)

    Quote Originally Posted by markedward View Post
    While I'm not in agreement with the direction Nihil Obstat is moving with his posts...

    I think the dialogue can do better than just posting a proof-text and saying, 'Gotcha!'
    He explained his text?




  5. #170

    Re: The Old Testament in Revelation 20 (Why are there no "millennial" references?)

    It's a three sentence blurb that he is treating as a complete refutation of Ben's eschatological position.

    I'm sure Ben has taken that verse into account. In fact, I would almost guarantee he has, since he and I have discussed it privately in the past.

    I don't agree with Ben's eschatology, but even I am under the impression that Jesus was not teaching marriage would cease to exist in the age to come. At which point, I could almost guarantee that Ben understands what Jesus is saying in a different way than percho's proof-texting assumes.

  6. #171

    Re: The Old Testament in Revelation 20 (Why are there no "millennial" references?)

    I'm sorry if I offended anyone. Did not mean to. That post was 1 of 7 in this thread 83, 109, 110, 112. 119. 143 and 167 all of which to some degree, disagree with any kingdom now concept.

    Lord teach us to pray.

    Thy kingdom come thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

    Now I believe the will of God according to his purpose is always done. But I believe will in the context of that prayer is in the context of thy righteousness fill the earth of which I do not believe you could say it does at the present moment.

    Once again, Sorry

  7. #172

    Re: The Old Testament in Revelation 20 (Why are there no "millennial" references?)

    No need to apologize. I wan't offended. I just think our dialogue here can do more than just a one-verse proof text.

  8. #173

    Re: The Old Testament in Revelation 20 (Why are there no "millennial" references?)

    I believe also of those in the age to come born of men and women there will continue to be marriage. However of those who enter that age through the resurrection from the dead, that is, are born of God as children of God being the children of the resurrection, will neither be married nor be given in marriage, nor die anymore. See verse 36

    What say you?

  9. #174

    Re: The Old Testament in Revelation 20 (Why are there no "millennial" references?)

    Quote Originally Posted by markedward View Post
    No need to apologize. I wan't offended. I just think our dialogue here can do more than just a one-verse proof text.
    Well if you have read many of my post I am more apt to go the other direction with length. A lot of times I give more info, than can be absorbed because in reality I believe just about all topics are relative one to the other.

  10. #175
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    Re: The Old Testament in Revelation 20 (Why are there no "millennial" references?)

    I've actually posted a great deal on that passage. Why was the woman "married, even given in marriage" in the Sadducees' scenario? Because her husband died. But the sons of the resurrection will be like the angels - unable to die, that is - and therefore the law that states a brother-in-law must take his late brother's wife as his own that she might have children, that law will pass away. I believe that has already happened.
    analyze. synthesize. repeat.

    *It is the next chapter of my life, whether I'm ready or not. My time here in these forums has come to its close. I bless you as I go!*

  11. #176
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    Re: The Old Testament in Revelation 20 (Why are there no "millennial" references?)

    I really didn't intend for Matt's thread to get so far side-tracked with this. I'm still working through my thoughts on most everything, but consider that a very good thing. I'm far from settled-in, and (for now, anyway) am thoroughly enjoying the process. I'm a young Christian, and have no reason to be in a hurry. Finding yourself should be this fun, you know? Anyway. As for the thousand year period in Rev. 20, I have mixed opinions on it as well, partly because I'm a Preterist and partly because I'm a flavor of Open Theism. But whether this time period is past, present, or future, literal or figurative, or synonymous with something else entirely, the imagery may not be borrowing from the OT here, but (as occurs elsewhere in John's vision) it may be imagery borrowed from Roman culture. Maybe we're looking in the wrong places for references?
    analyze. synthesize. repeat.

    *It is the next chapter of my life, whether I'm ready or not. My time here in these forums has come to its close. I bless you as I go!*

  12. #177
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    Re: The Old Testament in Revelation 20 (Why are there no "millennial" references?)

    Quote Originally Posted by Nihil Obstat View Post
    In other words, Acts 1.9-10 may in fact be looking forward to the coming of Christ's spirit from heaven that would occur only a few days later.
    The rest of the new testament was written after they witnessed the coming of the Holy Spirit.
    They still expect Jesus to fulfill his promise to come again.

  13. #178
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    Re: The Old Testament in Revelation 20 (Why are there no "millennial" references?)

    Quote Originally Posted by Nihil Obstat View Post
    As for the thousand year period in Rev. 20, I have mixed opinions on it as well, partly because I'm a Preterist and partly because I'm a flavor of Open Theism. But whether this time period is past, present, or future, literal or figurative, or synonymous with something else entirely, the imagery may not be borrowing from the OT here, but (as occurs elsewhere in John's vision) it may be imagery borrowed from Roman culture. Maybe we're looking in the wrong places for references?
    I've been pursuing this line of thought recently to see if it leads anywhere fruitful, since most commentaries don't really touch outside of the OT and later Jewish parallels. You already know that I think John's millennium is intended in some respects to be an antitype to Rome's "golden age" - an expectation of heavenly vindication to counter the particular brand of realized eschatology peddled by the Roman poets and politicians.

    But I've also found some interesting Greek and Roman references which make me wonder if the main emphasis of the symbolic figure of "a thousand years" is actually concerned with the idea of a heavenly intermediate state. In Book X of his Republic, Plato describes the transmigration of souls in Tartarus and Elysium as follows:

    "He said that when his soul left the body he went on a journey with a great company, and that they came to a mysterious place at which there were two openings in the earth; they were near together, and over against them were two other openings in the heaven above. In the intermediate space there were judges seated, who commanded the just, after they had given judgment on them and had bound their sentences in front of them, to ascend by the heavenly way on the right hand; and in like manner the unjust were bidden by them to descend by the lower way on the left hand; these also bore the symbols of their deeds, but fastened on their backs. He drew near, and they told him that he was to be the messenger who would carry the report of the other world to men, and they bade him hear and see all that was to be heard and seen in that place. Then he beheld and saw on one side the souls departing at either opening of heaven and earth when sentence had been given on them; and at the two other openings other souls, some ascending out of the earth dusty and worn with travel, some descending out of heaven clean and bright. And arriving ever and anon they seemed to have come from a long journey, and they went forth with gladness into the meadow, where they encamped as at a festival; and those who knew one another embraced and conversed, the souls which came from earth curiously enquiring about the things above, and the souls which came from heaven about the things beneath. And they told one another of what had happened by the way, those from below weeping and sorrowing at the remembrance of the things which they had endured and seen in their journey beneath the earth (now the journey lasted a thousand years), while those from above were describing heavenly delights and visions of inconceivable beauty. The Story, Glaucon, would take too long to tell; but the sum was this: --He said that for every wrong which they had done to any one they suffered tenfold; or once in a hundred years --such being reckoned to be the length of man's life, and the penalty being thus paid ten times in a thousand years. If, for example, there were any who had been the cause of many deaths, or had betrayed or enslaved cities or armies, or been guilty of any other evil behaviour, for each and all of their offences they received punishment ten times over, and the rewards of beneficence and justice and holiness were in the same proportion. I need hardly repeat what he said concerning young children dying almost as soon as they were born. Of piety and impiety to gods and parents, and of murderers, there were retributions other and greater far which he described."


    Note the lines in bold, which sound particularly close to some of the descriptions in Revelation. Virgil describes a similar scene in book VI of the Aeneid:

    "Each man receives
    His ghostly portion in the world of dark [i.e. Tartarus];
    But thence to realms Elysian we go free,
    Where for a few these seats of bliss abide,
    Till time's long lapse a perfect orb fulfills,
    And takes all taint away, restoring so
    The pure, ethereal soul's first virgin fire.
    At last, when the millennial aeon strikes,
    God calls them forth to yon Lethaean stream,
    In numerous host, that thence, oblivious all,
    They may behold once more the vaulted sky,
    And willingly to shapes of flesh return."


    Note that the "millennial aeon" is also called a "perfect orb" of time's long lapse, and that after this thousand-year period in Elysium the purged souls return once more to flesh. I feel like this has to be typologically significant for Revelation 20, especially if the millennial reign there is concerned with the intermediate state of the faithful dead. It makes a lot of sense to me that John would borrow from a contemporary Greco-Roman conception of the afterlife, as he does with so many other pagan myths (e.g. the Combat myth and the Nero Redivivus legend) - and yet, in classic apocalyptic form, that he would subvert it with a different vision altogether. The court is seated, as in both Daniel 7:9 and Republic 10.614, but the sentence is ironically made against Rome and the power which stands behind it and for the very people which it oppressed, so that while the followers of Jesus spend a thousand years reigning in Elysium, the great enemy, Satan, spends a thousand years bound in Tartarus.

    - Hitman


    "Test all things; hold fast what is good." - Advice from the Apostle Paul


  14. #179
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    Re: The Old Testament in Revelation 20 (Why are there no "millennial" references?)

    I still find it striking that Revelation seems to clearly have been intended as a vision about the downfall of Rome, when instead what took place was the demise of Jerusalem by the hand of Rome. It's so intriguing, it leaves me wondering all the time. I'm rethinking a lot...
    analyze. synthesize. repeat.

    *It is the next chapter of my life, whether I'm ready or not. My time here in these forums has come to its close. I bless you as I go!*

  15. #180
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    Re: The Old Testament in Revelation 20 (Why are there no "millennial" references?)

    Quote Originally Posted by Nihil Obstat View Post
    I still find it striking that Revelation seems to clearly have been intended as a vision about the downfall of Rome, when instead what took place was the demise of Jerusalem by the hand of Rome. It's so intriguing, it leaves me wondering all the time. I'm rethinking a lot...
    I'd love to see you develop this thought further. Are you sold on an early date then?

    - Hitman


    "Test all things; hold fast what is good." - Advice from the Apostle Paul


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