God "outside of" time

[glad4mercy]

Sure. But that doesn't mean that He had to look into a future that has already taken place for Him to foreknow it. He knows our thoughts and what we will say before we will say it. But that's not looking into the future; that's looking into our present (and past) thoughts.

Well, to begin with I lost my train of thought when you expounded the Isaiah passage. The point I was making was that the fact that passages state that God willed something in ages past, does not mean that He willed them at a point in time. The Bible says that Jesus was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, but if you understand that God's understanding is perfect and immutable, you realize that Redemption through Christ has always, from all eternity, been God's determinate will.

Can you give me an example of an action preceeding creation, ( not only the creation of the earth but also of angels, whenever that was), that God hasnt always done from all eternity? If you cannot, then the reason may be because time began at some point, ( when God began creating) and did not exist prior to that. I am not dogmatic on this, just giving some food for thought. For before time, there was God and nothing else, but when God began creating, then time became a reality.

He knows our thoughts and what we will say before we will say it. But that's not looking into the future; that's looking into our present (and past) thoughts.[/

God has a perfect understanding of the future. He knew Peter would deny Him three times. Did He cause Peter to deny Him, or did He foreknow it? God knew Adam and Eve would sin, did He cause it or foreknow it? Is God the author of sin, or did He just foresee it and provide a way of atonement. I believe the latter is true, not the former.

[LookingUp]

Well, to begin with I lost my train of thought when you expounded the Isaiah passage. The point I was making was that the fact that passages state that God willed something in ages past, does not mean that He willed them at a point in time. The Bible says that Jesus was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, but if you understand that God's understanding is perfect and immutable, you realize that Redemption through Christ has always, from all eternity, been God's determinate will.

I'm not sure I understand the part I underlined. I agree that God can most certainly bring anything to pass, including something He has predetermined from the foundation of the world.

[glad4mercy]

I'm not sure I understand the part I underlined. I agree that God can most certainly bring anything to pass, including something He has predetermined from the foundation of the world.

The point is that God's determinate plan of redemption did not begin at a point in time, it has always been God's determinate plan. God was not caught by surprise when Adam and Eve sinned. He knew it would happen, but He did not cause it as if they were puppets in a play. In other words, God's foreknowledge of the fall was not causative. God foresaw what Adam and Eve would do, not when He created them, not when He gave the commandment, He always knew, from all eternity. He also knew and determined from eternity to send His Son to redeem fallen man. If it is an eternal council, then it was not determined in time. That which exists in eternity past has always been. Only God, His Wisdom, His Love, His Will, etc. existed in eternity past.

God has loved us with an everlasting love. He has always known us and He has always loved us.

Romans 11: 33- O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

So in other words, the plan to send Jesus to die for mankind was not decided when man fell, it was always the determinate council of God, from all eternity. I believe God foreknew man's fall but did not cause it. On the other hand, He foreknew and brought to pass the Redemption in Christ Jesus.

a. If the will is an eternal will, that means it has always been so.
b. If it has always been so, it was not done at a point in time.

God can do this kind of stuff, cause He's God.

[MaryFreeman]

I'm not sure I understand the part I underlined. I agree that God can most certainly bring anything to pass, including something He has predetermined from the foundation of the world.

"Does not mean that he willed them at a point in time" comes from the thought that He exists outside of time.... Or that He is not hindered or motivated by time.... And that time did not exist until the point at which the world came into being.... Job is IMHO the most excellent depiction of Gods attributes out there.... It is awesome how God answers Job....

(Job 38:12) Hast thou commanded the morning since thy days; and caused the dayspring to know his place;

The AMP says "Have you commanded the morning since your days began....?"

Morning is a measurement.... It is a block of time.... Since it is a few hours of the day.... Now if it always existed.... As God has always existed.... How in the world could He contain or command it? Or keep Himself from being subject to it? But God is clearly telling Job that HE commands the morning (time).... God does not command what does not exist.... And if it exists.... God created it.... And if God created it.... It has a starting point.... Or a beginning.... Thus time is a created thing that God created and controls.... It is HIS CHOICE whether or not He is subject to it.... And He chose to be subject to it for a very good reason....

You....

[Nihil Obstat]

Having a sun and moon, mornings and seasons, isn't what gives us time. Time exists beyond the reach of their light.

[LookingUp]

The point is that God's determinate plan of redemption did not begin at a point in time, it has always been God's determinate plan.

“Before” the foundation of the world is a point in time. It’s before the world was created.

God was not caught by surprise when Adam and Eve sinned. He knew it would happen,

No one suggest that God is ever “caught by surprise.”

but He did not cause it as if they were puppets in a play.

I agree.

In other words, God's foreknowledge of the fall was not causative. God foresaw what Adam and Eve would do,

If Scripture taught an exhaustively definite future, I’d feel the same as you do.

not when He created them, not when He gave the commandment, He always knew, from all eternity. He also knew and determined from eternity to send His Son to redeem fallen man. If it is an eternal council, then it was not determined in time. That which exists in eternity past has always been. Only God, His Wisdom, His Love, His Will, etc. existed in eternity past.

There was a point in time when God thought to create, a point in time when He created and a point in time when He finished creating. There was a point in time when God thought to send a flood, a point in time He sent a flood and a point in time He finished sending a flood. God isn’t eternally thinking about creating. He’s not eternally sending a flood. God experiences a before and after in His actions and there’s nothing to suggest He doesn’t experience a before and after in His thoughts. You have God frozen in some kind of eternal now. That limits God.

[MaryFreeman]

Having a sun and moon, mornings and seasons, isn't what gives us time. Time exists beyond the reach of their light.

But did not exist before God created it.... God existed first....

[divaD]

If Scripture taught an exhaustively definite future, I’d feel the same as you do.

Doesn't look like it does to me.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

[glad4mercy]

“Before” the foundation of the world is a point in time. It’s before the world was created.

No one suggest that God is ever “caught by surprise.”

I agree.

If Scripture taught an exhaustively definite future, I’d feel the same as you do.

There was a point in time when God thought to create, a point in time when He created and a point in time when He finished creating. There was a point in time when God thought to send a flood, a point in time He sent a flood and a point in time He finished sending a flood. God isn’t eternally thinking about creating. He’s not eternally sending a flood. God experiences a before and after in His actions and there’s nothing to suggest He doesn’t experience a before and after in His thoughts. You have God frozen in some kind of eternal now. That limits God.

If His Will and purpose in certain things are eternal, how can they be done in a point of time? Do you believe that God has an eternal purpose and Will. When did God become wise? When did He become Holy? When did He become Almighty? The answer is, He always has been. So the fact that God did not begin at a point in time clearly demonstrates that time has not always existed. It is the only logical conclusion.

Do sequential events have a beginning and an end? Yes! Does God have a beginning and an end? No! So if measuring sequential events is your definition of time, then time cannot be eternal, therefore God existed, thought, planned, willed, and loved before time. He may do things sequentially now, but it was not always so.

I will say this last thing and then I think I am done. Basically, if you take what you are saying to it's logical conclusion, then you are teaching that God learns new things and increases in knowledge. If you believe that, fine for you, but I cannot reconcile that view with the view of an Omniscient God.

[Nihil Obstat]

But did not exist before God created it.... God existed first....

If God existed "before" time existed, then time has always existed, because "before" is a construct that necessarily depends upon time. In other words, for you to say that "God existed first", you unwittingly default to language about time when attempting to describe a time before time. See your problem? I don't have that problem.

[MaryFreeman]

If God existed "before" time existed, then time has always existed, because "before" is a construct that necessarily depends upon time. In other words, for you to say that "God existed first", you unwittingly default to language about time when attempting to describe a time before time. See your problem? I don't have that problem.

I actually don't have a problem.... Eternity is not a measurement of time.... It is what was before time began.... I don't understand where "before is a construct that necessarily depends upon time" comes from.... But it is a very hard position to defend IMHO.... I can say "before" all I wish to and not have it dependent upon time.... Something happened for time to exist.... Which could only mean God created time.... Which means God EXISTED before time.... Which makes Him TIMELESS.... And the age before time existed AGELESS....

[divaD]

If God existed "before" time existed, then time has always existed, because "before" is a construct that necessarily depends upon time. In other words, for you to say that "God existed first", you unwittingly default to language about time when attempting to describe a time before time. See your problem? I don't have that problem.

Since God is from forever, and if time has existed from forever, then time would have to be a part of God, otherwise where did it come from? It couldn't have been created if it is from forever, since that would show it wasn't really from forever, since this forever wouldn't have a beginning..

[Nihil Obstat]

Since God is from forever, and if time has existed from forever, then time would have to be a part of God, otherwise where did it come from? It couldn't have been created if it is from forever, since that would show it wasn't really from forever, since this forever wouldn't have a beginning..

I would say that time has been with God from forever, not because it is a part of God, but because it is a part of existence, and God has always existed.

[Nihil Obstat]

I actually don't have a problem.... Eternity is not a measurement of time.... It is what was before time began....

See, now you have a huge problem, actually, because if "eternity" existed "before" time "began", then due to the nature of "eternity" alone, God would never have reached a point when time could have been created. This is because eternity does not have segments to it. But really I think you're stuck on something that you needn't be worried about, namely, God being "hedged in" by time, as if making Him the creator of time would somehow solve that anyway. I mean, God is bound by certain things that He has created. He bound Himself to human flesh in the person of Jesus, did He not? So what's the problem of Him binding Himself to something that is un-created, like space or time? It's not as if space or time are living entities that are demanding His worship. They're just the natural by-products of existing, and since God has always existed, so have space and time. That's how I see it, anyway.

[divaD]

They're just the natural by-products of existing, and since God has always existed, so have space and time. That's how I see it, anyway.

If space and time is not God, and if it has existed from forever, would that then mean all of space and time contains God, and there is nowhere within it that He doesn't exist? If not, then where did space and time come from, since it looks like space goes on forever?