The 2 wars in Rev 19 and 20. Same wars, or different wars?

[DurbanDude]

Do you not see a direct correlation between Rev 19:15 and Psalm 2:9 or am I reading you wrong?

Yes, just like any other verse concerning the second coming. They both involve the rod of iron. According to billy-brown they both involve shepherding or ruling. Psalm 2 involves Jesus inheritance, Rev 19 involves Jesus shepherding. Yes there are some similarities. Rev 19 indicates "striking" the nations, and Psalm 2 refers to "breaking" the nations.

[John146]

Yes, just like any other verse concerning the second coming. They both involve the rod of iron. According to billy-brown they both involve shepherding or ruling. Psalm 2 involves Jesus inheritance, Rev 19 involves Jesus shepherding. Yes there are some similarities. Rev 19 indicates "striking" the nations, and Psalm 2 refers to "breaking" the nations.

But what I'm asking you is whether you see Rev 19:15 as describing the fulfillment of Psalm 2:8-9 or not?

[billy-brown 2]

Yes, just like any other verse concerning the second coming. They both involve the rod of iron. According to billy-brown they both involve shepherding or ruling. Psalm 2 involves Jesus inheritance, Rev 19 involves Jesus shepherding. Yes there are some similarities. Rev 19 indicates "striking" the nations, and Psalm 2 refers to "breaking" the nations.

Durban (and others),

Let's look at the following translations of Psalm 2:9 again:

New International Version (©1984)
You will rule them with an iron scepter; you will dash them to pieces like pottery."

New Living Translation (©2007)
You will break them with an iron rod and smash them like clay pots.'"

English Standard Version (©2001)
You shall break them with a rod of iron and dash them in pieces like a potter’s vessel.”

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
'You shall break them with a rod of iron, You shall shatter them like earthenware.'"

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
“You shall shepherd them with a scepter of iron and like a potter's vessels you will shatter them.”

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
You will break them with an iron scepter. You will smash them to pieces like pottery."

King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
You shall break them with a rod of iron; you shall dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

American King James Version
You shall break them with a rod of iron; you shall dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

American Standard Version
Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; Thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

Douay-Rheims Bible
Thou shalt rule them with a rod of iron, and shalt break them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

Darby Bible Translation
Thou shalt break them with a sceptre of iron, as a potter's vessel thou shalt dash them in pieces.

English Revised Version
Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

Webster's Bible Translation
Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

World English Bible
You shall break them with a rod of iron. You shall dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel."

Young's Literal Translation
Thou dost rule them with a sceptre of iron, As a vessel of a potter Thou dost crush them.'

Now Psalm 2:9 has two parts, yes? And the first part is amplified by the second part--and punctuation separates the two parts, yes?

And so here we go: the red bold words in the first part are:

rule
break
shepherd

And the black bold words in the second part are:

crush
dash
break
smash
shatter

Of course, the Psalm 2:9 verse indicates that the red and black bold words above are verbs--and the "them" in Psalm 2:9 will experience those verb actions of complete destruction indeed.

Now, who are the "them" in Psalm 2:9? Let's look at that also from the context:

Psalm 2
6“But as for Me, I have installed My King
Upon Zion, My holy mountain.”

7“I will surely tell of the decree of the LORD:
He said to Me, ‘You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You.

8‘Ask of Me, and I will surely give the nations as Your inheritance,
And the very ends of the earth as Your possession.

Yep. The "them" in Psalm 2:9 is the ends of the earth--even all the nations.

All of them.

Yep.

But the sheep of the Lord will not be dashed or broken, though; since they are the righteous before our God.

Now why not?

Because the King (Psalm 2:6) is Jesus Christ--the Shepherd and Bishop of our souls; His name is King of Kings and Lord of Lords. And the King has a shepherding ministry. But the King's shepherding ministry has two sides: care and feeding for the sheep (the righteous), but wrath and destruction for those who are not the sheep (the unrighteous).

Don't we all know this?

Thus, the Shepherd is only making reference to Psalm 2:9 in Rev. 2:26-27 when He is talking to the church angel in the applicable verses--He is quoting Psalm 2:9 only:

Rev. 2
24‘But I say to you, the rest who are in Thyatira, who do not hold this teaching, who have not known the deep things of Satan, as they call them—I place no other burden on you.
25‘Nevertheless what you have, hold fast until I come.
26‘He who overcomes, and he who keeps My deeds until the end, TO HIM I WILL GIVE AUTHORITY OVER THE NATIONS;
27AND HE SHALL RULE THEM WITH A ROD OF IRON, AS THE VESSELS OF THE POTTER ARE BROKEN TO PIECES, as I also have received authority from My Father;
28and I will give him the morning star.
29‘He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’

Thus, the saints will share in His authority by virtue of their union with Him. (We need not read into it anything more than that.)

Finally, we can go to Rev. 19:15-16:

Rev. 19
15From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may

a) strike down the nations, and

b) He will rule them with a rod of iron; and

c) He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty.

16And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, “KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”

Now, here we are again: Jesus is King (Rev. 19:16), and will express fierce WRATH against the nations indeed; He will strike down the nations. And the sword is in His MOUTH for WRATH indeed and so on.

Thus, John the Revelator had to have read Psalm 2 for all the imagery on all of this, yes?

I mean, just look at the text that shows up in Rev. 19:15 from Psalm 2:9--even the fragment of b) in Rev. 19:15 from Psalm 2:9.

And so, all of this can happen for one overriding reason: Jesus is KING/SHEPHERD/PRIEST already.

And if Jesus is not now our KING/SHEPHERD/PRIEST, then there is no way that "the war of the great day of God Almighty" can occur at all--because only one shot will be fired against the enemies of the Lord and His people. And this "shot" will occur at His Second coming.

Yep.

And it will be the KING/SHEPHERD/PRIEST Jesus that will be firing that one shot only--it will be His vengeance wrath on full display.



(go to the next post . . .)

[DurbanDude]

But what I'm asking you is whether you see Rev 19:15 as describing the fulfillment of Psalm 2:8-9 or not?

Not specifically, they are both general references to the second coming. The language and emphasis is different in both cases, the mention of the rod of iron is similar. Each prophecy about the second coming is different with differing emphasis.

[divaD]

Thus, the Shepherd is only making reference to Psalm 2:9 in Rev. 2:26-27 when He is talking to the church angel in the applicable verses--He is quoting Psalm 2:9 only:





Rev. 2
24‘But I say to you, the rest who are in Thyatira, who do not hold this teaching, who have not known the deep things of Satan, as they call them—I place no other burden on you.
25‘Nevertheless what you have, hold fast until I come.
26‘He who overcomes, and he who keeps My deeds until the end, TO HIM I WILL GIVE AUTHORITY OVER THE NATIONS;
27AND HE SHALL RULE THEM WITH A ROD OF IRON, AS THE VESSELS OF THE POTTER ARE BROKEN TO PIECES, as I also have received authority from My Father;
28and I will give him the morning star.
29‘He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’

Thus, the saints will share in His authority by virtue of their union with Him. (We need not read into it anything more than that.)

BB2, I think you've missed the point myself. Surely Psalms 2:9 is being quoted in Rev 2, no arguments there. But why is it being quoted? Because it goes hand in hand with the overcomer having power over the nations, meaning that the overcomer too will rule with a rod of iron. Rev 19 makes it clear that this happens upon Christ's return, and not before His return. That then means the overcomers won't have power over the nations until Christ has returned. That then has to mean there would be surviving nations, which would have to be mortal, in order for the overcomers to have power over anyone, since it doesn't make sense for one immortal to have power over another immortal. But it does make sense that an immortal would have power over a mortal tho.

So maybe the idea is, Christ first breaks these nations, and then shepherds them by putting them back together again, but this time, solely in subjection to Him. i don't know...just a thought. I mean...the OT is meaning one thing for rule, the NT is meaning something entirely different. There has to be some way to square it.

[billy-brown 2]

BB2, I think you've missed the point myself. Surely Psalms 2:9 is being quoted in Rev 2, no arguments there. But why is it being quoted? Because it goes hand in hand with the overcomer having power over the nations, meaning that the overcomer too will rule with a rod of iron. Rev 19 makes it clear that this happens upon Christ's return, and not before His return. That then means the overcomers won't have power over the nations until Christ has returned. That then has to mean there would be surviving nations, which would have to be mortal, in order for the overcomers to have power over anyone, since it doesn't make sense for one immortal to have power over another immortal. But it does make sense that an immortal would have power over a mortal tho.

divaD,

This is a very good question: why is Rev. 2 quoted in Rev. 2:26-27?

Well, what does it mean to rule with a rod of iron? Apparently, it would mean that there would be complete "sweatless" judgment wrath being sent from Christ to His enemy armies.

And all Jesus is doing in Rev. 2:26-27 is associating the saints as overcomers with Him in His quest to judge with the iron rod and so on. In other words, Jesus is saying the equivalent of the following additional passages (and there are many more than these):

Dan. 7
27‘Then the sovereignty, the dominion and the greatness of all the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be given to the people of the saints of the Highest One; His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all the dominions will serve and obey Him.’

Rom. 8
16The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,
17and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.

However, we must sit with Him in heavenly places before we are glorified with Him--and of course, we do sit with Him already:

Eph. 2
4But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
6and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
7so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

And besides all that, the following confluence of verses inform us indeed:

Rev. 19
11And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war.
12His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems; and He has a name written on Him which no one knows except Himself.
13He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.
14And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses.
15From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty.
16And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, “KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”

Psalm 110
5 The Lord is at your right hand; he will crush kings on the day of his wrath.
6 He will judge the nations, heaping up the dead and crushing the rulers of the whole earth.

Psalm 2
8‘Ask of Me, and I will surely give the nations as Your inheritance, And the very ends of the earth as Your possession.
9‘You shall break them with a rod of iron, You shall shatter them like earthenware.’”

Rev. 11
18“And the nations were enraged, and Your wrath came, and the time came for the dead to be judged, and the time to reward Your bond-servants the prophets and the saints and those who fear Your name, the small and the great, and to destroy those who destroy the earth.”

Now, the wrath of God is mentioned clearly in Rev. 19, Rev. 11, and Psalm 110.

And the rod of iron is mentioned in Psalm 2 and Rev. 19; that rod will be used by Christ Jesus to shatter the nations; the wrath of God will be displayed thereby. But judgment, destruction, and reward will be handed out at the same time--according to Rev. 11:18.

And so, some questions and answers:

Q: Does not the reward of Rev. 11 go to the righteous of the Lord at the 7th trumpet?
A: Yes.

Q: But what about wrath, destruction, and judgment; who gets that at the 7th trumpet?
A: The nations that are the possession of the Lord; even the very ends of the earth; this would be those who have been DECEIVED to gather for the war.

Now, who is the deceiver, and when does he deceive for this gathering?

(hint . . . hint . . .)

Rev. 16
13And I saw coming out of the mouth of the dragon and out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet, three unclean spirits like frogs;
14for they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them together for the war of the great day of God, the Almighty.
15(“Behold, I am coming like a thief. Blessed is the one who stays awake and keeps his clothes, so that he will not walk about naked and men will not see his shame.”)
16And they gathered them together to the place which in Hebrew is called Har-Magedon.

Rev. 20
7When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison,
8and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore.

(go to the next post . . .)

[billy-brown 2]

(this is the continuation from the last post . . .)

So maybe the idea is, Christ first breaks these nations, and then shepherds them by putting them back together again, but this time, solely in subjection to Him. i don't know...just a thought. I mean...the OT is meaning one thing for rule, the NT is meaning something entirely different. There has to be some way to square it.

LOL

Well, I agree on that; there has to be some way to square it . . . And it seems that if the Bible translators had used one verb word in the various translations of Psalm 2:9 in the spots that we have been discussing, it would have been a lot simpler, yes? Here are the words again:

rule
break
shepherd
crush
dash
break
smash
shatter

Now, that's a lot of words--and, like Durban has been saying, to go fron Hebrew to Greek to English in this seems to be more opportunity to get it wrong . . .

However, the NT is based on the OT, yes?

And so, how do the nations in this verse passage below

Psalm 110
5 The Lord is at your right hand; he will crush kings on the day of his wrath.
6 He will judge the nations, heaping up the dead and crushing the rulers of the whole earth.

get into a place where they do something as crazy as confronting the Lord anyways?

Well, they have to be deceived into the confrontation by the dragon Satan--they can't do it on their own:

Rev. 16
13And I saw coming out of the mouth of the dragon and out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet, three unclean spirits like frogs;
14for they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them together for the war of the great day of God, the Almighty.
15(“Behold, I am coming like a thief. Blessed is the one who stays awake and keeps his clothes, so that he will not walk about naked and men will not see his shame.”)
16And they gathered them together to the place which in Hebrew is called Har-Magedon.

Rev. 20
7When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison,
8and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore.

And once the Lord crushes these deceived (i.e., unrighteous among the) nations, how could He "put them back together" for "shepherding" and so on?

After all, the Lord gives "care" to the saints only; He "destroys" those who are not saints. Thus, this represents the two sides of the "shepherding" aspect of our King Jesus:

Rom. 2 (from the Apostle Paul--he ought to know . . .)
5But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:
7to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.
9There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek,
10but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
11For there is no partiality with God.

Yes?

[divaD]

And once the Lord crushes these deceived (i.e., unrighteous among the) nations, how could He "put them back together" for "shepherding" and so on?

I wouldn't be coming from the perspective of Revelation tho, in order to determine this. I would be coming from this perspective instead.

Zechariah 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

These would be of the ones He tries to put back together again. Not anyone He's actually destroyed at His 2nd coming. Notice in this group of those that come against Jerusalem.

Zechariah 14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.


These in verse 12, they're history, bird food.

Zechariah 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

These in verse 16, at this point they're not history, not bird food. Somehow they survived while others didn't. So I would think He would then shepherd them with strict rule, the fact they were spared somehow. But no, I didn't mean to give the impression that those that are actually destroyed, that they're somehow put back together again. I'm meaning the enemies that were allowed to survive.

[billy-brown 2]

I wouldn't be coming from the perspective of Revelation tho, in order to determine this. I would be coming from this perspective instead.

Zechariah 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

These would be of the ones He tries to put back together again. Not anyone He's actually destroyed at His 2nd coming. Notice in this group of those that come against Jerusalem.

Zechariah 14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.


These in verse 12, they're history, bird food.

Zechariah 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

These in verse 16, at this point they're not history, not bird food. Somehow they survived while others didn't. So I would think He would then shepherd them with strict rule, the fact they were spared somehow. But no, I didn't mean to give the impression that those that are actually destroyed, that they're somehow put back together again. I'm meaning the enemies that were allowed to survive.

Well, you have taken us full circle back to the thread that generated this one (click here) . . .

And it is hard to imagine any survivors from the following confluence of events:

II Pet. 3

7But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

8But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.

9The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

10But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.

11aSince all these things are to be destroyed in this way, . . .

Stop right there.

II Pet. 3:11a tells us how things are to be destroyed apropos the present heavens and earth at the day of the Lord, and that verse points directly to II Pet. 7 and 10 . . . we might want to let that sink in a bit--and along with the additional scriptures below . . .

Rev. 16
13And I saw coming out of the mouth of the dragon and out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet, three unclean spirits like frogs;
14for they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them together for the war of the great day of God, the Almighty.
15(“Behold, I am coming like a thief. Blessed is the one who stays awake and keeps his clothes, so that he will not walk about naked and men will not see his shame.”)
16And they gathered them together to the place which in Hebrew is called Har-Magedon.

Rom. 2
5But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:
7to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
8but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.
9There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek,
10but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
11For there is no partiality with God.

Psalm 110
5 The Lord is at your right hand; he will crush kings on the day of his wrath.
6 He will judge the nations, heaping up the dead and crushing the rulers of the whole earth.

[divaD]

Well, you have taken us full circle back to the thread that generated this one (click here) . . .

And it is hard to imagine any survivors from the following confluence of events:



Stop right there.

II Pet. 3:11a tells us how things are to be destroyed apropos the present heavens and earth at the day of the Lord, and that verse points directly to II Pet. 7 and 10 . . . we might want to let that sink in a bit--and along with the additional scriptures below . . .

Well then Billy-brown 2, we might just have to do a thread on whether there will be any mortal survivors after Christ has returned. According to the OT there will be, but not just via Zech 14. Maybe this can be merged into the thread I just started yesterday, in relation to timezones. Unfortunately tho, there seems to be little interest in that thread so far. My guess would be that folks in general don't like to get outside of their comfort zones, in relation to their Eschatology.

[billy-brown 2]

Well then Billy-brown 2, we might just have to do a thread on whether there will be any mortal survivors after Christ has returned. According to the OT there will be, but not just via Zech 14. Maybe this can be merged into the thread I just started yesterday, in relation to timezones. Unfortunately tho, there seems to be little interest in that thread so far. My guess would be that folks in general don't like to get outside of their comfort zones, in relation to their Eschatology.

divaD,

Well, maybe the new thread can deal with all of this also; however, Peter is refering to the OT (Moses!) in the verses prior to II Pet. 3:10 (see the bold text below):

II Pet. 3
3Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts,
4and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation.”
5For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water,
6through which the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water.

And who survived that?

Gen. 6
5Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
6The LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.
7The LORD said, “I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, from man to animals to creeping things and to birds of the sky; for I am sorry that I have made them.”
8But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD.

17“Behold, I, even I am bringing the flood of water upon the earth, to destroy all flesh in which is the breath of life, from under heaven; everything that is on the earth shall perish.
18“But I will establish My covenant with you; and you shall enter the ark—you and your sons and your wife, and your sons’ wives with you.

Yep. That's 8 people who survived (plus the animals and so on):

Gen. 7
20The water prevailed fifteen cubits higher, and the mountains were covered.
21All flesh that moved on the earth perished, birds and cattle and beasts and every swarming thing that swarms upon the earth, and all mankind;
22of all that was on the dry land, all in whose nostrils was the breath of the spirit of life, died.
23Thus He blotted out every living thing that was upon the face of the land, from man to animals to creeping things and to birds of the sky, and they were blotted out from the earth; and only Noah was left, together with those that were with him in the ark.

And Peter mentions all of this:

I Pet. 3
18For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;
19in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison,
20who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water

Thus, Peter indicates the following--that there will be fire next time:

II Pet. 3
7But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

And when we should think that Peter would be looking for a "millennium" and so on, we find that he is in fact indicating that "we are" looking for and hastening (well, let's let him tell it . . .)

II Pet. 3
12b . . . the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat!
13But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.

[divaD]

Yep. That's 8 people who survived (plus the animals and so on):

BB2, but you have to take all Scriptures into consideration. Here's something Jesus said in relation to His 2nd coming.

Luke 17:28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

Verse 30 says...and destroyed them all. Everyone on the entire planet except for Lot and his family, or just everyone in this particular area? The point of course is this, not all the wicked people on the planet got destroyed during Lot's day, and the context is dealing with the 2nd coming. This can easily be seen from the following parallel perspective.

Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

No mention of Lot in this context, but this context matches the following context, which includes Lot in the context.

Luke 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

So here's what you basically have per Luke 17, which seems related to the 2nd coming. You have the flood where everyone on the entire planet were destroyed, except for 8 souls. Then you have only folks in a certain area destroyed, while on the rest of the planet, no one is destroyed. So why is it then, folks automatically accept the events of Noak's day as proof of no survivors, but reject the events of Lot's day that shows survivors, when determining if there will or will not be any mortal survivors after Christ has returned?

[John146]

BB2, but you have to take all Scriptures into consideration. Here's something Jesus said in relation to His 2nd coming.

Luke 17:28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

Verse 30 says...and destroyed them all. Everyone on the entire planet except for Lot and his family, or just everyone in this particular area? The point of course is this, not all the wicked people on the planet got destroyed during Lot's day, and the context is dealing with the 2nd coming. This can easily be seen from the following parallel perspective.

Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

No mention of Lot in this context, but this context matches the following context, which includes Lot in the context.

Luke 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

So here's what you basically have per Luke 17, which seems related to the 2nd coming. You have the flood where everyone on the entire planet were destroyed, except for 8 souls. Then you have only folks in a certain area destroyed, while on the rest of the planet, no one is destroyed. So why is it then, folks automatically accept the events of Noak's day as proof of no survivors, but reject the events of Lot's day that shows survivors, when determining if there will or will not be any mortal survivors after Christ has returned?

Does Luke 17:28-30 somehow change what is said in 2 Peter 3? You're right that we can't tell for certain the scope of the destruction that will occur at Christ's return from Luke 17:26-30 alone, but I believe Peter made it quite clear in 2 Peter 3 that the destruction that occurs at Christ's return will be global.

[billy-brown 2]

BB2, but you have to take all Scriptures into consideration. Here's something Jesus said in relation to His 2nd coming.

Luke 17:28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

Verse 30 says...and destroyed them all. Everyone on the entire planet except for Lot and his family, or just everyone in this particular area? The point of course is this, not all the wicked people on the planet got destroyed during Lot's day, and the context is dealing with the 2nd coming. This can easily be seen from the following parallel perspective.

Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

No mention of Lot in this context, but this context matches the following context, which includes Lot in the context.

Luke 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

So here's what you basically have per Luke 17, which seems related to the 2nd coming. You have the flood where everyone on the entire planet were destroyed, except for 8 souls. Then you have only folks in a certain area destroyed, while on the rest of the planet, no one is destroyed. So why is it then, folks automatically accept the events of Noak's day as proof of no survivors, but reject the events of Lot's day that shows survivors, when determining if there will or will not be any mortal survivors after Christ has returned?

Well, remember that there were no survivors in the examples Christ gives which mirror the Second coming; that's what Jesus is teaching about in the passage below, yes? Let's look at the context again:

Luke 17
26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.
32 Remember Lot's wife.
33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

Now, the text in blue bold tells us that all was destroyed indeed, yes? And the "all" that was destroyed has to be all of the unfaithful of the earth--as expressed here in the parallel passage below also:

Matt. 24
37“For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah.
38“For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark,
39and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be.
40“Then there will be two men in the field; one will be taken and one will be left.
41“Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one will be left.

And so, when Jesus speaks of the destruction of Sodom and so on, all He is doing is focusing on the "total destruction" aspect of the judgment destruction BY FIRE; He is not focusing on the fact that the judgment BY FIRE is "localized" to a few cities and so on.

Yep.

Thus, when we get to verses 31-33 of Luke 17:

Luke 17
31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.
32 Remember Lot's wife.
33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

we know that the context is made, yes? What context is that?

Well, let's look at it from Genesis 19:

Gen. 19
23The sun had risen over the earth when Lot came to Zoar.
24Then the LORD rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven,
25and He overthrew those cities, and all the valley, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and what grew on the ground.

26But his wife, from behind him, looked back, and she became a pillar of salt.

27Now Abraham arose early in the morning and went to the place where he had stood before the LORD;
28and he looked down toward Sodom and Gomorrah, and toward all the land of the valley, and he saw, and behold, the smoke of the land ascended like the smoke of a furnace.
29Thus it came about, when God destroyed the cities of the valley, that God remembered Abraham, and sent Lot out of the midst of the overthrow, when He overthrew the cities in which Lot lived.

Yep.

Indeed, Jesus does not want anyone to forfeit the reward for faith to be administered to the saints at the end of this age.

And the alternative to the reward, of course, is judgment BY FIRE; the unbelievers will experience that judgment. Indeed, all will be burned up: property as well as people--as suggested by Gen. 19:24-25 and II Pet. 3 below:

II Peter 3
10But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.
11Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness,
12looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat!
13But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.

Does this make sense?

[billy-brown 2]

(this is the continuation of the last post . . .)

With all that in mind, in order for those who are written in the Lamb's book of life to live and reign with Christ 1000 years, 2 things have to happen first. 1..they have to get over the beast and it's image. 2...the beast and false prophet have to be cast into the LOF. Revelation 20:4 clearly shows this, since it is speaking in past tense in relation to not worshiping the beast.

Maybe three things have to happen, yes? Let's see . . .

Rev. 20
4a And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded . . .

Stop right there. That's DEATH by beheading for the people of faith, and for refusing to be deceived by the beast to worship it:

Rev. 20
4b . . . I saw the souls of them that were beheaded . . . for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands . . .

In other words, where Satan the deceiver dwells, the beast dwells--and vice-versa:

Rev. 2
12“And to the angel of the church in Pergamum write:
The One who has the sharp two-edged sword says this:
13‘I know where you dwell, where Satan’s throne is; and you hold fast My name, and did not deny My faith even in the days of Antipas, My witness, My faithful one, who was killed among you, where Satan dwells.

And so, anyone who reigns with Christ as a result of the activity in Rev. 20:4a and 4b would have to include dead people of faith of the past; i. e. Antipas and others. In other words, those who say to the beast "I will not worship you" are Blessed and Holy; these are those indeed who have a part in the first resurrection--because they die for their faith. Additionally, the second death has no power over them; i. e., they will not be tossed into the lake of fire:

Rev. 20
4c . . . and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
5The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.
6Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

Rev. 20
14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
15And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

(go to the next post . . .)