The 2 wars in Rev 19 and 20. Same wars, or different wars?

[John146]

Revelation 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Let's look at these a little closer then, starting with the war in Rev 20.

And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

The way it looks to me, each and everyone one of them met their fate by being devoured by fire out of heaven. Now let's look at the war in ch 19.

And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone

The first thing to note, the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, these both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. These 2 then, they don't fit the fates of those in ch 20, because it says fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. But these in ch 19 are seen being cast into a LOF while still alive, thus the fire out of heaven couldn't have devoured them.

We've been over this before, but I believe you are making a mistake in thinking that the beast and false prophet represent living human beings. Look what the following says about the beast:

Rev 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Notice that the beast "was" before John wrote the book and "is not" at the time John wrote the book and then later would ascend out of the bottomless pit. How can that be describing a man who will eventually be cast alive into the lake of fire? That man would be thousands of years old by now. You're not recognizing that the beast and false prophet don't represent men at all. They are said to be cast alive into the lake of fire, but you need to remember that the beast (first beast) and false prophet (second beast) are symbols. They are symbolic entities being symbolically cast alive into the lake of fire. Just like death and hell are symbolically cast into the lake of fire (Rev 20:14). Death can't be literally cast into the lake of fire, right? So, the only way that your point here would be valid is if you could somehow show that the beast and false prophet represent living human beings, but I don't believe that is possible.

Also, the following supports the view that fire will be coming down upon the return of Christ, which would support the view that Rev 20:9 occurs at His coming and describes the same battle as Rev 19:

2 Thess 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

[John146]

A question in general. Why do folks often find it necessary to go outside of the book of Revelation in order to try and prove their view on the more seemingly difficult passages?

Because it's wise to interpret scripture with scripture. Why not use more clear scripture to help interpret the more difficult scripture? I'm amazed that you would have a problem with that concept.

[divaD]

Okay, David, if you insist on being so literal then I would think you would have no choice but to believe the following is speaking of literal kings, captains and mighty men literally sitting upon literal horses while being gathered for battle "against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.".

Rev 19:17And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; 18That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. 19And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

And you must also believe that Jesus will be literally sitting upon a literal horse when He returns. So, once Christ literally returns on a literal horse and literally kills all those kings and captains sitting on literal horses with the literal sword coming out of His mouth then the literal birds will come and eat the flesh of those kings, captains and horses. Is that how you see it?

Let me think on it a bit more. I know we've had this discussion before. But I need to ponder it some more. The part that has me wanting to ponder it further, is not the fact about literal swords coming out the mouth of Jesus, which I wouldn't even remotely take as literal, but these horses, since it says..That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses... When I think about it, this being modern times and all, do folks usually gather to battle on literal horses? So I would have to wonder what is meant by flesh of horses. Maybe horses in this context may be meaning thrones or something, since we see Jesus sitting on a horse, which could then denote a throne. If so, this could still work, because it would show Jesus making the kingdoms of this world His kingdom. So it's not that literal horses are being eaten by the ravenous birds, but that the kingdoms are. I still need to ponder this some more tho, but this is what presently is coming to mind as I am typing out this response.

[divaD]

Because it's wise to interpret scripture with scripture. Why not use more clear scripture to help interpret the more difficult scripture? I'm amazed that you would have a problem with that concept.

Honestly I don't have a problem with that concept at all, since I agree with it. But doesn't it seems strange that the book of Revelation can interpret itself via other portions of the book of Revelation, but when it comes to certain passages, one feels they need to look outside the book of Revelation in order to allegedly interpret that passage? Seriously tho, nothing wrong with that as long as the book of Revelation itself supports these other Scriptures outside the book. So when you all say the binding of the strongman explains why and how satan is bound, I would then have to ask where in Revelation is that supported?

[Beckrl]

Help me to understand this tho. The gospel, was there the gospel before Christ ever came? Was the gospel being preached to the nations before Christ came, except that the devil had the ability to deceive them about it at the time? According to Rev 20, the 1000 years is to stop him doing what he was doing prior to the 1000 years. The little season is so that he could then continue doing what he did before this 1000 years began. So you would have to show how the gospel was involved before this 1000 years begins, if you're concluding the gospel has something to do with the reason for the 1000 years..

Yes, The good news of the saviour Messiah is the bright light of knowledge. That knowledge to some degree was in the OT it foreshadowed the Messiah, even the ten commandments was a light unto the knowledge of God. The devil / satan from the very beginning as attempting to cover up God's truth. Then throughtout the OT satan deceived the nations it wasn't until the Son of God came and showed them in the flesh how to live and keep God's commandments.

In this when Jesus had commanded his disciples to go and teach and heal the sick that Jesus said that he saw Satan as if he was a star fallen from heaven. Jesus is saying in figurative speech that the power of Satan has now being casted down from it's high place. The disciples then sent out and begun to teach the good new that Jesus the son of God has come and set them free from the bondage that the where in by trying to keep the law in the flesh. This new covenant is one of the Spirit where the law was were and unable to sanctify the Spirit brought justication.

So the thousand years of the reign of Christ is from the preaching of the gospel until the little season that Satan is released to deceive once again. I would think that would have to do with those being deceived and believing a lie just before Jersualem is destroyed.

[divaD]

But this passage below (from Peter) indicates that there was water the first time, so there has to be fire next time, yes? And the water was global indeed the first time; thus, the fire has to be global also:

Personally I have always taken that flood to mean global. So I definitely hear what you're saying there. But too many things don't add up if the entire earth literally is ablaze. May as well throw a good portion of the OT out, since none of the prophecies could ever come to pass now, now that there wouldn't be anyone left because they all got burnt up, even tho Zech 14 for one tells us differently, that there will be survivors. And then you have Ez 39 showing not a world that is ablaze, but God showing His glory among the heathen.. The OT does not give us a picture of a world like that in the end, where the entire planet is ablaze. If so, where does it show that?

[ross3421]

Personally I don't take that literally, since that would contradict the fact that Zech 14 for one shows survivors after the Lord has returned. Can't imagine any survivors if the entire planet were ablaze. I believe there will be fires alright, but more of in a regional sense, than in a global sense. Plus it contradicts the fact that fowls literally feast on flesh, since that would be a bit difficult, the fire and smoke and all.

Cant the ones which survive be the born again resurrected from the grave?

[ross3421]

Since I tend to see the fowls of the air feasting on flesh as literal, and if the entire planet were ablaze at the same time, then it's nonsensical for fowls to be feasting on burning flesh, because of the fire and the smoke. You would have to convince me with Scriptures that fowls feasting on flesh isn't to be understood literally in this case.

No I see that the fowls feasting on flesh as literal as well. Well you have made me ponder the scripture and....... I think I have the answer.

Question, are there fowls in eternity?

These fowls are in "heaven" when the old world is destroyed by fire and will populate the new earth. They will have supper just as we will in celebration. Furthermore, there could be all sorts of beasts in heaven ala the first week of creation ready to populate once again the earth. Where do you think these animals will come from if they not be in heaven at the time of the second coming?

Re 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

[DDGresham1]

Perhaps references to "the world" means the world as they know it and not the entire planet. If I lived back then I would assume when I saw the middle east burning that it would be "the world"

[John 8:32]

Clearly two different wars. Separated by 1000 years.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Exactly! Rev 19 just before the millenium and Rev 20 at the end of the millenium. Ezek 38 occurs just at the start of the milleniun.

[Adstars]

Exactly! Rev 19 just before the millenium and Rev 20 at the end of the millenium. Ezek 38 occurs just at the start of the milleniun.

Well the thing is i believe Ezekiel 38 happens at the end of the 1000 Years. The Gog Magog of Ezekiel 38 is the same Gog Magog in Rev 20.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

[divaD]

Well the thing is i believe Ezekiel 38 happens at the end of the 1000 Years. The Gog Magog of Ezekiel 38 is the same Gog Magog in Rev 20.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

What about Ezekiel 39 then?

Ezekiel 39:17 And, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, even a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood.
18 Ye shall eat the flesh of the mighty, and drink the blood of the princes of the earth, of rams, of lambs, and of goats, of bullocks, all of them fatlings of Bashan.
19 And ye shall eat fat till ye be full, and drink blood till ye be drunken, of my sacrifice which I have sacrificed for you.
20 Thus ye shall be filled at my table with horses and chariots, with mighty men, and with all men of war, saith the Lord GOD.

Compare that to the following.

Revelation 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

Revelation 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.


Rev 19 calls it the supper of the great God. Ez 39 says..Thus ye shall be filled at my table with horses and chariots, with mighty men, and with all men of war Usually at the table is where one has supper. But not that there is literal table involved here. But it clearly shows Ez 39 and Rev 19 are connected and describing the same event, with Ez 39 going into the greater detail about it. And since Scripture is supposed to interpret Scripture, and that the NT usually brings light to the OT, then that's exactly what we see here. The NT is shedding light on the fact ye shall be filled at my table with horses and chariots, with mighty men, and with all men of war, is meaning supper of the great God in Rev 19, where we further learn is connected to the 2nd coming.

[divaD]

So the thousand years of the reign of Christ is from the preaching of the gospel until the little season that Satan is released to deceive once again. I would think that would have to do with those being deceived and believing a lie just before Jersualem is destroyed.

So then, does this mean you're connecting this to 70 AD, since you mentioned "just before Jersualem is destroyed"? If so, what lie would you be talking about that they believed at the time?

[divaD]

So, the only way that your point here would be valid is if you could somehow show that the beast and false prophet represent living human beings, but I don't believe that is possible.

Let me work on trying to prove that then. I'll see what I can come up with. But I wouldn't think they're 2 individuals, but that they represent individuals in a collective sense.

[John146]

Honestly I don't have a problem with that concept at all, since I agree with it. But doesn't it seems strange that the book of Revelation can interpret itself via other portions of the book of Revelation, but when it comes to certain passages, one feels they need to look outside the book of Revelation in order to allegedly interpret that passage? Seriously tho, nothing wrong with that as long as the book of Revelation itself supports these other Scriptures outside the book. So when you all say the binding of the strongman explains why and how satan is bound, I would then have to ask where in Revelation is that supported?

I'm not sure what you mean. Do you believe the strong man represents Satan? If so why wouldn't what Jesus said regarding the binding of the strong man not give some insight into the meaning of Rev 20 where it talks about the binding of Satan?