The 2 wars in Rev 19 and 20. Same wars, or different wars?

[John146]

What about Ezekiel 39 then?

Ezekiel 39:17 And, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, even a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood.
18 Ye shall eat the flesh of the mighty, and drink the blood of the princes of the earth, of rams, of lambs, and of goats, of bullocks, all of them fatlings of Bashan.
19 And ye shall eat fat till ye be full, and drink blood till ye be drunken, of my sacrifice which I have sacrificed for you.
20 Thus ye shall be filled at my table with horses and chariots, with mighty men, and with all men of war, saith the Lord GOD.

Compare that to the following.

Revelation 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

Revelation 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.


Rev 19 calls it the supper of the great God. Ez 39 says..Thus ye shall be filled at my table with horses and chariots, with mighty men, and with all men of war Usually at the table is where one has supper. But not that there is literal table involved here. But it clearly shows Ez 39 and Rev 19 are connected and describing the same event, with Ez 39 going into the greater detail about it. And since Scripture is supposed to interpret Scripture, and that the NT usually brings light to the OT, then that's exactly what we see here. The NT is shedding light on the fact ye shall be filled at my table with horses and chariots, with mighty men, and with all men of war, is meaning supper of the great God in Rev 19, where we further learn is connected to the 2nd coming.

The problem I see with relating those two passages directly together is that one of them seems to indicate mortal survivors (Eze 39) while the other one (Rev 19) does not. I have no idea how you can possibly see mortal survivors in Rev 19:11-21 when it says this:

Rev 19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. 19And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. 20And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Please tell me who exactly is not included among "all men, both free and bond, both small and great"? Who exactly is not included among "the remnant" that will be killed? What would be the difference between those who are killed and those who survive (besides one still being alive and one being dead)? Would those who survive just be lucky or would there be some reason why they would survive while the rest would not?

Another thing I wonder is why would you not directly relate Ezekiel 39:1-16 to Revelation 20:7-9 since both mention the destruction of Gog and Magog? I ask that because your basis for directly relating Ezekiel 39:17-20 to Rev 19:17-21 is because they are similar.

Ezekiel 39:1 Therefore, thou son of man, prophesy against Gog, and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal: 2And I will turn thee back, and leave but the sixth part of thee, and will cause thee to come up from the north parts, and will bring thee upon the mountains of Israel: 3And I will smite thy bow out of thy left hand, and will cause thine arrows to fall out of thy right hand. 4Thou shalt fall upon the mountains of Israel, thou, and all thy bands, and the people that is with thee: I will give thee unto the ravenous birds of every sort, and to the beasts of the field to be devoured. 5Thou shalt fall upon the open field: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD. 6And I will send a fire on Magog, and among them that dwell carelessly in the isles: and they shall know that I am the LORD.

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

If you believe these are not speaking of the same event then can you see how two passages can be similar but not speak of the same event? That's the mistake I believe you often make. You see two similar passages and automatically assume that they must be speaking of the same event when in actuality they are speaking of two different, but similar events. The similarities between passages like these are obvious but there are also differences between them that make it so that they cannot reasonably be speaking of the same event.

[John146]

Let me work on trying to prove that then. I'll see what I can come up with. But I wouldn't think they're 2 individuals, but that they represent individuals in a collective sense.

If you go into your study of them with the preconceived notion that "they represent individuals in a collective sense" then that's likely what you're going to see because that's what you want to see. Instead, you should study this objectively with an open mind without trying to prove they represent anything in particular. If you still think "they represent individuals in a collective sense" after you take a closer look then please tell me which individuals exactly they would represent.

[divaD]

I'm not sure what you mean. Do you believe the strong man represents Satan? If so why wouldn't what Jesus said regarding the binding of the strong man not give some insight into the meaning of Rev 20 where it talks about the binding of Satan?

I agree, the strongman is meaning satan. But Jesus already had him bound before the cross apparently, since He said that before He went to the cross. So that would have to mean if the 1000 years are now, they began before the cross, which doesn't make sense, because it says they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. I would think that would have to be after He has ascended to heaven at least. As I read thru Revelation leading up to ch 19 and 20, all I seem to see is deception by satan taking place. That would tell me those contexts can't be meaning the 1000 years. They perhaps could fit the little season that follows, since satan is seen deceiving once again. So where in the contexts of the book of Revelation would this 1000 years be being depicted?

[Beckrl]

So then, does this mean you're connecting this to 70 AD, since you mentioned "just before Jersualem is destroyed"? If so, what lie would you be talking about that they believed at the time?

Greetings David,

Yes I do connect those events to 70AD and take the 'little season' and satan being loosed around that time just before the revolt of 66AD until the destruction in 70AD. Those that rejected Jesus as the Messiah would not take his words nor warnings seriously. So those would have been consider 'blind, asleep, in darkness or dead' in an spiritual sence. When those were killed by Titus soldiers and laided in the streets John spoke as this being the second death where the soul and body is destoryed.

As to the lie mentioned they were already deceived by satan for they rejected Jesus as the Saviour, but in particular Paul spoke that God would casue them strong delusions, that they should believe a lie, that they might be damned... (2 Thess. 2:9-12)

In Revelation John mentions that those would see the miracles and signs that many where deceived and worshiped the beast. So other than the elders and rulers demanding that the priests to offer a sacrifice to Ceasar to keep peace among them and the Romans. This was the beginning of the revolt and as time went on those christians in Jersualem and around the city begun to see the warning signs that Jesus had told them. Rome had sent Cestius Gallus to put down the revolt, but instead he came and found a great resistance and left Jerusalem. The Jews follow his army and killed a great number. The Jews thought that they had beaten the Roman army and they by the power and leading of God delivered Jerusalem from her oppressor.

Those in the city believed this lie that God provided this victory, but it was only a delusion or error in thinking. In Revelation John attempts to write that satan has gather the nations, but it's God that consumes them. We might look that these events in the first century and see how God maked a way for his elect to be saved. They fleed to the mountains after Cestius Gallus flight from the city, but the wicked remained. Paul related that they might all be damned who believed not the truth.

There are other mentions by Josephus that in the time of the seige by Titus that there where 'false prophets' that where proclaiming that God by a sign in the sky 'comet as a sword' where going to onces again deliver them from their oppressors. (Wars of the Jews VI V 2-3)

[John146]

I agree, the strongman is meaning satan. But Jesus already had him bound before the cross apparently, since He said that before He went to the cross.

Just because He said that before He went to the cross doesn't mean it had happened yet. Do you believe He bound the strong man before He went to the cross? If not then why do you assume that amils believe that?

[Caleb]

I can only accept that it is two wars:

The beast and the false prophet make war and are cast into the LoF, and then the dragon is chained up and then starts the thousand years reign with Christ.
It has to be in this order as those who reign with Christ for the thousand years, are those who are brought to life, having been beheaded, and those who had not taken the mark or worshiped the beast and his image.

After the thousand years, Satan is released and comes to deceive the nations.

[Caleb]

I agree, the strongman is meaning satan. But Jesus already had him bound before the cross apparently, since He said that before He went to the cross. So that would have to mean if the 1000 years are now, they began before the cross, which doesn't make sense, because it says they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. I would think that would have to be after He has ascended to heaven at least. As I read thru Revelation leading up to ch 19 and 20, all I seem to see is deception by satan taking place. That would tell me those contexts can't be meaning the 1000 years. They perhaps could fit the little season that follows, since satan is seen deceiving once again. So where in the contexts of the book of Revelation would this 1000 years be being depicted?

It would also have to mean that the beast and false prophet were cast into the Lof before the cross, as they are cast in before the thousand years begins. Those who reign with Christ the thousand years, are those who are brought to life having been beheaded and not worshiped or taken the mark etc..

[The Beginner]

May I chime in?...

The problem I see with relating those two passages directly together is that one of them seems to indicate mortal survivors (Eze 39) while the other one (Rev 19) does not. I have no idea how you can possibly see mortal survivors in Rev 19:11-21 when it says this:

Rev 19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. 19And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. 20And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Please tell me who exactly is not included among "all men, both free and bond, both small and great"? Who exactly is not included among "the remnant" that will be killed? What would be the difference between those who are killed and those who survive (besides one still being alive and one being dead)? Would those who survive just be lucky or would there be some reason why they would survive while the rest would not?

To me the context of those being killed in Rev 19 are specifically those that are apart of the Beast's military and those that are present with him at the last battle. I do not believe every single human being on earth will be present at Armegeddon that remains alive... Too me

It seems that John is pulling from a passage he made earlier...

Rev 13:16 He causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads,

Do you believe that "all" here means every single human being on earth is going to receive the mark? No... the point is that "many" will...

Rev 7:15 And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders,[g] the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, 16 and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us

Do you believe every single human being is going to run into a mountain? What about people that don't live anywhere near a mountain? the point is more generic and broad IMO and represents "many".

Another thing I wonder is why would you not directly relate Ezekiel 39:1-16 to Revelation 20:7-9 since both mention the destruction of Gog and Magog? I ask that because your basis for directly relating Ezekiel 39:17-20 to Rev 19:17-21 is because they are similar.

Ezekiel 39:1 Therefore, thou son of man, prophesy against Gog, and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal: 2And I will turn thee back, and leave but the sixth part of thee, and will cause thee to come up from the north parts, and will bring thee upon the mountains of Israel: 3And I will smite thy bow out of thy left hand, and will cause thine arrows to fall out of thy right hand. 4Thou shalt fall upon the mountains of Israel, thou, and all thy bands, and the people that is with thee: I will give thee unto the ravenous birds of every sort, and to the beasts of the field to be devoured. 5Thou shalt fall upon the open field: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD. 6And I will send a fire on Magog, and among them that dwell carelessly in the isles: and they shall know that I am the LORD.

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

I think there are several problems relating Ezekiel 39 with Rev 20

1. There will be seven months of clean up and seven years of equipment burning. Are we to believe that there will be seven years of equipment burning into the New Heavens and New Earth?
2. The will be a massive burial ground for Gog and his armies in a geographical location in Israel. This does not fit a Rev 20 context with the establishment of the GWT and New Heaven and Earth directly after the battle

[billy-brown 2]

Personally I have always taken that flood to mean global. So I definitely hear what you're saying there. But too many things don't add up if the entire earth literally is ablaze. May as well throw a good portion of the OT out, since none of the prophecies could ever come to pass now, now that there wouldn't be anyone left because they all got burnt up, even tho Zech 14 for one tells us differently, that there will be survivors. And then you have Ez 39 showing not a world that is ablaze, but God showing His glory among the heathen.. The OT does not give us a picture of a world like that in the end, where the entire planet is ablaze. If so, where does it show that?

LOL

There is no need for us to toss the OT; after all, the OT was John the Revelator's Bible, yes? And when John saw all the VISIONS on Patmos, he wrote them down using a lot of OT allusions and so on.

And apparently, Peter knew the OT also, because the flood of Noah is referenced in II Peter 3:5-6:

II Peter 3
3Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts,
4and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation.”
5For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that

by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water,
6through which the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water.

And II Peter 3:7 indicates that "by His word" . . . the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire:

7But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

Now, what word would that be?

Well the Lord God is a consuming fire, yes? And here are just a few allusions to that:

Deut. 4
23“So watch yourselves, that you do not forget the covenant of the LORD your God which He made with you, and make for yourselves a graven image in the form of anything against which the LORD your God has commanded you.
24“For the LORD your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God.

Heb. 12
28Therefore, since we receive a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us show gratitude, by which we may offer to God an acceptable service with reverence and awe;
29for our God is a consuming fire.

Mal. 4
1“For behold, the day is coming, burning like a furnace; and all the arrogant and every evildoer will be chaff; and the day that is coming will set them ablaze,” says the LORD of hosts, “so that it will leave them neither root nor branch.”
2“But for you who fear My name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its wings; and you will go forth and skip about like calves from the stall.
3“You will tread down the wicked, for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day which I am preparing,” says the LORD of hosts.

Psalm 50
1The Mighty One, God, the LORD, has spoken,
And summoned the earth from the rising of the sun to its setting.
2Out of Zion, the perfection of beauty,
God has shone forth.
3May our God come and not keep silence;
Fire devours before Him,
And it is very tempestuous around Him.

Yes?

[Adstars]

What about Ezekiel 39 then?

Ezekiel 39:17 And, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, even a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood.
18 Ye shall eat the flesh of the mighty, and drink the blood of the princes of the earth, of rams, of lambs, and of goats, of bullocks, all of them fatlings of Bashan.
19 And ye shall eat fat till ye be full, and drink blood till ye be drunken, of my sacrifice which I have sacrificed for you.
20 Thus ye shall be filled at my table with horses and chariots, with mighty men, and with all men of war, saith the Lord GOD.

Compare that to the following.

Revelation 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

Revelation 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.


Rev 19 calls it the supper of the great God. Ez 39 says..Thus ye shall be filled at my table with horses and chariots, with mighty men, and with all men of war Usually at the table is where one has supper. But not that there is literal table involved here. But it clearly shows Ez 39 and Rev 19 are connected and describing the same event, with Ez 39 going into the greater detail about it. And since Scripture is supposed to interpret Scripture, and that the NT usually brings light to the OT, then that's exactly what we see here. The NT is shedding light on the fact ye shall be filled at my table with horses and chariots, with mighty men, and with all men of war, is meaning supper of the great God in Rev 19, where we further learn is connected to the 2nd coming.

They are similar because the same thing will happen at the end of both battles. The bodies will be food for the beasts and the birds.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

[billy-brown 2]

Clearly two different wars. Separated by 1000 years.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

The critical phrase in this is as follows (in bold):

Rev. 19
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

This is a "gathering to make war"--not the war itself . . .

Indeed, there is NO war in this passage, because only Christ gets to fire a shot. And He only needs one shot:

Rev. 19
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Rev. 20
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

This is a clear mismatch . . . Notice the opponents:

THE WORD OF GOD (immortal YHWH)

vs.

the beast and his forces (mortals under satan).

Interesting . . . the mortals do not have a chance at all . . .

Thus, there is "the gathering for the war of that great day of God Almighty" only . . . it is indeed a gathering for destruction, because the beast and his forces do not have a chance at firing a shot at all . . .

Rev. 16
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

Yes?

[Adstars]

Well billy brown 2 do you believe there will be two different wars 1000 years apart? Your post above seems to be saying that the human army's massed will have no chance. Well i agree they will not even get a shot in. Like an army of ants in fine array and then a giant foot comes down and Splat...... silence.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

[Adstars]

Another piece of good information showing that the two battles are different. In Revelation 19 at the end of the battle the Anti-christ and the false prophet are cast into the Lake of Fire but satan is not, he is bound and cast into the bottomless Pit.



Revelation 19
¹⁹ And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. ²⁰ Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. ²¹ And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.

The very next verses at the start of Chapter 20 we see where satan was cast:


Revelation 20
1 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. ² He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; ³ and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished.

Satan is cast into the bottomless pit. But note the word till in verse 3. That is the same as untill. meaning he shall decieve the nations after the 1000 years are finished.


We go onto the second war mentioned at the end of Chapter 20.

Revelation 20
⁷ Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison ⁸ and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. ⁹ They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. ¹⁰The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where^[b] the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

So when the 1000 Years have ended/expired satan will be released from the bottomless pit and go out to deceive the nations. He shall gather the nations to attack Jerusalem and like the former army this one will be liquidated without a fight. But we read that only after this second battle is satan/devil cast into the Lake of fire. In this battle the anti-chrst and the false prophet are not cast into the lake of fire they are already there. They have been in there for 1000 years.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

[billy-brown 2]

Well billy brown 2 do you believe there will be two different wars 1000 years apart? Your post above seems to be saying that the human army's massed will have no chance. Well i agree they will not even get a shot in. Like an army of ants in fine array and then a giant foot comes down and Splat...... silence.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

LOL

Yep . . . you got it . . .

Indeed, how will any mortal army get a shot off against our WORD OF GOD? He is the triumphant IMMORTAL King, yes?

And remember, there is NO WAR at all-- it is a gathering of deceived armies only by Satan the dragon . . . just look at the phrasing:

. . . to gather them together to battle . . . (Rev. 20)

. . . to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty . . . (Rev. 16)

. . . gathered together to make war . . . (Rev. 19)

Yep.

Then, once they are gathered all together, the WORD OF GOD simply "Splats" 'em--like a big foot on ants . . .

(hint . . . hint . . . it's only one "gathering" . . . for destruction by our GOD . . .)

[John146]

I can only accept that it is two wars:

The beast and the false prophet make war and are cast into the LoF, and then the dragon is chained up and then starts the thousand years reign with Christ.
It has to be in this order as those who reign with Christ for the thousand years, are those who are brought to life, having been beheaded, and those who had not taken the mark or worshiped the beast and his image.

After the thousand years, Satan is released and comes to deceive the nations.

You assume Rev 19 and 20 should be read chronologically. Have you ever considered that they might instead be parallel rather than chronological?