Innocent teen shoot and killed;police do nothing

[keck553]

We don't know that it's self defense. We don't know anything right now.

I thought this was America. You know, where people have the right to walk on a public street without being accosted by self appointed vigilantes. But apparently Florida has their own rules.

I believe this statement is a stretch. No one has even suggested Trayvon was "accosted."

[Fenris]

I believe this statement is a stretch. No one has even suggested Trayvon was "accosted."

And no one aside from the shooter himself suggested that Trayvon attacked him. But most here seem fine with that.

[keck553]

How does this justify someone getting shot? Really.

Huh? I wasn't addressing justification for using lethal force in self defense. I was addressing you comments about vigilantes and police investigations.

[keck553]

And no one aside from the shooter himself suggested that Trayvon attacked him. But most here seem fine with that.

Really? There is a witness statement about Trayvon over Zimmerman bashing his head on concrete and Zimmerman pleading for help. Do we dismiss that because it doesn' t agree with our view?

[Fenris]

Really? There is a witness statement about Trayvon over Zimmerman bashing his head on concrete and Zimmerman pleading for help. Do we dismiss that because it doesn' t agree with our view?

That tells us they were fighting. It doesn't tell us who started the fight.

Zimmerman was following Trayvon. Zimmerman suspected Trayvon of criminality. Zimmerman outweighed Trayvon by 100 pounds. Zimmerman was armed with a gun.

Maybe he started the fight, hmm?

[keck553]

That tells us they were fighting. It doesn't tell us who started the fight.

__ Zimmerman was following Trayvon. Zimmerman suspected Trayvon of criminality. Zimmerman outweighed Trayvon by 100 pounds. Zimmerman was armed with a gun.

Maybe he started the fight, hmm?

I don't know. I weigh more than most teens and sometimes carry a CW but I don't start fights. So that information is of no use to me.

It all boils down to allowing due process to run its course and witness testimony to be properly accessed. Isn't that how justice works? Isn't due process and reliable witness testimony and fair measure also a Torah mitzvahs?

I do want to defend or condemn either party. I simply am pleading for proper dispensing of due process in lieu of speculation and assumption.

[Brother Mark]

And no one aside from the shooter himself suggested that Trayvon attacked him. But most here seem fine with that.

Apparently there was an eye witness. I am not happy about anyone's "reported" behavior in this episode. If someone is leaving, if you HAVE to follow, follow at a distance. If I had been Trayvon, I would have ran like crazy. Here's what NRO is reporting on the issue.

But such outrage should be restrained until we have all of the facts. Zimmerman’s call to the police, which has been heard over and over again, does not appear to tell the whole story. There is other information that appears to back up the shooter’s account. That evidence, rather than racism, might well be the reason that police chose not to arrest the shooter. Fox 35 in Orlando spoke to one eyewitness, identified as “John,” the day after the shooting. He explained: “The guy on the bottom who had a red sweater on was yelling to me: ‘Help, help’ . . . and I told him to stop and I was calling 9-1-1.”

The witness further indicated that it was the guy on top who was doing the hitting, and that the shot occurred while that attack was taking place. The man who shot Martin, George Zimmerman, was the man in the red jacket. The police report corroborates the witness’s account: “While I was in such close contact with Zimmerman, I could observe that his back appeared to be wet and was covered in grass, as if he had been laying on his back on the ground. Zimmerman was also bleeding from the nose and back of his head.” Zimmerman told the police, “I was yelling for someone to help me, but no one would help me.”

http://www.nationalreview.com/articl...john-r-lott-jr

My issue with how this was reported is how do we know that Trayvon wasn't defending himself? How did the fight start? I will tell you this, if I tried to get away from someone following me, and they came after me, I would be looking for something to defend myself with and pray to God I could get away without using it.

Thing is, we may never know what really went down. It seems to me that a jury trial is in order. But then, Florida law will likely decide that.

[Fenris]

I don't know. I weigh more than most teens and sometimes carry a CW but I don't start fights.

You're also not a self-appointed 'neighborhood watch' cop-wannabee.

It all boils down to allowing due process to run its course and witness testimony to be properly accessed.

Yeah. Florida courts. Yay.

Isn't that how justice works? Isn't due process and reliable witness testimony and fair measure also a Torah mitzvahs?

People seem to find what they want in the Torah.

[Fenris]

My issue with how this was reported is how do we know that Trayvon wasn't defending himself? How did the fight start.

Unknown. I do not understand why the police and the DA's office buy Zimmerman's story and refuse to arrest.

[Brother Mark]

Unknown. I do not understand why the police and the DA's office buy Zimmerman's story and refuse to arrest.

I am hearing the police wanted to arrest and charge but it was the state DA who said no. But again, in a case like this, what we hear now may or may not be the truth. Lot's of people will want to put their spin on it before the real story comes out.

[keck553]

You're also not a self-appointed 'neighborhood watch' cop-wannabee.

I don't know if the above statement is subjective or based on hard evidence. Do you know if "self-appointed" and "cop wannabee" is established fact that would stand the test of the courts? What do you base this statement on? The media? Come, you know the media is unreliable when it comes to characterizations.

Yeah. Florida courts. Yay.

That standard is applicable in all 50 states, is it not? Can you tell me which state routinely tosses someone in jail for self-defense? Because I don't want to ever be in a state that ignores the bill of rights.

People seem to find what they want in the Torah.

So reliable witnesses and due process are not precepts in Torah? Is that what you are saying?

[keck553]

Unknown. I do not understand why the police and the DA's office buy Zimmerman's story and refuse to arrest.

Maybe they lack enough evidence at this time to make a legal arrest? I know the news media and citizen's opinions based on news reports are not usually considered a replacement for our justice system. I do know the news media would love to cover city's burning and I don't think they are too shy to instigate something to create a new marketplace to justify their existence.

But hey, if there are cop-wannabees, why not prosecutor wannabees or jury-wannabees? Maybe even executor wannbees? Last I heard NBP had a $10,000.00 bounty on Zimmerman's head. Maybe they should just stick his head on a pike and hand him over. Apparently he's already guilty and condemned, why bother with a trial (in reference to NBP)?

[diffangle]

The witness further indicated that it was the guy on top who was doing the hitting, and that the shot occurred while that attack was taking place.

I don't think anyone is denying that Trayvon may have hit Zimmerman. What I don't get is why Zimmerman, being the much bigger guy, couldn't have tried hitting/kicking/whatever him back first before grabbing his gun and shooting the kid. Zimmerman says that Trayvon went for his gun, why hasn't the eyewitness verified that and why was Trayvon so strong as to prevent Zimmerman from throwing any punches himself but not strong enough to get a hold of the gun he was going for? And if Zimmerman's injuries were so life-threatening then why wait a day before seeking medical treatment?

[Brother Mark]

I don't think anyone is denying that Trayvon may have hit Zimmerman. What I don't get is why Zimmerman, being the much bigger guy, couldn't have tried hitting/kicking/whatever him back first before grabbing his gun and shooting the kid. Zimmerman says that Trayvon went for his gun, why hasn't the eyewitness verified that and why was Trayvon so strong as to prevent Zimmerman from throwing any punches himself but not strong enough to get a hold of the gun he was going for? And if Zimmerman's injuries were so life-threatening then why wait a day before seeking medical treatment?

When someone pops you in the nose hard enough to break it, and you are flat of your back, and then they are pounding you, it's very HARD to get that situation turned around. Not justifying Zimmerman's prior actions. But when a 6'2 person is on top of you hitting you, you are not exactly in a situation where you can use your strength.

That said, Zimmerman should not have followed the guy so close that something like this could happen. The law definitely needs to look into it and as Fenris stated, it probably should be settled in court.

But I don't think this is so cut and dried as either side is trying to make it out to be. And for me, if I see someone with sunglasses and a hoodie coming by me, I am getting out of the way regardless of what color they are. That just doesn't pass the "safe" test to me. Call me judgmental. I would want to be safe in that situation and my first thoughts upon seeing a hoodie with sunglasses in warm weather is "why are they hiding their face?". Of course, I don't even know if the guy was wearing glasses or not.

All that said, If I was in Trayvon's shoes, Zimmerman would have worried me big time and I would have tried to get out of there like crazy. I would have felt threatened for sure and used force if necessary, to escape.

[keck553]

I don't think anyone is denying that Trayvon may have hit Zimmerman. What I don't get is why Zimmerman, being the much bigger guy, couldn't have tried hitting/kicking/whatever him back first before grabbing his gun and shooting the kid. Zimmerman says that Trayvon went for his gun, why hasn't the eyewitness verified that and why was Trayvon so strong as to prevent Zimmerman from throwing any punches himself but not strong enough to get a hold of the gun he was going for? And if Zimmerman's injuries were so life-threatening then why wait a day before seeking medical treatment?

Ever try to throw a punch when you're on your back? Try experimenting with that while having someone use your head as a jackhammer and let us know how that works out.

We don't know what Zimmerman tried to do before he used his handgun. It was dark. We don't know what people saw other than what the news media allows us to know, we don't know what transpired before the witnesses became aware of the situation, how much visibility they had, etc., and we have no idea what the media left out or if thei included information subjectively. That is why we have courts, to discover the facts and evidence and present them in a non-hysterical format.

We know he was screaming for help. For all we know Trayvon was trying to unholster his gun. But we don't know, so speculation only feeds emotions at this point.