Are we born spiritually alive or dead?

[awestruckchild]

Oh no, John!
Oh no!
I did NOT mean to say you were being harsh!
I was trying to express to you that I don't respond sometimes until I know - or think I know - by seeing someones posts for a while, that they are going to have a civil and warm conversation!
I was saying that I paid quite a bit of attention to your post, but was explaining why I didn't answer to it.
I will read the rest of your post here after I get over my shock at coming across that way. I'm sorry.

[Beckrl]

C'mon People this one is an easy one. One must be spiritually alive before one can become spiritually dead and thereafter spiritually rasied from the dead.

Paul told the Ephesians that they where onces dead and now alive being made quicken by the Spirit. In this case they where first alive becasue they knew not their sins it was only by the Law that they became aware of their sins and is described as being dead in sin.

[Galatians 2:21]

I tend to agree with you. I don't believe babies are born "dead in sins" (in the sense that Paul talks about in Eph 2).

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. 8But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. 9For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

It seems to me that Paul considers himself to have died (become dead in sins) once he learned what sin was by way of the law (of Moses), which would means he did not believe he was dead in sins until then. So, it seems to be the case that one is not accountable for sin until they can understand what sin is. That makes sense to me.

Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

Paul seems to associate being "dead in trespasses and sins" with walking "according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air". Well, it doesn't seem like babies or young children are even capable of walking "according to the course of this world" because they have so little awareness of things. So, again, I don't think we are born "dead in sins", I think we all have a strong natural tendency to sin and we all do sin once we are old enough to actually do so. But I don't see how someone can be dead in sins without actually having sinned first.

I agree with this. Paul stated that the Law deceived him, and it slew him. You can't "slew" something that is already dead.

[Galatians 2:21]

C'mon People this one is an easy one. One must be spiritually alive before one can become spiritually dead and thereafter spiritually rasied from the dead.

Paul told the Ephesians that they where onces dead and now alive being made quicken by the Spirit. In this case they where first alive becasue they knew not their sins it was only by the Law that they became aware of their sins and is described as being dead in sin.

[divaD]

Okay, but I'm not talking about the word used in Isaiah. I looked up the one used in Genesis and Jeremiah. Where you are talking about, it lists the definition of the original word to be: squeezed into shape. I'm confused. I always thought that the original Hebrew words in the two places were actually different words with different meanings, even though we translated them as the same word...if you just use the words we translated it into all the time, you fail to see that they WEREN'T the same word originally in Hebrew....

Awestruckchild, just so that I can get on the same page with you, could you remind me of what this other word was? Was it the same word we were talking about the other day when I mentioned that it was also found in Jeremiah 4? Sorry for all the confusion, just kind of hard to concentrate some times.

If you're meaning bohuw, then I guess I should redefine what I said in an earlier post, that tohuw would mean empty space. Actually that's what I would see bohuw meaning..emptiness. So then, since it's unlikely bohuw and tohuw mean the same thing in Gen 1:2, I would then conclude tohuw means without form.

It would look like this.

Genesis 1:2 And the earth was without form, and EMPTY; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

With that in mind, let's go over to Jeremiah 4.

Jeremiah 4:23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and EMPTY; and the heavens, and they had no light

IMO, the way to understand verse 23, this would be after the fact. After the fact of verse 27-29.

Jeremiah 4:27 For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.
28 For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black: because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it.
29 The whole city shall flee for the noise of the horsemen and bowmen; they shall go into thickets, and climb up upon the rocks: every city shall be forsaken, and not a man dwell therein.

This explains verse 23 IMO. So then, even tho we see similar wording in Genesis 1:2, does that then mean we should understand it in the same sense as we might in Jeremiah 4? If so, then where are the Scriptures that tell us what happened and why, like we see here in Jeremiah 4?

Also, I wouldn't think earth in Jeremiah 4:23 was meaning the entire planet, but that it was being region specific instead. The same Hebrew word for earth is also translated as land in that very same chapter. That same Hebrew word for land is translated as earth in Genesis 1:2. I would think it's meaning the entire earth there. So already there would be no reason to interpret Gen 1:2 in the same sense as Jeremiah 4:23, since one is talking about the entire planet, and the other is meaning region specific.

[awestruckchild]

Awestruckchild, just so that I can get on the same page with you, could you remind me of what this other word was? Was it the same word we were talking about the other day when I mentioned that it was also found in Jeremiah 4? Sorry for all the confusion, just kind of hard to concentrate some times.

If you're meaning bohuw, then I guess I should redefine what I said in an earlier post, that tohuw would mean empty space. Actually that's what I would see bohuw meaning..emptiness. So then, since it's unlikely bohuw and tohuw mean the same thing in Gen 1:2, I would then conclude tohuw means without form.

It would look like this.

Genesis 1:2 And the earth was without form, and EMPTY; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

With that in mind, let's go over to Jeremiah 4.

Jeremiah 4:23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and EMPTY; and the heavens, and they had no light

IMO, the way to understand verse 23, this would be after the fact. After the fact of verse 27-29.

Jeremiah 4:27 For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.
28 For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black: because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it.
29 The whole city shall flee for the noise of the horsemen and bowmen; they shall go into thickets, and climb up upon the rocks: every city shall be forsaken, and not a man dwell therein.

This explains verse 23 IMO. So then, even tho we see similar wording in Genesis 1:2, does that then mean we should understand it in the same sense as we might in Jeremiah 4? If so, then where are the Scriptures that tell us what happened and why, like we see here in Jeremiah 4?

Also, I wouldn't think earth in Jeremiah 4:23 was meaning the entire planet, but that it was being region specific instead. The same Hebrew word for earth is also translated as land in that very same chapter. That same Hebrew word for land is translated as earth in Genesis 1:2. I would think it's meaning the entire earth there. So already there would be no reason to interpret Gen 1:2 in the same sense as Jeremiah 4:23, since one is talking about the entire planet, and the other is meaning region specific.

I don't know DivaD. Yeah, we seem to be on different pages.
If the definition of the words "without form", number 8414 and the definition of the word "void" have all of the definitions I have given, and if the other definitions I have given are correct, then taking the whole thing together and getting a "feel" for the overall context, I don't see that it just means "benignly empty." I could accept that if I had not read and translated the entire passage, but since I did, it just isn't the feel of the whole thing taken together. The feel of it all if you look all of the words up and take the entire passage in context is: until He said for the light to shine here, it was a butt ugly and dire situation.
I know you said you don't want to look it up for yourself, and the definitions I gave of all the words haven't at all given you the same feel for the entire passage as I got, so I'm kind of stumped. I don't know HOW to get on the same page...sorry.

[awestruckchild]

Okay John,
I'm over my shock and I have read the rest of your post.
Something that Jesus said came to my mind and wouldn't go away the whole time I was thinking about what you posted.
He talked to people in a city and said that it was going to be very woeful for them and that even Sodom and...Corazin? would be better off than them, because if they'd had the opportunity to hear the message He was giving to them, the people would have repented.

This got me back to something that always confused me every time I read it. How can Sodom be better off than someone else who doesn't know Jesus? Eternally dead is eternally dead. There aren't different degrees of eternally dead are there?

So I can see what you are saying. It at least makes some sort of sense to me now, because I think Jesus was saying that because the message was never preached to them, their sins were not going to be held against them...otherwise, what could "better off than you" mean?

So I believe you are maybe right in this. I am still struggling with it though. But it is usually when I can tie what Jesus said in with something else that I will accept it.

[Galatians 2:21]

In Luke 15, look closely @ this verse:

24For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

The son was alive before he left his father's house. Or else the father would have said, "my son is finally alive."

[awestruckchild]

Hmmm....so the question is, did the son know his fathers will before he took off?
Did he know what his father expected of him?
Didhe know his fathers "commandments"?

[Watchman]

C'mon People this one is an easy one. One must be spiritually alive before one can become spiritually dead and thereafter spiritually rasied from the dead.

Paul told the Ephesians that they where onces dead and now alive being made quicken by the Spirit. In this case they where first alive becasue they knew not their sins it was only by the Law that they became aware of their sins and is described as being dead in sin.

Then, are you of the pov that we are born with the indwelling Holy Spirit?

W

[LookingUp]

I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died. The very commandment that promised life proved to be death to me. For sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me. (Romans 7)

Like Paul says: we're alive to begin with, but when we come to know God's law, we die.

This is exactly what I was going to post.

[LookingUp]

I tend to agree with you. I don't believe babies are born "dead in sins" (in the sense that Paul talks about in Eph 2).

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. 8But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. 9For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

It seems to me that Paul considers himself to have died (become dead in sins) once he learned what sin was by way of the law (of Moses), which would means he did not believe he was dead in sins until then. So, it seems to be the case that one is not accountable for sin until they can understand what sin is. That makes sense to me.

Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

Paul seems to associate being "dead in trespasses and sins" with walking "according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air". Well, it doesn't seem like babies or young children are even capable of walking "according to the course of this world" because they have so little awareness of things. So, again, I don't think we are born "dead in sins", I think we all have a strong natural tendency to sin and we all do sin once we are old enough to actually do so. But I don't see how someone can be dead in sins without actually having sinned first.

Yeah! I completely agree with you! :-)

[awestruckchild]

Then, are you of the pov that we are born with the indwelling Holy Spirit?

W

Yes, it is good to get back to this since it regards the actual OP!
I don't know how we get so off topic....
This is specifically why I began to look the verses up and find the Hebrew definitions to see what was said about wh.at Dani was saying about the different types of life/breath.
But then I got to the point of Adam and did not find that it seemed to be saying that Adam had anything extra special breathed into him.

Soul just translates as "living flesh" and the same word for "breathe" is used regarding the animals AND us.

However, it would have become changed anyway probably after the fall.

I don;t agree that there is no such thing as spiritually dead, blind, deaf. I believe I was born spiritually dead because I could not see or hear God.

Then the point got to whether or not we were held RESPONSIBLE for our birth estate and I have been convinced that it has to do with hearing the law and at that point we become responsible, i.e., our sins are counted to us as sins. (Though I have some knots, because just hearing the law does not make a man see, so I believe he is still blind and am having a problem that a man born blind has his blindness counted as his fault.)

I kind of wish Epi would come in here...though sometimes I can't fully understand what he is saying...

Edit to add: Mt other knot is the idea that we are born fully capable of hearing, connecting to, and obeying God. If we were born fully capable of this, more of us would go from cradle to grave connected to Him, and also it does not explain to me why Jesus came and taught us.

[John146]

Oh no, John!
Oh no!
I did NOT mean to say you were being harsh!
I was trying to express to you that I don't respond sometimes until I know - or think I know - by seeing someones posts for a while, that they are going to have a civil and warm conversation!
I was saying that I paid quite a bit of attention to your post, but was explaining why I didn't answer to it.
I will read the rest of your post here after I get over my shock at coming across that way. I'm sorry.

Okay, no problem.

[John146]

Yeah! I completely agree with you! :-)

It's more fun to agree, isn't it?