Are we born spiritually alive or dead?

[Galatians 2:21]

I know that this is a very debateable topic, and let's keep this civil. But, what do y'all think?

I think we are born alive, and then die after God accounts/imputes sin unto us. I am throwing this in the ring, just to show what I believe. I am not baiting anyone, just want everyone's responses in a civil manner.

[Colight]

I know that this is a very debateable topic, and let's keep this civil. But, what do y'all think?

I think we are born alive, and then die after God accounts/imputes sin unto us. I am throwing this in the ring, just to show what I believe. I am not baiting anyone, just want everyone's responses in a civil manner.

Whose sin does God account?
Adams or our own?

Also when does God account this sin upon us and why?

[episkopos]

We are all born in Adam. So we are born apart from God's Spirit. So we are spiritually dead.

However there are cases of men who are given the Spirit from birth. John the Baptist is a case in point. God quickens as He wills.

[Paccls]

I know that this is a very debateable topic, and let's keep this civil. But, what do y'all think?

I think we are born alive, and then die after God accounts/imputes sin unto us. I am throwing this in the ring, just to show what I believe. I am not baiting anyone, just want everyone's responses in a civil manner.

It is my belief that one is born without sin stain, one is born upright;

Eccl 7:29
29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.
KJV

[Kahtar]

My understanding:
We were in Adam when he sinned. His sin separated him from his Lifesource, God. Since we were there, in Adam, we also were separated from our Life Source.
Thus, we are born separated from our Life Source, and thus, dead. This is where the concept of 'twice dead' comes from. Those who die in their sins and are thrown into the Lake of Fire are twice dead.
We do not inherit Adam's sin. But, being separated from God, and that guiding Spirit within us, we tend toward sin from the beginning, thus we see 2 year olds responding with lies.
When we accept Christ, we are 'born again' in spirit, and raised up and seated with Christ in heavenly places. Thus our spirit has experienced death(separation from Life) and resurrection.

[markedward]

I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died. The very commandment that promised life proved to be death to me. For sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me. (Romans 7)

Like Paul says: we're alive to begin with, but when we come to know God's law, we die.

[awestruckchild]

Good thread. Very nice to meet you.

On the day that you eat it, you will die. This is the verse.
Did Adam and Eve die on that day?
Of course not. They lived way longer in years than we do.
So what does it mean?
The conclusion I come to is that it means they died spiritually.
So as to whether we are born spiritually dead or spiritually alive,
Can a dead man give life to a child he produces?
In other words, if HE is dead, and he brings forth of his own kind....

[John146]

I know that this is a very debateable topic, and let's keep this civil. But, what do y'all think?

I think we are born alive, and then die after God accounts/imputes sin unto us. I am throwing this in the ring, just to show what I believe. I am not baiting anyone, just want everyone's responses in a civil manner.

I tend to agree with you. I don't believe babies are born "dead in sins" (in the sense that Paul talks about in Eph 2).

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. 8But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. 9For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

It seems to me that Paul considers himself to have died (become dead in sins) once he learned what sin was by way of the law (of Moses), which would means he did not believe he was dead in sins until then. So, it seems to be the case that one is not accountable for sin until they can understand what sin is. That makes sense to me.

Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

Paul seems to associate being "dead in trespasses and sins" with walking "according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air". Well, it doesn't seem like babies or young children are even capable of walking "according to the course of this world" because they have so little awareness of things. So, again, I don't think we are born "dead in sins", I think we all have a strong natural tendency to sin and we all do sin once we are old enough to actually do so. But I don't see how someone can be dead in sins without actually having sinned first.

[awestruckchild]

I tend to agree with you. I don't believe babies are born "dead in sins" (in the sense that Paul talks about in Eph 2).

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. 8But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. 9For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

It seems to me that Paul considers himself to have died (become dead in sins) once he learned what sin was by way of the law (of Moses), which would means he did not believe he was dead in sins until then. So, it seems to be the case that one is not accountable for sin until they can understand what sin is. That makes sense to me.

Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

Paul seems to associate being "dead in trespasses and sins" with walking "according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air". Well, it doesn't seem like babies or young children are even capable of walking "according to the course of this world" because they have so little awareness of things. So, again, I don't think we are born "dead in sins", I think we all have a strong natural tendency to sin and we all do sin once we are old enough to actually do so. But I don't see how someone can be dead in sins without actually having sinned first.

To be dead in your sins means to be without Christ, right?
And if you are born spiritually dead, wouldn't that mean you were born dead in your sins?
Of course, I maybe shouldn't assume that you think like me that we are born spiritually dead.
Might only make sense to me

[Dani H]

Sorry but I see no such thing as "spiritually dead" anywhere in the Bible.

I see only death coming in through sin. Adam and Eve died the second they ate. That was when death began. I don't see God divide death up into categories. Death is death is death is death. Death is corruption, and once that corruption process sets in ... it takes over. You can see that in the physical via a process called "necrosis". Once tissue starts dying ... that process of necrosis invades healthy tissue and can be stopped only by excision of the necrosed tissue until only viable tissue remains. Death kills everything it touches.

Physical death was merely the logical product of a death process that started the second disobedience took place. The soul that sins shall surely die. So they did. And, with every generation following you see the physical lifespan dwindling. Also a logical progression.

Death/corruption affects people's beings. It just does. That is why God had to redeem our entire being. Some day that body will be sown in corruption and raised in victory, because God's resurrection, life-giving power trumps death, all of it, period.

Death affects all of creation. Plants, animals ... you name it. Everything is touched by it. Nothing remained untouched. So all creation groans for redemption from its Maker.

That's my 2pence anyway.

As to who is born what way ... I had a connection to God as a child. I know I did. I then lost it due to ... I can't even remember how. Doesn't really matter, I guess. Glad He got me back though. Whew.

[awestruckchild]

So you definitely don't see us as being born spiritually dead, blind, and deaf.
I am guessing then that you see spiritual death coming with the "second death?"
Just guessing.

[divaD]

Sorry but I see no such thing as "spiritually dead" anywhere in the Bible.

I see only death coming in through sin. Adam and Eve died the second they ate. That was when death began. I don't see God divide death up into categories. Death is death is death is death. Death is corruption, and once that corruption process sets in ... it takes over. You can see that in the physical via a process called "necrosis". Once tissue starts dying ... that process of necrosis invades healthy tissue and can be stopped only by excision of the necrosed tissue until only viable tissue remains. Death kills everything it touches.

Physical death was merely the logical product of a death process that started the second disobedience took place. The soul that sins shall surely die. So they did. And, with every generation following you see the physical lifespan dwindling. Also a logical progression.

Death/corruption affects people's beings. It just does. That is why God had to redeem our entire being. Some day that body will be sown in corruption and raised in victory, because God's resurrection, life-giving power trumps death, all of it, period.

Death affects all of creation. Plants, animals ... you name it. Everything is touched by it. Nothing remained untouched. So all creation groans for redemption from its Maker.

That's my 2pence anyway.

As to who is born what way ... I had a connection to God as a child. I know I did. I then lost it due to ... I can't even remember how. Doesn't really matter, I guess. Glad He got me back though. Whew.

IMO, I think the missing piece of the puzzle is the tree of life. The tree of life is in midst of the paradise of God, man is now outside that paradise. Without access to the tree of life, man has no choice but to die.So it's not spiritual death that is in view here, it's physical death that is in view.

[awestruckchild]

IMO, I think the missing piece of the puzzle is the tree of life. The tree of life is in midst of the paradise of God, man is now outside that paradise. Without access to the tree of life, man has no choice but to die.So it's not spiritual death that is in view here, it's physical death that is in view.

Ah...
I have a relevant verse!
Maybe....
Let the dead bury their own dead.
The men doing the burying were alive, right?
So why did Jesus call them dead?
Love, love, love kickin around with you, Dani!

[John146]

To be dead in your sins means to be without Christ, right?
And if you are born spiritually dead, wouldn't that mean you were born dead in your sins?
Of course, I maybe shouldn't assume that you think like me that we are born spiritually dead.
Might only make sense to me

Please read my post again (#8) because I already addressed all of that in my post.

[John146]

Sorry but I see no such thing as "spiritually dead" anywhere in the Bible.

That's how some people refer to someone being dead in their sins. I don't consider it an appropriate way of referring to someone who is dead in their sins, though. That phrase gives the impression that the spirit of the person is dead, which is not the case. Being dead in sins means your sins are separating you from having a personal relationship with God and has nothing to do with one's spirit itself being dead in the same sense as we think of one's body being dead. Rather than calling unsaved sinners "spiritually dead" it's more appropriate to say they are dead in their sins and spiritually sick.

Mark 2:17 When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.