Are we born spiritually alive or dead?

[awestruckchild]

Okay. Went to bed at 8:30 last night so I could get up and do this. You have no idea how much that website is going to help me. I screamed around in it for about 10 minutes before I went to bed.
When you said "zombie apocalypse" I started laughing. Made me think of oscarkipling and his :"lypse" to save time which never saves him time because he always has to explain it.
I am hoping oscarkipling will be with us in here soon!
Okay, be back soon to let you know what I see.

[awestruckchild]

Oh good grief!
Three and a half hours later and here I am, no further along than Gen 1:7
I don't know how to do this without starting from the beginning.
I'm just going to put it in a blog I guess, and then keep plugging away until I come to the part Dani was talking about.
I'm not good at this

[granpa]

I know that this is a very debateable topic, and let's keep this civil. But, what do y'all think? I think we are born alive, and then die after God accounts/imputes sin unto us. I am throwing this in the ring, just to show what I believe. I am not baiting anyone, just want everyone's responses in a civil manner.

babies are still in the garden. they dont leave the garden till they sin.

[awestruckchild]

Okay, I posted it in a blog, Dani. I am not a good writer or arranger, but I did the best I could.
It might not seem to you that I had to do the beginning before getting to the three different lifes and what God breathed into Adam, but I think it is going to become relevant to just how awful what happened was after He gave Adam life. Now, I'll jump ahead as best I can, but at some point, we'll probably be backtracking for doing so. And wherever you want to jump in on that blog, you can right? You can post in someone elses blog, please say yes.

[Watchman]

Hi watchman,
I've been reading a lot of your posts!
To my understanding, the sin IS actually being apart from Christ.
I do see being as apart from Christ as being spiritually dead, just as you.
The question we are working on now is: are we BORN apart from Christ, hence spiritually dead, or, as Dani and others read it, are we born spiritually alive( i.e., connected to Christ) and then something, somehow, causes us to be NOT spiritually connected to Him.

It is a bit intriguing, because my mind sucks straight to certain verses, Dani's sucks straight to others, John's to others, and we are trying to...integrate them to agreement. So we are thinking that some word studies are in order. Are you in?

You betcha! I may not be around much until next week, because we're taking a few days off, but I'll catch up. Count me in.

W

[awestruckchild]

All right then! I took all this time to post the beginning in a blog and just figured out that you can't edit a blog so I don't like that and will post it here too. Then we will all just add to it what we see and find! I'll try to be patient until you return!

[awestruckchild]

Okay, here it is.

Okay, so I don't know how to do this other than to just begin. Here is what I have found and my sense of the meanings when I look up all of the Hebrew words. I used the KJV.

"In the beginning, God created the heaven and the earth."
earth 776 - A land, common,wilderness.


heaven 8064-to be lofty.

So the sense I get is that in the beginning, God created the lofty place and the wilderness. My first question is, why would God create this separation? It seems to me that heaven is simply: In Gods Presence; where God is.
So why would He make this separation/distinction. It seems that in the beginning, He made where He was and where He was not.

"And the earth was without form and void"

form 8414-To lie waste to;a desolation of surface;figuratively, a worthless thing; in vain; confusion, empty place, nothing, thing of nought, vain, vanity, waste.

void 922- To be empty; an undistinguishable ruin;void; ruin

So the sense I get is: and the earth was a desolate, worthless, ruin, and a place of confusion.

We always say how God creates perfectly and how He is not a God of confusion. So I cannot accept that He created such an awful place unless it was a negative creation. In other words, by creating a separation or distinction between where He was and where He was not, THIS is how He created such an awful sounding place. My guess is that satan had something to do with this, and as I went along further, this became more likely to me.

"and darkness was upon the face of the deep"

darkness 2822- from 2821, which means: To be dark (as witholding light). 2822-Figuratively, misery, destruction, death, ignorance, sorrow, wickedness.

deep 8415 - from 1949, which means: to make an uproar, or agitate greatly - destroy, make a noise.
8415-An abyss(as a surging mass of water.)

"And the spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters."

waters 4325-wasting, water, flood.

"And God said, let there be light."

light 216- from 215, which means to cause to make luminous, glorious, set on fire, give light, shine.

216-happiness, morning, sun.
My sense, however, is that it is not "sun" because the sun has not been created yet.

"And God saw the light, that it was good, and He separated the light from the darkness.

So, here is the sense and feeling I get from the definitions of the words:
In the beginning God created the lofty place and the wilderness. And the wilderness was a desolation, a worthless thing, confusion, an empty place, a waste, an undistinguishable ruin.
And it was dark, the light was withheld. Misery, death, ignorance, sorrow and wickedness was upon the face of the abyss of uproar and agitation. And the spirit of God moved upon the face of the wasting. And God said, let there be made luminous, glorious. Give light to this place. And God saw the light, that it was good, and He separated the glorious illumination from the misery and wickedness.

Genesis talks about separations. The first separation is in the first few words of the book.
Next, I will get into how this first separation is missing the words: and God saw that it was good, and which other separations also do not say, and God saw that it was good.

[awestruckchild]

So now, before I jump ahead to Adam, I have a question. Why, when you look up "let the dry land appear", does the concordance list it without the number? The first two entries for "dry", both in Genesis, do not list the number beside them....is there a reason?

[Dani H]

Okay, I posted it in a blog, Dani. I am not a good writer or arranger, but I did the best I could.
It might not seem to you that I had to do the beginning before getting to the three different lifes and what God breathed into Adam, but I think it is going to become relevant to just how awful what happened was after He gave Adam life. Now, I'll jump ahead as best I can, but at some point, we'll probably be backtracking for doing so. And wherever you want to jump in on that blog, you can right? You can post in someone elses blog, please say yes.

Yes you can comment on a person's blog.

I have to log into work here shortly but I want to take the time to read what you wrote and chew on it, so gimme some time, k?

And my personal understanding when it comes to the nature of salvation is "back to Genesis" so ... yep, works for me!

Have to look at the original blueprint to figure out what went wrong, and how. It's good to understand the pickle we're in to begin with, to begin to understand how to get out.

[awestruckchild]

So I have jumped ahead to Adam. It is a little bit strange that image and likeness seem to mean the same thing, though not that strange, because this happens a lot in the bible, a repetition in a sentence. But it is interesting that image comes from an unused root meaning to shade. Not sure if that's to shade, like in drawing or like the shade of a tree. But I suppose it could mean let us make man in our shade (covering? protection?) and after our resemblance....

There is no distinction or change in meaning between the animals and us as far as breathing, alive, a living thing, and when it says man became a living soul, soul is just: a breathing creature. No different words used between us and the animals. So that's something to note.

Might be helpful if someone who knows what they're doing wandered in here to help....

[Paccls]

IMO, I think the missing piece of the puzzle is the tree of life. The tree of life is in midst of the paradise of God, man is now outside that paradise. Without access to the tree of life, man has no choice but to die.So it's not spiritual death that is in view here, it's physical death that is in view.

Greetings divaD. I agree that physical death is in view. The Tree of Life granted Adam and Eve immortality, physically. On the day access to the Tree of Life was denied them, they became mortal. Thus on the day they sinned against God, their immortality came to an end, and it can truthfully said that they died in that day.

Jake

[divaD]

"And the earth was without form and void"

form 8414-To lie waste to;a desolation of surface;figuratively, a worthless thing; in vain; confusion, empty place, nothing, thing of nought, vain, vanity, waste.

void 922- To be empty; an undistinguishable ruin;void; ruin

So the sense I get is: and the earth was a desolate, worthless, ruin, and a place of confusion.

We always say how God creates perfectly and how He is not a God of confusion. So I cannot accept that He created such an awful place unless it was a negative creation. In other words, by creating a separation or distinction between where He was and where He was not, THIS is how He created such an awful sounding place. My guess is that satan had something to do with this, and as I went along further, this became more likely to me.

It could also mean that God had not yet starting forming it. Afterall the verse does say...And the earth was without form.

Psalms 95:5 The sea is his, and he made it: and his hands formed the dry land.


If you look back in Genesis it is not until the following verse we see the land appearing.

Genesis 1:9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.

This would be after we're told in Genesis 1:2 that the earth was at that point without form. Psalms 95:5 tells us that His hands formed the dry land.


Speaking of Psalms, Psalms 104 gives us another perspective of the days of creation. But unfortunately many misinterpret that chapter, thus failing to see the connections. As an example, in order to show the connections to the days of creation, notice the following.

Psalms 104:19 He appointed the moon for seasons: the sun knoweth his going down.

Genesis 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.

I would think these two great lights, the lesser light to rule the night, that is meaning the moon, and that that is being linked to verse 14 where we see...to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, which then agrees with Psalms 104:19 He appointed the moon for seasons.

[awestruckchild]

I can't believe I forgot to add this part:

"God called the light "day" and the darkness "night."

day 3117 - (Have to discard the definitions to do with the actual Sun because it has yet to be created) Age, always, lasting, forevermore.

night 3915- A twist away from the light - adversity.

So the sense you get is: and God called the light, everlasting, and He called the darkness, a twisting away from the light, adversity.

I guess I can cut and paste all the posts together at the end...

[awestruckchild]

It could also mean that God had not yet starting forming it. Afterall the verse does say...And the earth was without form.

Psalms 95:5 The sea is his, and he made it: and his hands formed the dry land.


If you look back in Genesis it is not until the following verse we see the land appearing.

Genesis 1:9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.

This would be after we're told in Genesis 1:2 that the earth was at that point without form. Psalms 95:5 tells us that His hands formed the dry land.


Speaking of Psalms, Psalms 104 gives us another perspective of the days of creation. But unfortunately many misinterpret that chapter, thus failing to see the connections. As an example, in order to show the connections to the days of creation, notice the following.

Psalms 104:19 He appointed the moon for seasons: the sun knoweth his going down.

Genesis 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.

I would think these two great lights, the lesser light to rule the night, that is meaning the moon, and that that is being linked to verse 14 where we see...to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, which then agrees with Psalms 104:19 He appointed the moon for seasons.

Hmmm...have you read my complete post yet? Because the definition in Hebrew for without form or formless, doesn't seem to indicate that.....hmmm.....I'll wait till you read the whole post.

[Raybob]

...There is no distinction or change in meaning between the animals and us as far as breathing, alive, a living thing, and when it says man became a living soul, soul is just: a breathing creature. No different words used between us and the animals. So that's something to note...

There's a big difference. Men and women have souls. Animals don't. Men's and women's souls will end up in the lake of fire if they aren't faithful to the Lord. Animals don't have that choice. They are born totally faithful, totally dependent on the Lord to provide their daily bread. Not so for mankind. Babies are born living in fear of the unknown, and need about God, and to be taught to be faithful to Him, unlike animals.