right on, right onOriginally Posted by Revmitchell
Veteran
right on, right on
Jesus is enough
Revelation is clearly notated as a vision.In the interest of having a discussion, let us dig deeper into Rev. 20:13, shall we?
Why is the sea here associated with death?
The story of Jonah is not. Peter walking on water is not. Jesus walking on water is not. The story of Daniel in the lion den is not.
Apples and studebakers. You are making parallels where there aren't any.
Even so, come Lord Jesus!
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Most here have agreed that even if the story of Jesus and Peter literally happened, there is still a symbolic dimension. Do you not see the the sea is often symbolic in the Bible?
Jesus is enough
Absolutely. I don't deny symbolic dimension. I also don't deny actual physical events for what they are.
By what authority do you pronounce something an allegory that the Bible does not?
Even so, come Lord Jesus!
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Hold up.
what is your beef with me connecting the symbolism of the sea in Revelation with the gospel story of Jesus walking on the water?
Jesus is enough
One is a vision, the other one is a physical event. They're not the same.
You do not believe Jesus actually physically walked on water.
You spiritualize and symbolize actual, physical events.
I ask you again, by what authority do you do this? That's my question.
Even so, come Lord Jesus!
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That doesn't answer my question. You agree that the sea Jesus walked on can be viewed symbolically. Why do you scoff at the idea that the symbolic meaning is the same in both texts?
As for why I do not believe Jesus walked on water...let me jsut say that I have no reason to believe it literally happened.
Jesus is enough
What proof do you have that it is the same meaning? The sea in Revelation is often understood to represent people. So how would you transfer that meaning over to Jesus walking on water? Jesus walks on people?
Why don't you have reason to believe that Jesus literally walked on water? What is your reason for not believing it?
Even so, come Lord Jesus!
I live here!
Matthew 14:22 And straightway Jesus constrained his disciples to get into a ship, and to go before him unto the other side, while he sent the multitudes away.
According to this account, this began this particular ordeal. The first question to ask, was this a literal ship? It all depends on whether one sees this account as historically factual or not. If one does, then logically this has to be a literal ship they get into. What does one usually do once inside of a literal ship? Don't they usually go out into the waters when they're in it?
Matthew 14:24 But the ship was now in the midst of the sea, tossed with waves: for the wind was contrary.
Speaking of waters, how does the midst of the sea and within a ship not fit with one another? So then, this sea must be literal as well. Is it unreasonable, that while out to sea, there could be waves because of gusts of wind? I wouldn't think so. That means we should take these waves and gusts of wind literal as well.
Matthew 14:25 And in the fourth watch of the night Jesus went unto them, walking on the sea.
26 And when the disciples saw him walking on the sea, they were troubled, saying, It is a spirit; and they cried out for fear
Can't blame them there. If I were out to sea like that, then I and others saw someone walking on the sea towards us, I'm guessing I would be thinking the same thing, it must be a spirit, an apperition, a ghost.
The first thing to keep in mind here, verse 26 indicates, not just one saw someone walking on the water, all of them did, and that they all cried out with fear.
Matthew 14:27 But straightway Jesus spake unto them, saying, Be of good cheer; it is I; be not afraid.
Now we know it wasn't a spirit at least. But notice Peter's reaction in the next verse.
28 And Peter answered him and said, Lord, if it be thou, bid me come unto thee on the water.
This shows Peter wasn't exactly certain it was Jesus as of yet.
29 And he said, Come. And when Peter was come down out of the ship, he walked on the water, to go to Jesus.
This shows Peter obviously finally concluded it really was Jesus, otherwise why would he try to walk out on the sea as well? This verse clearly says...he walked on the water, to go to Jesus. Even if it were only a few steps, since I would think it would have to be, the fact that Jesus would have to be very close to the ship now, Peter still literally walked on the water. To conclude otherwise is like saying nothing in the gospels should be understood as historically factual. It doesn't matter what the sea symbolizes elsewhere in Scriptures, because sometimes it means exactly what it states. And in this case absolutely no reason to symbolize what is clearly a literal sea in Matthew 14.
נתהלך באור
Being from Canada, I have walked on water many times....in the winter of course.
So yes Peter actually walked on water...and in it's liquid state. All things are possible with Christ.
Formerly "Adullam" from other sites!
Striving to apprehend that for which I have been apprehended in Christ Jesus.
Walk in the Light! (התהלכו באור)
Captain Obvious
Do you believe that Jesus is God?
The Rookie
Twelve is the number of government. Thus, it is quite apropos that I am on my way towards wielding the power of twelve bars - each bar like, say, a tribe.....or a star.....or, maybe an apostle. A blue apostle. Like apostle smurfs. Does anyone remember smurfs? And all the controversy about them being from the devil? It's probably bad that I juxtaposed "apostle" and "smurf" in the same sentence. But then, I probably lost you at "blue apostle". Yes, my friends, this is what "rare jewel of a person" is actually implying. "Rare Jewel of a Person" really means, "Potentially Insane".
New and Improved
First:
if Peter did not walk on the water, neither did Jesus. And while certainly there is a spiritual lesson to be garnered here, I'd like to see a shred of evidence that this was intended to be some allegory or metaphor.
Second:
The Jews demanded to see a miracle as Jesus' divine credentials. Jesus used the final and ultimate miraculous event in His dealings with them, as the seminal and central event that would tell the truth about Him: His resurrection. And He compared that impending event to the Jonah's experience:
Mat 12:39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
Mat 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
It is ludicrous to suggest that Jesus was predicating the reality of His resurrection from the dead--upon which the entire Christian faith stands or falls--on a mere "myth." Some people seem to see symbolism in nearly every verse of the Bible.
When we stand before the Judgment Seat, we will have retained only two things from our earthly life: what God gave us, and what we did with what He gave us.
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The sea in Revelation represents people? So Revelation 15:2 is talking about the saints standing on top of people? Nay, the image here is the same as that in the gospel account of Jesus walking on water; the resurrected saints stand on the sea just as Jesus did, for in Him they have power over death (the sea).
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Yes sir, I do believe Jesus is God.
Posting Freak
I know some have mentioned the comparison to Jesus the Messiah to that of Jonah in the belly of the fish for three days and three night, but have you every wonder why three days and nights? Just maybe it's a sign of resurrection. Jonah have been in the belly of the fish for this 'three' duration. He would have been assumed dead until the fish throw him up on the land. In that sence Jonah was onces dead and had been resurrected back to life again.
I believe all students of the word can see this spiritual truth of 'three' with in scripture, but there is yet even more spiritual truths found in this story of Jonah and that of Jesus. Even in the passages about Moses on the mountain where God was to visit. God required the congregation to separate themselves 'consecration' to make ready and to clean their garments before they could come before the mount.
Thus Jonah and Jesus having the three days and three nights is an requirement of becoming consecrated and purification. These three days having Jesus making ready before he could enter the Holy of Hoiles before the throne room of God.
Hints Jonah and Jesus three days are not only a sign of resurrection, but also of purification. This is where water and baptism comes into view. Water as most often other symbols have more that one side. a) Water at times symbolism death as in water baptism when you go under the water this is symbolic of death. b) Water at times symbolism life as in the case also with water baptism when you come out of the water in a rebrith. c)Water is symbolic of cleanings and purifications. d) Water is also spoken of as the Holy Spirit. e) Water can be a symbol for a flood of deception.
Just food for thought.
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