Proof that the entire future is NOT fixed

[LookingUp]

It would seem the key foundational question to answer before any of this is... Is time created or uncreated?

I think it's quite an easy answer, since God alone is uncreated.

No one has yet given me a logical explanation as to why the future can be known as indefinite for God (as seen with the Hezekiah incident) and yet God knows the entire future as fixed. This is contrary and people act like it's not.

[LookingUp]

It would seem the key foundational question to answer before any of this is... Is time created or uncreated?

I think it's quite an easy answer, since God alone is uncreated.

Did God create existence?

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

Did God create existence?

He Himself is self-existent. All other existence external to Him... Yes. There is only created and uncreated unless someone has a middle ground.

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

No one has yet given me a logical explanation as to why the future can be known as indefinite for God (as seen with the Hezekiah incident) and yet God knows the entire future as fixed. This is contrary and people act like it's not.

Is it not contrary to presume time is eternally pre-existent and uncreated?

So... the sovereign collective will of mankind determines the inherently indefinite future? I just can't go there.

No criticism from me for those searching this out. My lone contention is that God alone is uncreated; and thus, time is created.

Is time uncreated?

[LookingUp]

He Himself is self-existent. All other existence external to Him... Yes. There is only created and uncreated unless someone has a middle ground.

So, you affirm God did not create existence?

If one says God created existence, then you have to say that prior to the point when God created existence, God didn't exist. Of course, that would be nonsense. There is no such entity as "existence"--speaking of "existence" of God is simply the only way we describe that "God is."

Neither is there such an entity as "time." There's not a shred of biblical evidence for such a notion. It's not some kind of force like gravity, and thus God did not create it. If time is created and the future exists "out there" somewhere, it isn't really the future, now is it? And if it exists, who put it there? The answer can only be: God.

[divaD]

Is time uncreated?

I've been thinking about this time issue. If time is a property of God's existence, then that means an infinite amount of time has passed until we get to the beginning in Genesis 1. What's wrong with this picture? An infinite amount of time passing. It then seems like it would be impossible to get to the beginning in Genesis 1. How can an infinite amount of time pass, and then there's this beginning somewhere along the line? The point is, this infinite amount of time could never pass to begin with, in order to cross over into this beginning in Genesis 1. This infinite amount of time would still be ongoing, and would be ongoing forever. Then on top of that, there would be no beginning involved with this infinite amount of time. So my conclusion now would be, God has to be outside of time, and time can't be a part of God, nor a property of His existence. Ironically then, I'm right back where I started from, since this is what I've always initially believed, that God is outside of time. Admittedly tho, I was entertaining some alternatives, this was until I came back to earth, so to speak. I'm just happy we're allowed to think these things thru via a board like this, and that there are others here to help us think thru it.

[Nihil Obstat]

You're awesome, divaD!

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

So, you affirm God did not create existence?

No. God is self-existent. He IS existence. Existence came from Him at the Divine Utterance of the Logos. Nothing would exist without Him, but everything exists external to Him.

If one says God created existence, then you have to say that prior to the point when God created existence, God didn't exist. Of course, that would be nonsense. There is no such entity as "existence"--speaking of "existence" of God is simply the only way we describe that "God is."

Neither is there such an entity as "time." There's not a shred of biblical evidence for such a notion. It's not some kind of force like gravity, and thus God did not create it. If time is created and the future exists "out there" somewhere, it isn't really the future, now is it? And if it exists, who put it there? The answer can only be: God.

I didn't really come to argue. I just gave my understanding that time is created. Time began at its inception, which was the Divine Utterance. Of all the people on the planet, I thought you'd be one of the few that saw that.

Define... Time.

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

I've been thinking about this time issue. If time is a property of God's existence, then that means an infinite amount of time has passed until we get to the beginning in Genesis 1. What's wrong with this picture? An infinite amount of time passing. It then seems like it would be impossible to get to the beginning in Genesis 1. How can an infinite amount of time pass, and then there's this beginning somewhere along the line? The point is, this infinite amount of time could never pass to begin with, in order to cross over into this beginning in Genesis 1. This infinite amount of time would still be ongoing, and would be ongoing forever. Then on top of that, there would be no beginning involved with this infinite amount of time. So my conclusion now would be, God has to be outside of time, and time can't be a part of God, nor a property of His existence. Ironically then, I'm right back where I started from, since this is what I've always initially believed, that God is outside of time. Admittedly tho, I was entertaining some alternatives, this was until I came back to earth, so to speak. I'm just happy we're allowed to think these things thru via a board like this, and that there are others here to help us think thru it.

Easy Capeezy. :-)

[Nihil Obstat]

Define... Time.

One moment progressing to the next moment. What could God do / think / feel before time was created, according to this simple definition? Time must always have been, because God has always been living and active. Time could not have been created, or else God was completely inactive / non-existent during such a "time".

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

One moment progressing to the next moment. What could God do / think / feel before time was created, according to this simple definition? Time must always have been, because God has always been living and active. Time could not have been created, or else God was dead / non-existent during such a "time".

I certainly don't concur with that definition or the resulting inference. Time is created and had a beginning. Everything is external to God and created.

No big deal, though. Since when have many at BF agreed with me about much? LOL.

[LookingUp]

I've been thinking about this time issue. If time is a property of God's existence, then that means an infinite amount of time has passed until we get to the beginning in Genesis 1. What's wrong with this picture? An infinite amount of time passing. It then seems like it would be impossible to get to the beginning in Genesis 1. How can an infinite amount of time pass, and then there's this beginning somewhere along the line? The point is, this infinite amount of time could never pass to begin with, in order to cross over into this beginning in Genesis 1. This infinite amount of time would still be ongoing, and would be ongoing forever. Then on top of that, there would be no beginning involved with this infinite amount of time. So my conclusion now would be, God has to be outside of time, and time can't be a part of God, nor a property of His existence. Ironically then, I'm right back where I started from, since this is what I've always initially believed, that God is outside of time. Admittedly tho, I was entertaining some alternatives, this was until I came back to earth, so to speak. I'm just happy we're allowed to think these things thru via a board like this, and that there are others here to help us think thru it.

I don't know. Sounds like you're still equating time with an entity of some sort. Is distance an entity? If you have two things existing, you have distance. Is time an entity? If you have anything existing (i.e. God), you have time.

[LookingUp]

No one has yet given me a logical explanation as to why the future can be known as indefinite for God (as seen with the Hezekiah incident) and yet God knows the entire future as fixed. This is contrary and people act like it's not.

Anyone want to answer this?

[Nihil Obstat]

I certainly don't concur with that definition or the resulting inference.

How then do you define "time"?

[Nihil Obstat]

Anyone want to answer this?

No one can answer it: it's a great question. I personally think God moves along through time with us. He's not existing in the past with the late Abraham (that time has come and is gone, and cannot be altered), nor is He existing in the future with my as-of-yet non-existent great-grandchildren (because that time has not yet come, or rather, not yet become a possibility). And the way we speak reveals that we all think this way: no one says, "God is with me yesterday." That makes no sense. God was with you yesterday, He is with you now, and by His grace He will be with you tomorrow.