Proof that the entire future is NOT fixed

[Redeemed by Grace]

This has a contrived premise by equating God's own transcendent existence with created temporal existence. God's existence is ontologically inherent. He is I AM.

Time measures existence. God cannot be measured and existence for God is transcendent to all else. In transcendence, there is nothing but God. He's not in a time or times, or a place or places.

Ya know PPS, I don't think I've ever stated this about your writings, but 'well stated', for I usually get lost in your $5 words, but this post I somehow understand your POV.

[Redeemed by Grace]

Okay. You realize that's been my position all along, right?

No, but I do know... thus we agree...

[Yahweh1]

God knows already all that will ever happen, if He did not, could not be God!

And you have to realise that when the bible states God repented/changed his mind, its from human perspective, describing God in human terms!

Cross of Christ best example of that, as He had determined that the Son would come as Messiah to die to atone for sins of His people, but God also used desires and plans of wicked men to get that accomplished!

[Redeemed by Grace]

I pretty much agree with this.

1. What God said to Hezekiah was what the future would have been had Hezekiah not prayed..
2.God's Grace and Hezekiah's prayer of faith changed that.
3.God knew beforehand what Hezekiah that Hezekieh would pray, even though he had the freedom not to pray and to die.

Put another way,

1. Faith and prayer changes things in the realm of time.
2. Yet it does not change God's foreknowledge of events.
3. God's foreknowledge does not rule out human freedom, ( but of course, humans do not have "absolute" freedom)

You do realize that this is your doctrine speaking.

Maybe you don't realize this, but you have used the same figure of speech that God uses through Issiah.

How many time have you told your children that because your toys aren't picked up that they were not going for ice cream, and you knew that they would pick up their toys once you motivated them in saying that.

Thus you are going for ice cream, you told them they can't go because of their lack of behavior, but knowing that they will respond to your statement, they pick up their toys and you go for ice cream, all along.

Faith and prayer does not change the realm of time, faith and prayer are relationship before God. If one prays according to the will of God, every pray within God's will you prayed for is fulfilled.

[Redeemed by Grace]

God knows already all that will ever happen, if He did not, could not be God!

And you have to realise that when the bible states God repented/changed his mind, its from human perspective, describing God in human terms!

Cross of Christ best example of that, as He had determined that the Son would come as Messiah to die to atone for sins of His people, but God also used desires and plans of wicked men to get that accomplished!

I'd say you and I would sing out of the same Hymn book on this subject.

[Brother Mark]

God knows already all that will ever happen, if He did not, could not be God!

This is a philosophical argument and the conclusion is wrong. Jesus is God and he does not know the day of his return.

Matt 24:36-37

36 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.
NASU

So if your statement stands, then Jesus cannot be God because he himself said there was something in the future that he did not know. Having said that, I personally believe that God the Father knows the entire future of how things will play out.

And you have to realise that when the bible states God repented/changed his mind, its from human perspective, describing God in human terms!

Philosophy, IMO. Scriptures state repeatedly why God would repent, change his mind, etc. But that doesn't mean he didn't know the future. If scriptures state God changes his mind, shouldn't we believe it? What truth would it be trying to state otherwise? We also know from scripture that God doesn't change his mind like a man does. No doubt about that. Man changes his mind for different reasons that the Father does.

...He had determined that the Son would come as Messiah to die to atone for sins of His people, but God also used desires and plans of wicked men to get that accomplished!

Agreed!

[LookingUp]

Just because time is uncreated doesn't mean it's a god. Hasn't God always had emotions? thoughts? Were emotions created?

Exactly. If time is uncreated, why would that mean TIME = GOD?

[LookingUp]

...But if time is not fixed and is un-created, then at any given moment in God's existence He could have spoken, "Let there be light."

Makes sense. Thank you.

[LookingUp]

As with doctrine, I don't define; insted preferring to work with existing definitions based on language or etymology resources. Since this time topic isn't an issue for me, I've never had to have a working definition. But dictionary.com says 1. The length of existence, past, present, and future.

Since I contend that time is created and the beginning was at the Divine Utterance, this is an acceptable definition, I suppose...

Whether God is self-existent or not, He exists. You say the definition of time is the length of existence, past, present, and future. God existed in the past, He exists in the present, and He will exist in the future. “I am the Alpha and the Omega” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty” (Rev. 1:8).

[John146]

Where does this say God created time? Time has always existed and this explains how to measure it.

Yeah, but notice that it's measured with things that were created (light, the sun, the moon, the stars) so how could it be measured before that if it existed before that? There was no such thing as light and darkness until God created that so without light and darkness to separate the light/daytime and the darkness/nighttime (together which make one measurable day), how could time be measured?

[Redeemed by Grace]

This is a philosophical argument and the conclusion is wrong. Jesus is God and he does not know the day of his return.

Matt 24:36-37

36 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.
NASU

So if your statement stands, then Jesus cannot be God because he himself said there was something in the future that he did not know. Having said that, I personally believe that God the Father knows the entire future of how things will play out.

Mark, Mark, Mark... Why go through all that effort to then come back to full circle...

And why do you say Jesus can't be God because for the hour of His return is not known by Him....? Of all That Jesus has declared and all that He is, would one comment written exclude Him from being the Son of God? I know you better than to think that.

[LookingUp]

Mark, Mark, Mark... Why go through all that effort to then come back to full circle...

And why do you say Jesus can't be God because for the hour of His return is not known by Him....? Of all That Jesus has declared and all that He is, would one comment written exclude Him from being the Son of God? I know you better than to think that.

I think Mark did a wonderful job of staying true to Scripture without making up some kind of rhetoric to explain it.

[Nihil Obstat]

Yeah, but notice that it's measured with things that were created (light, the sun, the moon, the stars) so how could it be measured before that if it existed before that? There was no such thing as light and darkness until God created that so without light and darkness to separate the light/daytime and the darkness/nighttime (together which make one measurable day), how could time be measured?

What happened to time when the sun was moved back in Isa. 38.8? Nothing happened to time; it went right on rolling. The day lengthened, and yet time was not halted or repeated. This is because time exists apart from some standardized way of measuring time. That there are several different ways to measure time evidences this fact. Time doesn't need the circling sun, the half-life of carbon, a ticking clock, or a browning apple to exist. Suppose a human being was jettisoned into space beyond our galaxy, where the light of our sun does not reach: is that astronaut then outside of time?

[LookingUp]

Yeah, but notice that it's measured with things that were created (light, the sun, the moon, the stars) so how could it be measured before that if it existed before that? There was no such thing as light and darkness until God created that so without light and darkness to separate the light/daytime and the darkness/nighttime (together which make one measurable day), how could time be measured?

How did God measure time the first three days before He created the sun?

God can't measure something without created tools? Something God can't do?

[Brother Mark]

Exactly. If time is uncreated, why would that mean TIME = GOD?

What do you make of the scripture "in the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth". To me, that would suggest that is the beginning of time, heaven, etc.