Proof that the entire future is NOT fixed

[Brother Mark]

Mark, Mark, Mark... Why go through all that effort to then come back to full circle...

Because it was in response to a philosophy that "If God doesn't know the future then he's not God". That statement contradicted scripture so it was not true.

And why do you say Jesus can't be God because for the hour of His return is not known by Him....? Of all That Jesus has declared and all that He is, would one comment written exclude Him from being the Son of God? I know you better than to think that.

I didn't say that. What I said was in response to the person who said that if God didn't know the future, he couldn't be God. But we have scripture that says Jesus doesn't know something about the future but it also states he is God. Therefore, knowing the future is NOT a necessity to be God as illustrated with Jesus.

So I am not saying Jesus isn't God. I am saying He is God and that the philosophical statement "if God doesn't know the future then he's not God" is not a valid argument.

[Brother Mark]

You do realize that this is your doctrine speaking.

You really want to go there?

[glad4mercy]

You do realize that this is your doctrine speaking

What part of what I am saying is "my doctrine", and not Biblical?

Maybe you don't realize this, but you have used the same figure of speech that God uses through Issiah.

I dont suppose that is a bad thing. Which passage are you referring to?

How many time have you told your children that because your toys aren't picked up that they were not going for ice cream, and you knew that they would pick up their toys once you motivated them in saying that

An imperfect, but a good enough analogy to describe what I said.

Thus you are going for ice cream, you told them they can't go because of their lack of behavior, but knowing that they will respond to your statement, they pick up their toys and you go for ice cream, all along

Are you trying to agree or disagree with me, because this analogy, (though imperfect as any analogy would be), is pretty much agreeing with what I stated. That is that God told Hezekiah that he would die, in order to move him to pray, already knowing he was going to pray, and receive what God had already purposed to give him.

I did not say that prayer changes the realm of time, I said faith changes things in the realm of time. Do you deny this?

[John146]

What happened to time when the sun was moved back in Isa. 38.8? Nothing happened to time; it went right on rolling. The day lengthened, and yet time was not halted or repeated. This is because time exists apart from some standardized way of measuring time. That there are several different ways to measure time evidences this fact. Time doesn't need the circling sun, the half-life of carbon, a ticking clock, or a browning apple to exist. Suppose a human being was jettisoned into space beyond our galaxy, where the light of our sun does not reach: is that astronaut then outside of time?

I'm only speaking of measurable time as we know it. Is there some way to measure time apart from day and night (light and darkness, morning and evening)?

[LookingUp]

What do you make of the scripture "in the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth". To me, that would suggest that is the beginning of time, heaven, etc.

It's the beginning of the ages, the existence of creation as we know it.

[John146]

How did God measure time the first three days before He created the sun?

By the light and darkness He created.

Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 2And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. 3And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. 4And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. 5And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

The first day was measured by things God created, was it not? That's my point. So, I'm asking how it would have been measured before there was light and darkness. I'm not even saying that wasn't possible, but right now I'm not seeing how it could have been measured without light and darkness.

God can't measure something without created tools? Something God can't do?

I don't know if He can or not. When confronted with this question people sometimes ask the ridiculous question: Can God create a rock He can't lift? Of course not. Why? Not because He is not all-powerful, but because it's not reasonably possible for Him to do that. So, it might not even be reasonable for time to be measured without created tools, either. I'm not certain of that, but I lean towards thinking that way. To me God is timeless and His existence is timelessness. He exists outside of time and also interacts within the realm of time and space that He created. As I told you before I believe "In the beginning" means "in the beginning of time". If God experiences time and time is part of His existence then it seems to me that time could affect Him, but I don't believe it does.

[Pointy]

So, it might not even be reasonable for time to be measured without created tools, either. I'm not certain of that, but I lean towards thinking that way. To me God is timeless and His existence is timelessness. He exists outside of time and also interacts within the realm of time and space that He created.

I know this isn't exactly a popular view of things with some but I've never taken time measurements to be what they seem at face value. His units of time are completely independent from ours anyway "With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day" 2 Peter 3:8.

With that in mind having tools to measure an Earth day (when discussing actions God is taking) seems irrelevant, because the unit of time in Genesis could be referring to something completely independent of what we consider a "day". We're talking about the God who created the whole universe (with all the planets having their own definition of "day") and it's impossible a single one of them would match the description of having a day exactly equal to God's day as implied in 2 Peter (considering they can't both rotate 1000 faster than our planet AND 1000 times slower). A unit of time is used for our benefit to represent a cycle, but I've never put much more weight into it than that.

It's not so much that I don't trust it as a literal description of what happened as it is that I don't trust our definition of the word "day" in that context. Similar to how other verses have been taken entirely out of context due to the double meaning a word in our language has.

[Redeemed by Grace]

Because it was in response to a philosophy that "If God doesn't know the future then he's not God". That statement contradicted scripture so it was not true.



I didn't say that. What I said was in response to the person who said that if God didn't know the future, he couldn't be God. But we have scripture that says Jesus doesn't know something about the future but it also states he is God. Therefore, knowing the future is NOT a necessity to be God as illustrated with Jesus.

So I am not saying Jesus isn't God. I am saying He is God and that the philosophical statement "if God doesn't know the future then he's not God" is not a valid argument.

Thanks for clarifying.. But for the record to the thread, God does know the future.... And would submit it's more than know, would say His will directs it.

[Redeemed by Grace]

You really want to go there?

I not stereotyping my brother, just individualizing, so notice no labels? LOL...

[John146]

I know this isn't exactly a popular view of things with some but I've never taken time measurements to be what they seem at face value. His units of time are completely independent from ours anyway "With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day" 2 Peter 3:8.

What that verse tells me is that time has no affect on Him at all. How else could a thousand years be no different than a day to Him? It seems to me that He exists in a realm of timelessness outside the created realm of space and time. I'm open to changing my view on this but that's how I see it at this point.

With that in mind having tools to measure an Earth day (when discussing actions God is taking) seems irrelevant, because the unit of time in Genesis could be referring to something completely independent of what we consider a "day". We're talking about the God who created the whole universe (with all the planets having their own definition of "day") and it's impossible a single one of them would match the description of having a day exactly equal to God's day as implied in 2 Peter (considering they can't both rotate 1000 faster than our planet AND 1000 times slower). A unit of time is used for our benefit to represent a cycle, but I've never put much more weight into it than that.

It's not so much that I don't trust it as a literal description of what happened as it is that I don't trust our definition of the word "day" in that context. Similar to how other verses have been taken entirely out of context due to the double meaning a word in our language has.

I'm not interested in discussing the definition of the word "day" as it is used there. That's beside the point. The point is that the day was measured by the existince of light and darkness and them being separated into day and night or morning and evening. Light and darkness were created. So, if time could be measured before light and darkness were created then I'd like to know how exactly that could be the case.

[Yahweh1]

In the beginning, God already was!

He is Eternal, since we are finite, have to believe what the Bible states regarding God

He existed before ANYTHING else did, before he created heaven/angels/Universe/Time etc

Was just the truine God!

[divaD]

Light and darkness were created. So, if time could be measured before light and darkness were created then I'd like to know how exactly that could be the case.

Where in Genesis 1 does it ever say darkness is created? Maybe it's just me, but it seems like darkness has been there the whole time, and that God adds light to this darkness, then separates the darkness from the light. If you'll notice, it was the light that God saw as good, and not the darkness. That seems to tell me that darkness would already be present, and that in the midst of this darkness, God then fills it was a lit up universe. I'm just speculating of course, but still, I don't see where it's inferred that God created any darkness in Genesis 1.

Genesis 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

Notice that until there was light, there was only darkness. Then notice what happens after God said, Let there be light. and God divided the light from the darkness. And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day. IOW, there could be no such thing as an evening and morning with only darkness. Add light to that darkness tho, then divide the two, then that seems like a whole other story.

[Ceegen]

It isn't exactly that the future is fixed, but God knows what will happen in the future. If God is omnipresent, then He exists in every timeline or alternate reality at the same time, every time. He knows what will happen based on our own free will choices. If the future were "fixed" to the extent that we had no choice, then we couldn't technically love or hate God.

[Yahweh1]

Ggod is fully sovereign, so he can know the Future fully, and he can either cause it to happen directly, or allow others to do as they will, but always under His controll!

God ALONE has "real" free will, as all others things were created by Him for his good pleasure!

So we can freely chose to do as we will, but even that is under the permitting by God, who can freely chose to intervene as he sees fit!

[LookingUp]

By the light and darkness He created.

Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 2And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. 3And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. 4And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. 5And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

The first day was measured by things God created, was it not? That's my point. So, I'm asking how it would have been measured before there was light and darkness. I'm not even saying that wasn't possible, but right now I'm not seeing how it could have been measured without light and darkness.

I don't know if He can or not. When confronted with this question people sometimes ask the ridiculous question: Can God create a rock He can't lift? Of course not. Why? Not because He is not all-powerful, but because it's not reasonably possible for Him to do that. So, it might not even be reasonable for time to be measured without created tools, either. I'm not certain of that, but I lean towards thinking that way.

Reasonable enough. I'm not sure if it's illogical to say God can measure time without created tools. I just figure He can achieve that in His mind. We wouldn't be able to imagine how to measure time without God's help.

To me God is timeless and His existence is timelessness.

Well, I agree His existence can't be measured. He has no beginning. I would think God could only measure periods of time throughout His existence (if He wanted to).

He exists outside of time and also interacts within the realm of time and space that He created.

Many hold to that belief. If I were certain that time's created, I think I'd also hold to that belief.

As I told you before I believe "In the beginning" means "in the beginning of time".

Many believe that. However, there's nothing in the text that suggests that.

If God experiences time and time is part of His existence then it seems to me that time could affect Him, but I don't believe it does.

Hmmm... affect Him. Can the past affect Him? God can't go back and change the past for you. Do you think God feels limited by that reality?