cure-real
Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 38

Thread: Do You Hold to God being As stated By Open Theists then?

  1. #1

    Do You Hold to God being As stated By Open Theists then?

    That God is "limited", and is evolving along with His own creation through time?

  2. #2

    Re: Do You Hold to God being As stated By Open Theists then?

    Neither of those words ('limited' or 'evolving') are accurate representations of the 'open theist' concept.

  3. #3

    Re: Do You Hold to God being As stated By Open Theists then?

    My understand of their viewpoint as regarding God is that he is self evolving"learning" through the process of creation, that God has limited Himself to being in some way part of time as rest of His creation...

    he knows all that can be known at any given point in time, but has not "fixed/predetermined" future history, as he is aware of it same way we are, and reacts to the new awareness/knowledge that He gains!

  4. #4
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Kansas City, MO
    Posts
    3,252

    Re: Do You Hold to God being As stated By Open Theists then?

    I'm not an open theist, and I do not agree with the ideas they present - but no, I would not think that this is an accurate perception of what they are saying.

    The openness of the future knit to the sovereign foreknowledge of God speaks to His ability to know all that is and has been, as well as a complete and comprehensive understanding of the near-infinite possibilites and permutations of human free will. He therefore knows all of the possibilities and, with His understanding of His creation, also knows the most likely probabilities as it relates to what we will choose. However, the future is not predetermined and neither are our choices.

    Open theism is a philosophical framework for understanding the universe, particularly related to theodicy - or the problem of evil in relationship to an infinitely loving God. I think that "learning and evolving" would be a bit crude related to what Pinnock, Boyd, and others have laid out. I think that the idea that God responds to our choices is different than the idea that God "reacts to new awareness".

    Again, I do not agree with their viewpoint - I think that it reduces God to an infinitely skilled chess-player, while attempting to solve a mystery in God's transcendance that is beyond human capacity to grasp. However, I would be careful about broad-brushing it or reducing it to something that they aren't saying.
    The Rookie

    Twelve is the number of government. Thus, it is quite apropos that I am on my way towards wielding the power of twelve bars - each bar like, say, a tribe.....or a star.....or, maybe an apostle. A blue apostle. Like apostle smurfs. Does anyone remember smurfs? And all the controversy about them being from the devil? It's probably bad that I juxtaposed "apostle" and "smurf" in the same sentence. But then, I probably lost you at "blue apostle". Yes, my friends, this is what "rare jewel of a person" is actually implying. "Rare Jewel of a Person" really means, "Potentially Insane".

  5. #5

    Re: Do You Hold to God being As stated By Open Theists then?

    I think that it reduces God to an infinitely skilled chess-player,
    I think even this is a bit inaccurate in trying to describe it. Even with the 'infinitely skilled' part, it implies that there's the possibility that someone (e.g. the satan) could simply outwit God. Whether 'open' or 'closed theist' (excluding Calvinists), if one is described as making God a 'chess player', it goes for the other as well. The point is that both positions state that God predetermines overarching points in his redemptive plan (e.g. that he will choose man who would be the father of a people, that those people would enter into a Covenant with him, that from those people would come his chosen King, etc.) while allowing freedom for the individuals. The only difference is that 'open' sees God as not knowing the future outside of the plan he has predetermined (since the future has not happened yet), while 'closed' sees God as knowing the future outside his plan, but he in no way causes it to happen.

    If God is an 'infinitely skilled chess player' in the open position, then he is just as much so in the closed. As an example: God looking to the future and knowing exactly what he needs to do in order to bring Judas into the position where he would invariably decide to betray Jesus without actually forcing Judas to do the betraying. Judas had a choice, but God 'played chess' just right so that Judas would act in accordance with God's redemptive plan, i.e. that Jesus had to die as the once-for-all sacrifice for sin.

    A point in favor of open theism is that God's actions and reactions to individuals no longer seem so arbitrary. (Example: Why would God actually set out to kill Moses in Exodus 4.24, if Moses was his appointed leader of Israel and God knew he wouldn't actually kill Moses? It becomes an idle threat since God knew it wouldn't happen, and hence arbitrary.)

    In any case, I also see valid criticisms for open theism, so I'm not coming to defend it. Just pointing out valid points for and against either side.

    while attempting to solve a mystery in God's transcendance that is beyond human capacity to grasp
    I think this is an apt criticism for all sides; open theist, Arminian, Calvinist, etc.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Kansas City, MO
    Posts
    3,252

    Re: Do You Hold to God being As stated By Open Theists then?

    Great point - I totally agree

    In other words, I "broad-brushed" something I was trying to say "be careful about broad brushing"
    The Rookie

    Twelve is the number of government. Thus, it is quite apropos that I am on my way towards wielding the power of twelve bars - each bar like, say, a tribe.....or a star.....or, maybe an apostle. A blue apostle. Like apostle smurfs. Does anyone remember smurfs? And all the controversy about them being from the devil? It's probably bad that I juxtaposed "apostle" and "smurf" in the same sentence. But then, I probably lost you at "blue apostle". Yes, my friends, this is what "rare jewel of a person" is actually implying. "Rare Jewel of a Person" really means, "Potentially Insane".

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Outside of the box. Where else?
    Posts
    9,626

    Re: Do You Hold to God being As stated By Open Theists then?

    Quote Originally Posted by the rookie View Post
    The openness of the future knit to the sovereign foreknowledge of God speaks to His ability to know all that is and has been, as well as a complete and comprehensive understanding of the near-infinite possibilites and permutations of human free will. He therefore knows all of the possibilities and, with His understanding of His creation, also knows the most likely probabilities as it relates to what we will choose. However, the future is not predetermined and neither are our choices.
    Speaking for myself, I couldn't be an open theist then, since I wouldn't reason it like this. At least I don't think I do. At the same time tho, I don't exactly reason it like the majority either. So not sure what category I would fall under. As far as these labels, open theism, etc, personally I have never heard of any of them until just recently thru this board, via posts in various threads. I don't keep track of all these labels. I try to come to my conclusions solely from the Bible. And if any of my conclusions happen to fall within any of these labels, then it would be purely coincidental, and not that I was familiar with the labels and what they mean first.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    933
    Blog Entries
    4

    Re: Do You Hold to God being As stated By Open Theists then?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yahweh1 View Post
    That God is "limited", and is evolving along with His own creation through time?
    No. I don't believe God is 'limited'. And I don't believe God needs to 'evolve'. As He is already perfect. And I believe He has always been perfect.

    For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed. (Malachi 3:6)

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Outside of the box. Where else?
    Posts
    9,626

    Re: Do You Hold to God being As stated By Open Theists then?

    Quote Originally Posted by nzyr View Post
    And I don't believe God needs to 'evolve'.
    What exactly does this mean? Can you give an example or two, in order to illustrate this? I just want to make sure I've never come to that conclusion, since I don't see how an evolving God fits with the God of the Bible.

  10. #10

    Re: Do You Hold to God being As stated By Open Theists then?

    Again i could be wrong in this, but it appears that Open theism postulates that God has self limited Himself to NOT know all things, as he has decided to grow along with us, as he has chosen to not be able to see future events in foreknowledge, but sees it in time as we see it , as it actually happens!

    So God knows perfectly what has happened right now, all that happend up to n ow, but is learning as He goes!

    he does NOT know who is saved until that actually happens!

  11. #11

    Re: Do You Hold to God being As stated By Open Theists then?

    Again i could be wrong in this, but it appears that Open theism postulates that God has self limited Himself to NOT know all things
    This is indeed incorrect. Open theism works under the concept that the future does not exist, and hence it cannot be known. In analogy, knowing the future is like knowing a square circle. A square circle does not exist, and as such no one can claim to know it.

    It isn't that God 'limited' himself in any way. Rather, God does know all that there is to know (he knows all that has happened, he knows all that does happen)... it's simply that the future does not exist and hence cannot be known.

    Open theism freely states that God predetermines certain things for the future as a part of his redemptive plan, and so causes those things to take place as he predetermined them (being almighty, God's plan cannot be subverted), but that is not the same thing as knowing the future.

    as he has decided to grow along with us
    Open theism does not claim that God 'grows along with us'.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Outside of the box. Where else?
    Posts
    9,626

    Re: Do You Hold to God being As stated By Open Theists then?

    Quote Originally Posted by markedward View Post

    Open theism freely states that God predetermines certain things for the future as a part of his redemptive plan, and so causes those things to take place as he predetermined them (being almighty, God's plan cannot be subverted), but that is not the same thing as knowing the future.

    .
    Are there different flavors of open theism? I can see myself somewhat fitting into this particular category, the way you explained it. But I'm not certain what you mean here..."but that is not the same thing as knowing the future". I would think in some cases, God would have to know the future.

  13. #13

    Re: Do You Hold to God being As stated By Open Theists then?

    I'll again say, I do have some criticisms for the open theist view, but let me put a few Biblical scenarios out there for people to interact with. I'll start with the example I brought up earlier:

    Exodus 4.24: The text does not say that God was simply 'testing' Moses, or that God threatening to kill Moses was a way of getting Moses to realize something. The text clearly says God 'sought to put him to death'. If God indeed knew exactly what was going to happen in the future, why would God actually set out to kill Moses, if Moses was his appointed leader of Israel and God knew he wouldn't actually kill him?

    Genesis 18-19: The text does not say that God was listening to Abraham for the sake of Abraham learning a lesson. The text clearly says that God patiently let Abraham make arguments for ever-decreasing amounts of righteous citizens (settling on ten) in Sodom and Gomorrah. This results in the heavenly messengers, in the guise of men, going to Sodom to test the citizens in order to see if there are even just ten righteous ones. If God knew exactly what was going to happen in the future, what was the point of his little conversation with Abraham, what was the point of testing the residents of the city, if it didn't change the end result?

    1 Samuel 13.13: Why choose Saul if his reign starts off by going straight downhill? Specifically, why promise to Saul that if he remains faithful his lineage would continue as kings over Israel forever, if God knew beforehand that this would never be a reality? In fact, why reveal to the reader that this was ever a promise to Saul at the time it was being revoked?

    Etc.

  14. #14

    Re: Do You Hold to God being As stated By Open Theists then?

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD
    Are there different flavors of open theism? I can see myself somewhat fitting into this particular category, the way you explained it.
    I'm sure there are different types. I wouldn't know what they are, since I'm only broadly familiar with open theism (and that some think 'open futurism' would more accurately describe what the actually is).

    But I'm not certain what you mean here..."but that is not the same thing as knowing the future". I would think in some cases, God would have to know the future.
    It means that, just because God has a plan that he brings into action (and hence, he knows the future only insofar as his plan is concerned), it does not mean he knows the future in and of itself. God's plan exists, so he knows the future only as related to his plan. The future itself does not exist, so he does not know what doesn't exist.

    The closest analogy I can think of (and it falls short) is that God has a road map, that brings creation from A to B, and he has the major routes planned out ahead of time (hence, he knows what will happening according to his road map), but that doesn't mean he knows every little detail that he will later incorporate into his road trip, since he hasn't gotten to those points yet. He incorporates new elements as he progresses on the road, and works things into his plan.

    It's an inadequate explanation, but we're talking about time here, which is about as abstract as we can get.

  15. #15

    Re: Do You Hold to God being As stated By Open Theists then?

    God though HAS fixed the date/time of the return of Christ, God KNOWS when all things willbe wrapped up, knows WHEN new heavens and earth shall come...

    Are you saying that God is blind to the future as to Him even it does not happen until it happens?

    How can a Transcendant being be confined to linear time as we are?

    has he ordained the events in Revelation to come to pass?

    Are we sure that God defeats Devil in end IF unknown to him until actually happens?

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 29
    Last Post: Apr 18th 2011, 10:09 AM
  2. IMPORTANT Please pray that I would get a hold of Darrell ASAP or that he would get a hold of me
    By BibleGirl02 in forum Prayer for the Persecuted Church
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: Jul 13th 2009, 06:00 PM
  3. Genesis 1:16 - Explicitly stated metaphor?
    By ImmenseDisciple in forum Bible Chat
    Replies: 34
    Last Post: Jan 13th 2008, 09:00 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •