Hell, Hades, Abrahams Bosom, Death, Lake of Fire, Bottomless Pit

[divaD]

Was He conscious? Bible indicates He was not.

Of course He wasn't conscious in His physical body at the time, but that doesn't mean His soul was not conscious somewhere at the time. The Bible says, or should I say, Jesus Himself said that He would spend 3 days and 3 nights in the heart of the earth. Look up heart in the Greek. The sense can mean in the middle of, in relation to something else. In this case, it would be in relation to the earth, Jesus spent time in the middle of the earth, so to speak. No grave, especially a tomb above ground would be considered in the middle of the earth.

Matthew 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

heart====kardia

prolonged from a primary kar (Latin cor, "heart"); the heart, i.e. (figuratively) the thoughts or feelings (mind); also (by analogy) the middle:--(+ broken-)heart(-ed).
http://www.htmlbible.com/sacrednameb...RK25.htm#S2588

Unless I'm mistaken, the heart, in relation to our chests, it resides in the middle. In the Matthew 12:40 passage, it is the earth where Jesus would spend three days and three nights in the middle of. Since the earth would be like this huge round ball, where then would the middle be found? 6 foot below the earth? A tomb above the earth? Or actually in the middle of the earth somewhere?

But as Percho has already pointed out, there were two compartments there at the time, with a great gulf fixed between the two. Logically then, Jesus went to the good compartment during that time, setting the captives free, meaning those in Abraham's bosom. Afterall, until someone could defeat death and get the keys to death, no way for them to rise to immortality, or anybody for that matter. Jesus had to defeat death so that we could as well.

But those who conclude Jesus went to heaven to be with the Father those 3 days and 3 nights, well that's not what Scripture says.

[divaD]

Hmmm, my spirit was there but I did not go there. Does that make any sense? That is what you say Jesus did. He went to heaven the day of the crucifixion then three days later said He had not been there yet.

Certainly illogical. I at least agree with you there.

[John146]

Certainly illogical. I at least agree with you there.

No, it isn't. Do you make no distinction between the body and the spirit? If Jesus was only speaking in terms of His body why do you think He had to be speaking also in terms of His spirit? When He said He had not yet ascended why does that have to mean that even His spirit had not ascended to heaven? Why can't He have only been speaking of His bodily ascension? How do you interpret the following verse:

Luke 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

Does this not indicate that Jesus expected His spirit to go be with the Father when He physically died just as Stephen expected his spirit to go be with Jesus when he physically died?

[John146]

Of course He wasn't conscious in His physical body at the time, but that doesn't mean His soul was not conscious somewhere at the time. The Bible says, or should I say, Jesus Himself said that He would spend 3 days and 3 nights in the heart of the earth. Look up heart in the Greek. The sense can mean in the middle of, in relation to something else. In this case, it would be in relation to the earth, Jesus spent time in the middle of the earth, so to speak. No grave, especially a tomb above ground would be considered in the middle of the earth.

Matthew 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

heart====kardia

prolonged from a primary kar (Latin cor, "heart"); the heart, i.e. (figuratively) the thoughts or feelings (mind); also (by analogy) the middle:--(+ broken-)heart(-ed).
http://www.htmlbible.com/sacrednameb...RK25.htm#S2588

Unless I'm mistaken, the heart, in relation to our chests, it resides in the middle. In the Matthew 12:40 passage, it is the earth where Jesus would spend three days and three nights in the middle of. Since the earth would be like this huge round ball, where then would the middle be found? 6 foot below the earth? A tomb above the earth? Or actually in the middle of the earth somewhere?

But as Percho has already pointed out, there were two compartments there at the time, with a great gulf fixed between the two. Logically then, Jesus went to the good compartment during that time, setting the captives free, meaning those in Abraham's bosom. Afterall, until someone could defeat death and get the keys to death, no way for them to rise to immortality, or anybody for that matter. Jesus had to defeat death so that we could as well.

But those who conclude Jesus went to heaven to be with the Father those 3 days and 3 nights, well that's not what Scripture says.

It is what scripture says. Just read Luke 23:43-46. The "heart of the earth" is simply a figurative reference to the grave. Jesus was only speaking of His body in Matthew 12:40. There is no spiritual place in the middle of the earth. The spirit realm is apart from the earth.

[divaD]

There is no spiritual place in the middle of the earth. The spirit realm is apart from the earth.

Do you have Scriptural proof of that? I'm not talking about heaven tho. Clearly that has nothing to do with the earth. By spirit realm, just so we're on the same page here, I'm meaning where departed souls go upon death, mainly the wicked ones. We know where the good ones now go, which would be heaven.

You also said the heart of the earth was figurative for the grave. Does that then mean Jonah being in the belly of the whale was figurative for something as well? By that I mean, it wasn't based on an actual historic account? I get the point about how it relates to Jesus, but that isn't my point when I asked if it were figurative for something as well, besides it's comparison to Jesus' death. Isn't the belly pretty much in the middle of the body?

[percho]

My Bible tells me Jesus Christ was resurrected from the DEAD...

1Co 15:12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?

G3498
νεκρός
nekros
nek-ros'
From an apparently primary word νέκυς nekus (a corpse); dead (literally or figuratively; also as noun): - dead.

Not from life in some other place, from the dead.

He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, (Hades)

That does say the soul was resurrected from Hades, dose it not? Hades the realm/world of the dead.

[percho]

Yes for 3 days, Jesus Christ's body was dead, and in the grave. That body arose from the dead.

The question is, was His spirit also dead in the grave for three days, or did it go somewhere else during that three day period.
The further question is, if the spirit separates from the body at death, and goes some other place, is the spirit aware, conscious, and sentient during that time?

I doubt that any Christian would disagree that Christ's body was dead and in the grave for three days. The question however, where there is disagreement, is related to His immaterial spirit.

I avoided using the term 'soul' because spirit is more precise. Spirit is always used to denote the immaterial aspect of a person. Whereas soul is a loosely defined term, depending on the context of how it is used. The most common use of soul is as a synononym to the immaterial spirit; but sometimes soul is also used to denote the body itself, or the spirit/body unit....so soul can be more difficult to identify; because of the context. Spirit is always the immaterial aspect of a person; and body is always the physical aspect of a person.

Well I believe Jesus had commended his spirit into the hands of the Father. Acts 2:31 says and or implies his soul from death was in Hades. And unless I'm wrong his dead body remained on the cross until Joseph went to Pilate to ask for it and then he and Nicodemus place it in the tomb of Joseph until after the third day and in the third day and on the third day.

[percho]

There is no direct correlation whatsoever between John 20:17 and Eccl 3:21. Where the spirit goes upon physical death is not a mystery now even if it was to Solomon at that time. Scripture tells us that the spirits of the wicked go to Hades (Luke 16:19-31) and the spirits of the righteous once went to Abraham's bosom (again, Luke 16:19-31) but now go to paradise (if that is a different place than Abraham's bosom).

Why is it I can't find the word spirit or soul in the whole of chapter 16 of Luke? You are making an assumption.

[percho]

It's not at odds with John 20:17 at all. Why do you say that?

You are making no distinction between the spirit and the body for some reason. Jesus was saying the spirit of the thief on the cross would be with His spirit in paradise that very day. I don't see why there would be a problem with that understanding of the verse.

You are making another assumption. Jesus said nothing about the spirit of the thief. Jesus said "you" will be with be in paradise. You the whole person. And when he gets to paradise he will be a quickened soul by the Spirit in an incorruptible body.

[percho]

John 8:32, please look at this passage:

Acts 7:54 When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth. 55But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, 56And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God. 57Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord, 58And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul. 59And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. 60And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

Stephen knew that his spirit would be going to Jesus in heaven and that's why he said "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit" right before he physically died. Yet you are trying to say that the spirit of a believer does not go to heaven upon their physical death? Was Stephen mistaken?

Not J8/32 however.

59And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. 60And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep. And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; (the spirit of life)and man became a living soul.

When his spirit of life left him from the stoning Stephen died. Stephen was no longer a living soul. Stephen just like the brother of M&M was, according to Jesus, dead and or asleep.

Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

And the once living person/soul. Acts 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell,

[percho]

Of course He wasn't conscious in His physical body at the time, but that doesn't mean His soul was not conscious somewhere at the time. The Bible says, or should I say, Jesus Himself said that He would spend 3 days and 3 nights in the heart of the earth. Look up heart in the Greek. The sense can mean in the middle of, in relation to something else. In this case, it would be in relation to the earth, Jesus spent time in the middle of the earth, so to speak. No grave, especially a tomb above ground would be considered in the middle of the earth.

Matthew 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

heart====kardia

prolonged from a primary kar (Latin cor, "heart"); the heart, i.e. (figuratively) the thoughts or feelings (mind); also (by analogy) the middle:--(+ broken-)heart(-ed).
http://www.htmlbible.com/sacrednameb...RK25.htm#S2588

Unless I'm mistaken, the heart, in relation to our chests, it resides in the middle. In the Matthew 12:40 passage, it is the earth where Jesus would spend three days and three nights in the middle of. Since the earth would be like this huge round ball, where then would the middle be found? 6 foot below the earth? A tomb above the earth? Or actually in the middle of the earth somewhere?

But as Percho has already pointed out, there were two compartments there at the time, with a great gulf fixed between the two. Logically then, Jesus went to the good compartment during that time, setting the captives free, meaning those in Abraham's bosom. Afterall, until someone could defeat death and get the keys to death, no way for them to rise to immortality, or anybody for that matter. Jesus had to defeat death so that we could as well.

But those who conclude Jesus went to heaven to be with the Father those 3 days and 3 nights, well that's not what Scripture says.

I'm sorry. Percho did not point out two compartments. That "two compartments," is another assumption. In Hades the rich man lifted up his eyes. Eyes? The soul of Jesus was not left in Hades because of the resurrection. Lazarus was carried by the angels into the bosom of the Abraham. All that means is he died in a covenant relationship to Abraham. Abraham died in faith. Lazarus also died in faith. And actually what that means is both were called by God. Do a little re-search on the Hebrew name for Lazarus and just what it means, He was the helper of God as Eve was a help meet to Adam.

I would agree that the heart of the earth is synonymous with the lowest parts of the earth, in that once you reach the middle or lowest part in a globe one step more and you are reaching toward the surface again.

[percho]

No, it isn't. Do you make no distinction between the body and the spirit? If Jesus was only speaking in terms of His body why do you think He had to be speaking also in terms of His spirit? When He said He had not yet ascended why does that have to mean that even His spirit had not ascended to heaven? Why can't He have only been speaking of His bodily ascension? How do you interpret the following verse:

Luke 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

Does this not indicate that Jesus expected His spirit to go be with the Father when He physically died just as Stephen expected his spirit to go be with Jesus when he physically died?

Their spirits were not their souls. Their spirits were what gave life to the soul and body. The body houses the soul that is the person we all know and love or in some cases know and not loved so much. But that is because we are sinners. Love one another and also love your enemies. The soul/person of which his spirit of life has departed by and or at the time of the resurrection and appearing of Christ will be given a incorruptible house from heaven.

[John 8:32]

He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, (Hades)

That does say the soul was resurrected from Hades, dose it not? Hades the realm/world of the dead.

Soul not left in hell - hades -

G86
ᾅδης
hadēs
hah'-dace
From G1 (as a negative particle) and G1492; properly unseen, that is, “Hades” or the place (state) of departed souls: - grave, hell.

I read that as the grave, He (His flesh) did not see corruption.

G1312
διαφθορά
diaphthora
dee-af-thor-ah'
From G1311; decay: - corruption.

Did not become rotten meat.

This whole discussion goes back to the Garden and what God said...

Gen 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

And then Satan said...

Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

So the question is, who do you believe? Do we have an immortal soul? God says no, the Devil says yes. Take you pick.

[SuperSonicEvnglst]

Soul not left in hell - hades -

G86
ᾅδης
hadēs
hah'-dace
From G1 (as a negative particle) and G1492; properly unseen, that is, “Hades” or the place (state) of departed souls: - grave, hell.

I read that as the grave, He (His flesh) did not see corruption.

G1312
διαφθορά
diaphthora
dee-af-thor-ah'
From G1311; decay: - corruption.

Did not become rotten meat.

This whole discussion goes back to the Garden and what God said...

Gen 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

And then Satan said...

Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

So the question is, who do you believe? Do we have an immortal soul? God says no, the Devil says yes. Take you pick.

Soul is translated in so many different ways depending on where it is found in Scripture.
The verses you posted together is an example of taking Scripture out of context.

[John 8:32]

Soul is translated in so many different ways depending on where it is found in Scripture.
The verses you posted together is an example of taking Scripture out of context.

Show me the immortal soul scriptures.