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Thread: Hell, Hades, Abrahams Bosom, Death, Lake of Fire, Bottomless Pit

  1. #31

    Re: Hell, Hades, Abrahams Bosom, Death, Lake of Fire, Bottomless Pit

    Quote Originally Posted by Samuel Cripps View Post
    Well, we certainly must be careful with what we infer from parables.
    Persactly, especially if we understand the purpose of parables...

    Mat 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
    Mat 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
    Mat 13:12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
    Mat 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
    Mat 13:14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
    Mat 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

    They were not stories that simple farm folk could understand (that is what my sunday school teacher told me, many years ago), they were carefully designed to HIDE the truth from the masses.

  2. #32

    Re: Hell, Hades, Abrahams Bosom, Death, Lake of Fire, Bottomless Pit

    Well, the stories are simple, and convey simple yet profound spiritual truths. Jesus knew that his carnal listeners clung to the literal meaning of the stories.

    Quote Originally Posted by John 8:32 View Post
    Persactly, especially if we understand the purpose of parables...

    Mat 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
    Mat 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
    Mat 13:12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
    Mat 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
    Mat 13:14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
    Mat 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

    They were not stories that simple farm folk could understand (that is what my sunday school teacher told me, many years ago), they were carefully designed to HIDE the truth from the masses.

  3. #33

    Re: Hell, Hades, Abrahams Bosom, Death, Lake of Fire, Bottomless Pit

    I'm still not understanding where in the Bible it says that we are to disregard a prison for the fallen angels. We're assuming that they were using pagan symbolism(I know you'll say concluding), yet what basis are you using to make this conclusion? Please use Scripture
    Lord, you said I was to reflect your light to the world. Help me not be a blown bulb, and reveal to me if I'm plugged into the wrong socket.

    Amen

  4. #34

    Re: Hell, Hades, Abrahams Bosom, Death, Lake of Fire, Bottomless Pit

    Quote Originally Posted by SuperSonicEvnglst View Post
    I'm still not understanding where in the Bible it says that we are to disregard a prison for the fallen angels. We're assuming that they were using pagan symbolism(I know you'll say concluding), yet what basis are you using to make this conclusion? Please use Scripture
    2Pe 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

    G5020
    ταρταρόω
    tartaroō
    tar-tar-o'-o
    From Τάρταρος Tartaros̄ (the deepest abyss of Hades); to incarcerate in eternal torment: - cast down to hell.

    Jud 1:13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

    What are stars?

    Rev 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

  5. #35

    Re: Hell, Hades, Abrahams Bosom, Death, Lake of Fire, Bottomless Pit

    Quote Originally Posted by John 8:32 View Post
    2Pe 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

    G5020
    ταρταρόω
    tartaroō
    tar-tar-o'-o
    From Τάρταρος Tartaros̄ (the deepest abyss of Hades); to incarcerate in eternal torment: - cast down to hell.

    Jud 1:13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

    What are stars?

    Rev 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.
    So, you are saying the prison is literal?
    Lord, you said I was to reflect your light to the world. Help me not be a blown bulb, and reveal to me if I'm plugged into the wrong socket.

    Amen

  6. #36

    Re: Hell, Hades, Abrahams Bosom, Death, Lake of Fire, Bottomless Pit

    Quote Originally Posted by SuperSonicEvnglst View Post
    Why wouldn't we be "conscience" in the lake of fire? Isn't there weeping and gnashing of teeth? Also, why are we assuming the story of the rich man and Lazaruth is a parable?
    1. The lake of fire is only a symbol for God's judgment, specifically the punishment of the 'second death'. Death is not consciousness.

    2. Weeping (sadness) and gnashing of teeth (anger) will be the responses of the wicked when they are sentenced to their fate of death. It doesn't describe the fate itself.

    3. I don't assume the story of Lazarus and the rich man is a parable. It is based upon a full exegesis of Luke 15-16 that I determine it to be a parable, including the use of the names. The mere use of names does not mean it is not a parable. That is an assumption. Naming names was common in parables during Jesus' time. Jesus chose the names of two specific historical figures for the symbolic meaning drawn out by the context of the parable. Jesus is talking about inclusion of outcasts into the kingdom of God. Abraham was the father of the Covenant family, and was seen as sitting at the head of the table in the feast of the kingdom. Eleizer, aka Lazarus, was the Gentile servant of Abraham, who almost became his heir, if not for the birth of the child of the promise, Isaac. For Jesus to depict Lazarus as sitting at Abraham's side in the kingdom feast symbolizes the inclusion of outcasts into the Covenant inheritance. The traditional interpretation of the story, which claims Jesus switched topics from the rest of Luke 15-16 to tell a literal account of some guys to teach what hell is like, completely misses the real point Jesus was making.

  7. #37

    Re: Hell, Hades, Abrahams Bosom, Death, Lake of Fire, Bottomless Pit

    Quote Originally Posted by markedward View Post
    1. The lake of fire is only a symbol for God's judgment, specifically the punishment of the 'second death'. Death is not consciousness.

    2. Weeping (sadness) and gnashing of teeth (anger) will be the responses of the wicked when they are sentenced to their fate of death. It doesn't describe the fate itself.

    3. I don't assume the story of Lazarus and the rich man is a parable. It is based upon a full exegesis of Luke 15-16 that I determine it to be a parable, including the use of the names. The mere use of names does not mean it is not a parable. That is an assumption. Naming names was common in parables during Jesus' time. Jesus chose the names of two specific historical figures for the symbolic meaning drawn out by the context of the parable. Jesus is talking about inclusion of outcasts into the kingdom of God. Abraham was the father of the Covenant family, and was seen as sitting at the head of the table in the feast of the kingdom. Eleizer, aka Lazarus, was the Gentile servant of Abraham, who almost became his heir, if not for the birth of the child of the promise, Isaac. For Jesus to depict Lazarus as sitting at Abraham's side in the kingdom feast symbolizes the inclusion of outcasts into the Covenant inheritance. The traditional interpretation of the story, which claims Jesus switched topics from the rest of Luke 15-16 to tell a literal account of some guys to teach what hell is like, completely misses the real point Jesus was making.
    Still not convinced that this is "just a parable". Reading before the story, Christ talked about the pharisees' hypocrisy and marriage, then this story, not going from one parable to another.
    Christ said the rich man was buried, and woke up hell in "torments" (Matthew 25:46 “These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”)

    He then saw Lazaruth with Abraham(Luke 13: 28 There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, and yourselves thrust out.)
    Matthew 18:34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him.
    35 “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.

    •"And these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power," (2 Thess. 1:9).

    Now I do believe that not everyone will receive the same torment. Matthew 11 Christ talks about how some cities will be better off than others on the day of Judgment.

    •These men are those who are hidden reefs in your love feasts when they feast with you without fear, caring for themselves; clouds without water, carried along by winds; autumn trees without fruit, doubly dead, uprooted; 13 wild waves of the sea, casting up their own shame like foam; wandering stars, for whom the black darkness has been reserved forever," (Jude12-13).

    Also, Revelations says that the Lake of Fire has been prepared for torment that will last both day and night forever, and ever. We can all so "Oh, but it's symbolic!" but then again, I guess we could say that about every verse that doesn't agree with what we believe.
    Lord, you said I was to reflect your light to the world. Help me not be a blown bulb, and reveal to me if I'm plugged into the wrong socket.

    Amen

  8. #38

    Re: Hell, Hades, Abrahams Bosom, Death, Lake of Fire, Bottomless Pit

    SuperSonic,

    What about the parable of the Unjust Steward (Luke 16:1?) You accept that this is a parable, don't you?

    Quote Originally Posted by SuperSonicEvnglst View Post
    Still not convinced that this is "just a parable". Reading before the story, Christ talked about the pharisees' hypocrisy and marriage, then this story, not going from one parable to another.
    Christ said the rich man was buried, and woke up hell in "torments" (Matthew 25:46 “These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”)

    He then saw Lazaruth with Abraham(Luke 13: 28 There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, and yourselves thrust out.)
    Matthew 18:34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him.
    35 “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.

    •"And these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power," (2 Thess. 1:9).

    Now I do believe that not everyone will receive the same torment. Matthew 11 Christ talks about how some cities will be better off than others on the day of Judgment.

    •These men are those who are hidden reefs in your love feasts when they feast with you without fear, caring for themselves; clouds without water, carried along by winds; autumn trees without fruit, doubly dead, uprooted; 13 wild waves of the sea, casting up their own shame like foam; wandering stars, for whom the black darkness has been reserved forever," (Jude12-13).

    Also, Revelations says that the Lake of Fire has been prepared for torment that will last both day and night forever, and ever. We can all so "Oh, but it's symbolic!" but then again, I guess we could say that about every verse that doesn't agree with what we believe.

  9. #39

    Re: Hell, Hades, Abrahams Bosom, Death, Lake of Fire, Bottomless Pit

    Quote Originally Posted by Samuel Cripps View Post
    SuperSonic,

    What about the parable of the Unjust Steward (Luke 16:1?) You accept that this is a parable, don't you?
    I do, and I believe the message within the parable is that God rewards faithful stewardship. Indeed, the story of Lazureth could be just a parable, but interesting enough, a man named Lazureth did rise from the grave, and interesting enough, the Jews still rejected the Messiah as a whole.

    Your view of the story of the rich man and lazureth not giving an accurate account of hell is first your conclusion, then the Scriptures. This story along with all the other verses I have read about hell and judgment go hand in hand with each other. The view that there is no eternal fire is in direct violation with what Christ said. Are you seriously saying that pagan stories trump Christ? We are not to be turned to fables, but to listen to what the Scripture say. You have concluded hell is not real, so your assumption of every verse about hell is symbolic. I have concluded based off all Scripture that hell is a real place.
    Lord, you said I was to reflect your light to the world. Help me not be a blown bulb, and reveal to me if I'm plugged into the wrong socket.

    Amen

  10. #40

    Re: Hell, Hades, Abrahams Bosom, Death, Lake of Fire, Bottomless Pit

    Quote Originally Posted by markedward View Post
    1. The lake of fire is only a symbol for God's judgment, specifically the punishment of the 'second death'. Death is not consciousness.
    Can you give me Scripture that hell(hell and the lake of fire are two different things, see Rev 20) is only a symbol of God's Judgment?
    Lord, you said I was to reflect your light to the world. Help me not be a blown bulb, and reveal to me if I'm plugged into the wrong socket.

    Amen

  11. #41

    Re: Hell, Hades, Abrahams Bosom, Death, Lake of Fire, Bottomless Pit

    The parable of the Unjust Steward begins in the same way that the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus begins: "There was a certain rich man..." What do you make of that.

    Also, Jesus speaks about Hades in this story, not Gehenna. So the parallels you are drawing just don't hold up.

    Quote Originally Posted by SuperSonicEvnglst View Post
    I do, and I believe the message within the parable is that God rewards faithful stewardship. Indeed, the story of Lazureth could be just a parable, but interesting enough, a man named Lazureth did rise from the grave, and interesting enough, the Jews still rejected the Messiah as a whole.

    Your view of the story of the rich man and lazureth not giving an accurate account of hell is first your conclusion, then the Scriptures. This story along with all the other verses I have read about hell and judgment go hand in hand with each other. The view that there is no eternal fire is in direct violation with what Christ said. Are you seriously saying that pagan stories trump Christ? We are not to be turned to fables, but to listen to what the Scripture say. You have concluded hell is not real, so your assumption of every verse about hell is symbolic. I have concluded based off all Scripture that hell is a real place.

  12. #42

    Re: Hell, Hades, Abrahams Bosom, Death, Lake of Fire, Bottomless Pit

    Quote Originally Posted by Samuel Cripps View Post
    The parable of the Unjust Steward begins in the same way that the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus begins: "There was a certain rich man..." What do you make of that.

    Also, Jesus speaks about Hades in this story, not Gehenna. So the parallels you are drawing just don't hold up.
    Hades is described as being in the heart of the earth in Matthew 12:40 and is said to be below, down, or beneath in passages such as Deuteronomy 32:22, Isaiah 14:9, and Ezekiel 31:16. Many times the Bible will translate sheol or hades as "grave", but the grave is only the place for the body, not for the soul. Confusion occurs when the Word speaks of righteous men going to "Sheol", such as men like Jacob, Joseph, (Genesis 37:35) and Job (Job 14:13). Of course, these men did not go to a place of torment, but to the comfort side of Sheol (Hades), called Abraham's Bosom.

    Again, what Scripture do you use saying the eternal lake of fire in which Christ plainly spoke about is only pagan symbolism? There is a place of eternal torment for the one who has rejected Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour.
    Lord, you said I was to reflect your light to the world. Help me not be a blown bulb, and reveal to me if I'm plugged into the wrong socket.

    Amen

  13. #43

    Re: Hell, Hades, Abrahams Bosom, Death, Lake of Fire, Bottomless Pit

    Quote Originally Posted by Samuel Cripps View Post
    Also, Jesus speaks about Hades in this story, not Gehenna. So the parallels you are drawing just don't hold up.
    Gehenna sounds like the Lake of fire in which "hell" will be thrown into in Revelations 20.

    Also, man consists of body, soul and spirit. How can God destroy a spirit?
    Lord, you said I was to reflect your light to the world. Help me not be a blown bulb, and reveal to me if I'm plugged into the wrong socket.

    Amen

  14. #44

    Re: Hell, Hades, Abrahams Bosom, Death, Lake of Fire, Bottomless Pit

    What do you make of Acts 2:27? What is nature of this "corruption" ?

    I never suggested the lake of fire is pagan symbolism.

    Quote Originally Posted by SuperSonicEvnglst View Post
    Hades is described as being in the heart of the earth in Matthew 12:40 and is said to be below, down, or beneath in passages such as Deuteronomy 32:22, Isaiah 14:9, and Ezekiel 31:16. Many times the Bible will translate sheol or hades as "grave", but the grave is only the place for the body, not for the soul. Confusion occurs when the Word speaks of righteous men going to "Sheol", such as men like Jacob, Joseph, (Genesis 37:35) and Job (Job 14:13). Of course, these men did not go to a place of torment, but to the comfort side of Sheol (Hades), called Abraham's Bosom.

    Again, what Scripture do you use saying the eternal lake of fire in which Christ plainly spoke about is only pagan symbolism? There is a place of eternal torment for the one who has rejected Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour.

  15. #45

    Re: Hell, Hades, Abrahams Bosom, Death, Lake of Fire, Bottomless Pit

    Quote Originally Posted by SuperSonicEvnglst View Post
    Gehenna sounds like the Lake of fire in which "hell" will be thrown into in Revelations 20.

    Also, man consists of body, soul and spirit. How can God destroy a spirit?
    The parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus speaks about Hades, which will be cast into the lake of fire. Do you disagree?

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