What is the third woe?

[John 8:32]

I am beginning to lean that way too since it says in Rev 12:12

Therefore rejoice, [ye] heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.


I use to think that the seventh trumpet ended in Rev 11:19 but am now beginning to think that is not the case. The original text did not have chapters headings so we should read it as if there are no chapter headings. Seems to me that that it is possible that the devil coming to earth having great wrath should be considered part of the seventh trumpet.

The seventh trumpet (the last trump) signifies the return of Christ and the beginning of the Day (1 year Num 14:34 and Ezek 4:6) of the Lord. As for the Day of the Lord...

Joe 1:15 Alas for the day! for the day of the LORD is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come.

Joe 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

Joe 3:14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision. (the valley of Jehoshaphat)

Amo 5:18 Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light.
Amo 5:19 As if a man did flee from a lion, and a bear met him; or went into the house, and leaned his hand on the wall, and a serpent bit him.
Amo 5:20 Shall not the day of the LORD be darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it?

Oba 1:15 For the day of the LORD is near upon all the heathen: as thou hast done, it shall be done unto thee: thy reward shall return upon thine own head.
Oba 1:16 For as ye have drunk upon my holy mountain, so shall all the heathen drink continually, yea, they shall drink, and they shall swallow down, and they shall be as though they had not been.

Zep 1:7 Hold thy peace at the presence of the Lord GOD: for the day of the LORD is at hand: for the LORD hath prepared a sacrifice, he hath bid his guests.
Zep 1:8 And it shall come to pass in the day of the LORD'S sacrifice, that I will punish the princes, and the king's children, and all such as are clothed with strange apparel.
Zep 1:9 In the same day also will I punish all those that leap on the threshold, which fill their masters' houses with violence and deceit.
Zep 1:10 And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD, that there shall be the noise of a cry from the fish gate, and an howling from the second, and a great crashing from the hills.
Zep 1:11 Howl, ye inhabitants of Maktesh, for all the merchant people are cut down; all they that bear silver are cut off.
Zep 1:12 And it shall come to pass at that time, that I will search Jerusalem with candles, and punish the men that are settled on their lees: that say in their heart, The LORD will not do good, neither will he do evil.
Zep 1:13 Therefore their goods shall become a booty, and their houses a desolation: they shall also build houses, but not inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, but not drink the wine thereof.
Zep 1:14 The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.
Zep 1:15 That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,
Zep 1:16 A day of the trumpet and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers.
Zep 1:17 And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the LORD: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung.
Zep 1:18 Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the LORD'S wrath; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy: for he shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land.

Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

Get the point? John was not talking about some day of the week here, he was talking about the one year period called the Day of the Lord announced by the seventh trumpet.

Now this trumpet sounds well after Satan is cast down to the earth...

Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
Rev 12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
Rev 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

This is the 3-1/2 years of the two witnesses...

Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
Rev 11:5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
Rev 11:6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
Rev 11:9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
Rev 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
Rev 11:11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
Rev 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
Rev 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
Rev 11:14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

So, Satan is cast down before the 3-1/2 years of the church in the place of safety and the two witnesses prophesying. Then, when the two witnesses are killed, they lay dead in the streets for 3-1/2 days, then at the Seventh Trump they are resurrected along with the rest of the saints...

1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

[John146]

Rev 9:12
One woe is past; [and], behold, there come two woes more hereafter.

rev 11:14
The second woe is past; [and], behold, the third woe cometh quickly.



I can't find where it specifically tells us what the third woe is.

Rev 8:13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!

As this verse indicates, the last three woes correspond with the last three trumpets. Since the third woe occurs with the seventh trumpet then the third woe is described here:

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. 16And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 17Saying, We give thee thanks, O LORD God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. 18And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

So, the third woe has to do with God's wrath having come and Him destroying "them which destroy the earth" and it being "the time of the dead, that they should be judged".

[John146]

You know I have to jump in..

I fully agree with the bolded part regarding the second coming, and Jesus taking His place over the kingdoms of the earth, which are rightfully His, and to the throne of David which is also rightfully His, Him being the rightful Heir..

However...

I disagree that the "last" trumpet of Corinthians and the "seventh" of Revelation are the same thing, based on the former being an announcement to gather, and the latter is an announcement of judgement...regarding only unbelievers.

I disagree. The seventh trumpet does not just announce the judgment of unbelievers.

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. 16And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 17Saying, We give thee thanks, O LORD God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. 18And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

It also signals the time when He will "give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great". When will He do that?

Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

At His second coming. Can you see how this verse gives the timing of when He will "give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great"? These verses indicate that His coming will be at the seventh trumpet because that is when He will reward His people.

What reward do you believe Rev 11:18 is referring to exactly? I would say it would include the reward of being changed to have immortal and incorruptible bodies. In what sense is the last trumpet the last one to sound if it is not the last of the seven prophetic trumpets to sound? In your view the last trumpet is not the last prophetic trumpet to sound and I don't think that makes any sense. I can't think of any other sense in which it would be called the last trumpet except that it will be the last trumpet to sound with no other trumpets sounding after it. If it's not truly the last trumpet then why is it called that?

[John146]

The things of 11:18 are not happening at that time but announcing that that time has come....there is no more delay for the execution of these things.

If there will be no more delay for those things to happen at that point then how can you say they are not happening at that time? That doesn't make any sense.

[quiet dove]

I disagree. The seventh trumpet does not just announce the judgment of unbelievers.

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. 16And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 17Saying, We give thee thanks, O LORD God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. 18And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

It also signals the time when He will "give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great". When will He do that?

Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

At His second coming. Can you see how this verse gives the timing of when He will "give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great"? These verses indicate that His coming will be at the seventh trumpet because that is when He will reward His people.

What reward do you believe Rev 11:18 is referring to exactly? I would say it would include the reward of being changed to have immortal and incorruptible bodies. In what sense is the last trumpet the last one to sound if it is not the last of the seven prophetic trumpets to sound? In your view the last trumpet is not the last prophetic trumpet to sound and I don't think that makes any sense. I can't think of any other sense in which it would be called the last trumpet except that it will be the last trumpet to sound with no other trumpets sounding after it. If it's not truly the last trumpet then why is it called that?

Reward may or may not be limited to "change" ...it could also be those who go into the Millennial Kingdom. Revelation 22 and 11 I do not believe to be at the same time...

The seventh trumpet announces that the time has come for these things to come to pass, not that at the seventh trumpet they come to pass...reading on we can see that that seventh trumpet is followed by the seven bowl plagues...which are followed by the Second Advent, which is then itself followed by the separation of the sheep and goats, the goats being removed and the sheep entering the Millennial kingdom.

This is totally different than what Paul describes and says the last trumpet announces....

[quiet dove]

If there will be no more delay for those things to happen at that point then how can you say they are not happening at that time? That doesn't make any sense.

They do happen at that time, but there is still a chronological order of things...we have been waiting thousands of years for these prophecies to come to pass...when that seventh trumpet sounds, there will be no more delay/waiting...they will begin and follow the order as they are given.

One can plan a vacation for a year, but when you get in the car, there is no more delay or waiting...it has begun though it is not finished.

[John146]

Reward may or may not be limited to "change" ...it could also be those who go into the Millennial Kingdom. Revelation 22 and 11 I do not believe to be at the same time...

I'm not sure why that is. Jesus said He will be giving rewards to "every man" at His coming. Rev 11 indicates that saints will be given their rewards at the seventh trumpet. Why would saints be given rewards at different times? I don't believe that makes sense. They will be given their rewards around the time of the seventh trumpet and Christ's second coming. That tells me His second coming occurs at the seventh trumpet.

The seventh trumpet announces that the time has come for these things to come to pass, not that at the seventh trumpet they come to pass...

If the time has come for those things to pass doesn't that mean they would at least happen very shortly after the sounding of the seventh trumpet? How long after the seventh trumpet sounds do you believe the things described in Rev 11:18 will occur?

reading on we can see that that seventh trumpet is followed by the seven bowl plagues...which are followed by the Second Advent, which is then itself followed by the separation of the sheep and goats, the goats being removed and the sheep entering the Millennial kingdom.

You're assuming all of that is chronological, but the book of Revelation is not a chronological book from beginning to end.

This is totally different than what Paul describes and says the last trumpet announces....

That's like saying Rev 19 and Matt 24:29-31 can't be speaking of the same event since Rev 19 makes no mention of the gathering of the elect. Just because two passages contain different details about an event doesn't mean they can't be speaking of the same event.

[John146]

They do happen at that time, but there is still a chronological order of things...we have been waiting thousands of years for these prophecies to come to pass...when that seventh trumpet sounds, there will be no more delay/waiting...they will begin and follow the order as they are given.

Is there any basis for thinking any one of the things mentioned in Rev 11:18 would occur over a thousand years after the sounding of the seventh trumpet? I don't believe so, yet that's what you believe. We both agree that the dead will be judged after the thousand years, right (Rev 20:11-15)? Well, Rev 11:18 indicates that the seventh trumpet signals "the time of the dead, that they should be judged". Why would the seventh trumpet signal the time of the dead being judged if they aren't actually judged for another thousand plus years after that?

[quiet dove]

Is there any basis for thinking any one of the things mentioned in Rev 11:18 would occur over a thousand years after the sounding of the seventh trumpet? I don't believe so, yet that's what you believe. We both agree that the dead will be judged after the thousand years, right (Rev 20:11-15)? Well, Rev 11:18 indicates that the seventh trumpet signals "the time of the dead, that they should be judged". Why would the seventh trumpet signal the time of the dead being judged if they aren't actually judged for another thousand plus years after that?

I did not say that 11:18 happened after the 1000 years...I said that reward may not be limited to resurrected and it may also be considered reward to enter the Millennial kingdom.

[John146]

I did not say that 11:18 happened after the 1000 years...I said that reward may not be limited to resurrected and it may also be considered reward to enter the Millennial kingdom.

I know you didn't say that specifically, but I'm saying I believe that's what your view implies. When do you believe the dead will be judged? Can you see in Rev 11:18 that one of the things that the seventh trumpet signals is "the time of the dead, that they should be judged"? When will that happen? Aren't the dead judged after the thousand years (Rev 20:11-15)?

[divaD]

I know you didn't say that specifically, but I'm saying I believe that's what your view implies. When do you believe the dead will be judged? Can you see in Rev 11:18 that one of the things that the seventh trumpet signals is "the time of the dead, that they should be judged"? When will that happen? Aren't the dead judged after the thousand years (Rev 20:11-15)?

Revelation 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Let's break Revelation 11:18 down into sections, then try and connect each section to Rev 19 and or 20.

And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come

Revelation 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.



and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.




and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

IOW, all of this occurs as of the 7th trumpet.

[John146]

Revelation 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Let's break Revelation 11:18 down into sections, then try and connect each section to Rev 19 and or 20.

And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come

Revelation 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.



and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.




and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

IOW, all of this occurs as of the 7th trumpet.

I disagree that Rev 20:4-6 will all occur at the seventh trumpet since I don't believe the reign of Christ begins at the 7th trumpet. Why would Rev 20:11-15 not occur as of the seventh trumpet? When else will the dead be judged except after the thousand years?

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

The time of the dead being judged? Let's see, when will that be...

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

[rom826]

In context, the grouping of the 'three woes' is that of judgment from God.

The dragon being cast down to the earth is called a 'woe' because it means he brings persecution against God's people.

The type of 'woe' that the group of three are, and the type of 'woe' that the dragon brings, are diametrically opposed. The 'woe' of the dragon as persecution does not fit the context of the 'three woes' as judgment.

It says woe to the inhabitants of the earth and sea, not just God's people. Yes, at that time, the devil will make war against Israel but God will help Israel at that time.

[ross3421]

Rev 8:13 tells us that each of the fifth, sixth and seventh trumpets have a "woe" in them. So exactly what is the "woe" that occurs during the seventh trumpet.

Rev 8:13
And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!

The third woe is the second coming.... I thought that was obvious.

[John 8:32]

The third woe is the second coming.... I thought that was obvious.

Exactly...

Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Read these verses together and it becomes obvious that the third woe is the last trump and the return of Christ...

Isa 26:21 For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

Rev 14 and Zech 14 are a good read right about now.