Is the character of Jesus and the character of God the same?

[Brother Mark]

Your heading does not say "righteousness of God in Him" it says As righteous as Christ. I was right and am still right to stand against that. Did you put it down that way just to extract a reply like mine so you can have a cheap feeling of superiority by then posting as you have done above.

Correct it. Change it to "righteousness of God in Him" and stop setting traps for people.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Naw, it's not a trap. It's an encouragement! If we are not as righteous as Christ, we don't make it in! But because he became sin, and we take on his righteous, we get in!

Grace to you,

Mark

[LookingUp]

OK. Poll question. Feel free to explain your answer if you feel the need.

Bonus question... how does your answer impact your interpretation of the OT or NT?

I would say their character is the same. Christ Jesus is the full, complete, perfect revelation of God the Father. Christ Jesus is "the exact representation of His nature" (Heb. 1) and "He who has seen me has seen the Father" (John 14).

This does impact my interpretation of the OT. I'm able to read all of God's actions in the OT ("the harsh God") in light of the God that has been revealed to us in Christ Jesus.

I'm curious to know what motivated you to ask this question.

[Slug1]

OK. Poll question. Feel free to explain your answer if you feel the need.

Bonus question... how does your answer impact your interpretation of the OT or NT?

The character can't change, or won't change... whatever way it's understood. Our understanding OF their character can change.

Take this scripture for instance:

Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever. 9 Do not be carried about[c] with various and strange doctrines. For it is good that the heart be established by grace, not with foods which have not profited those who have been occupied with them.

This is WHY our understanding or even our belief of God's character, or Jesus' character... changes.

Someone interprets scripture the way they like, then they put an "ism" at the tail end of the name of their belief system, or if they are full of pride enough, add the "ism" at the end of their own name... and they have introduced exactly what we are warned about in this scripture. These people who are teachers of these doctrines, we're warned about and are even explained to us in scripture as well and they go by the titles of "false" teachers or even "false" prophets.

They have changed the character of God and do it in various means... usually with a new Gospel. Also, a false understanding of context of scripture.

People who believe these "isms"... when they discover scriptures in the Bible (truth) that are counter to the character of God that their SYSTEM of (false truth) belief is all about, they have some choices.

Ignore the scriptures counter to the "ism", or explain away those scriptures counter to the "ism", or twist those scriptures and fit the square peg into the round hole thus falsely believe that the scripture fits the "ism", or be in bondage so strongly to the "ism" that scripture is wrong and the "ism" is right... I'm sure there are some more but the point is clear I would expect.

God don't change, Jesus don't change, the Holy Spirit don't change. Never have and never will.

[Ta-An]

I do not think that all the characteristics are the same

[Brother Mark]

I would say their character is the same. Christ Jesus is the full, complete, perfect revelation of God the Father. Christ Jesus is "the exact representation of His nature" (Heb. 1) and "He who has seen me has seen the Father" (John 14).

I agree.

This does impact my interpretation of the OT. I'm able to read all of God's actions in the OT ("the harsh God") in light of the God that has been revealed to us in Christ Jesus.

Paul wrote of the severity and kindness of God. It helps to keep both in mind.

I'm curious to know what motivated you to ask this question.

Curiosity at this point. Just wondering how people view differences or similarities.

[Brother Mark]

I do not think that all the characteristics are the same

Care to expound on that?

[awestruckchild]

I have a question, Mark.
I have never understood the difference between men in the OT believing God, and God counted it as righteousness, and believing Jesus, and it being counted as righteousness.
My mind hits a little bit of a snag.
When I think about it, I say: oh, well none of us is constantly in a state of believing, so instead of moving in and out of righteousness, we now....remain there?

[Brother Mark]

I have a question, Mark.
I have never understood the difference between men in the OT believing God, and God counted it as righteousness, and believing Jesus, and it being counted as righteousness.

I don't think there is one.

My mind hits a little bit of a snag.
When I think about it, I say: oh, well none of us is constantly in a state of believing, so instead of moving in and out of righteousness, we now....remain there?

Not sure what you are getting at, but it seems to me that it is eternal security, or osas, stuff you are hinting at. I would say it this way, I believe a person can lose their promises here on earth (see King Saul and Lot) based on our performance here. I think losing our salvation requires a more willful walking away like Esau.

I do think there is a positional righteousness. I think the filling of the Spirit comes and go as it did on some of the OT saints like Samson. But that doesn't mean they ceased being righteous unless they were cut off.

Anyway, I hope this doesn't turn into a OSAS/NOSAS thread but it could! And of course, I shared my opinion of what I think is rightly dividing the word of truth. My mind can be changed on some of it, but not all.

[awestruckchild]

I don't think there is one.



Not sure what you are getting at, but it seems to me that it is eternal security, or osas, stuff you are hinting at. I would say it this way, I believe a person can lose their promises here on earth (see King Saul and Lot) based on our performance here. I think losing our salvation requires a more willful walking away like Esau.

I do think there is a positional righteousness. I think the filling of the Spirit comes and go as it did on some of the OT saints like Samson. But that doesn't mean they ceased being righteous unless they were cut off.

Anyway, I hope this doesn't turn into a OSAS/NOSAS thread but it could! And of course, I shared my opinion of what I think is rightly dividing the word of truth. My mind can be changed on some of it, but not all.

Shush!! I didn't say anything about OSAS/NOSAS!
Shush! They'll hear you!
No, what I was asking was: if it is believing God that gets us counted as righteous, my mind hits the snag of, it has always been believing God and it still is that gets us counted as righteous.
So...the snag is like, Lord forgive me for saying this, it was possible for men to one day enter heaven without the perfect Sacrifice having been made?? And yet then it also says something about Him being slain from the foundation of the world....it just snags me and I get confused is all...

[Brother Mark]

Shush!! I didn't say anything about OSAS/NOSAS!
Shush! They'll hear you!

LOL! Now that there is funny. lol.

No, what I was asking was: if it is believing God that gets us counted as righteous, my mind hits the snag of, it has always been believing God and it still is that gets us counted as righteous.

Yes. It always has been and will be for so long as the Lord tarries.

So...the snag is like, Lord forgive me for saying this, it was possible for men to one day enter heaven without the perfect Sacrifice having been made?? And yet then it also says something about Him being slain from the foundation of the world....it just snags me and I get confused is all...

Well, Abraham's bosom was where they went before Jesus died. Jesus himself told the thief "Today you will be with me in paradise". It wasn't until after Jesus rose again that heaven became possible for the dead saints. Stephen, before he was stoned said "I see Jesus standing at the right hand of the Father in heaven." And Paul said "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord." The way I read it, is that before Jesus death, the OT saints went to paradise, also known as Abraham's bosom. Jesus went there after his death and has since taken them to heaven. That's where we will be when we die. In the presence of Christ.

Did that answer the question?

[awestruckchild]

By saying that we lose our promises based on our performance here, do you mean also the promise of eternal life? Well, heck, now I've done it. Sheesh...
What you said doesn't scare me. I'm not scared, so don't worry.
But at the same time, my performance is pretty shoddy.
I forget so much and seem to have to relearn it and relearn it.
I get angry.
I get scared about money sometimes.

I find myself slipping into the cares of life on the planet and when I worry about money, I am obviously not believing what He has said right then.

Sometimes I fight to protect possessions, and when I do, I'm obviously not following Him well (or at all), so my performance is pretty shoddy.

Cripes! What am I trying to say? What do you mean when you say "lose your promises" I guess is my question.

[awestruckchild]

LOL! Now that there is funny. lol.



Yes. It always has been and will be for so long as the Lord tarries.



Well, Abraham's bosom was where they went before Jesus died. Jesus himself told the thief "Today you will be with me in paradise". It wasn't until after Jesus rose again that heaven became possible for the dead saints. Stephen, before he was stoned said "I see Jesus standing at the right hand of the Father in heaven." And Paul said "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord." The way I read it, is that before Jesus death, the OT saints went to paradise, also known as Abraham's bosom. Jesus went there after his death and has since taken them to heaven. That's where we will be when we die. In the presence of Christ.

Did that answer the question?

Yes, that pretty well answered it I think.
I remember reading too, that they "slept" prior to His death.
So, no, they did not enter God's presence until after the Sacrifice.
Thanks!

[Brother Mark]

By saying that we lose our promises based on our performance here, do you mean also the promise of eternal life? Well, heck, now I've done it. Sheesh...

I wasn't getting at that. I was speaking not of eternal promises but of promises for this life. Lot was saved. But look at what his decisions cost him. Saul didn't keep his end of the bargain and lost the kingdom. His son Jonathan who scripture suggest is a good man, was not king because of his dad's sin.

So no. I wasn't speaking about eternal consequences.

God is merciful. Jesus told Peter to forgive 7 times 70 in a single day! You know why? Because God forgives like that!

I find myself slipping into the cares of life on the planet and when I worry about money, I am obviously not believing what He has said right then.

Sometimes I fight to protect possessions, and when I do, I'm obviously not following Him well (or at all), so my performance is pretty shoddy.

Well we all do that. I am so grateful for verses like this one.

Ps 103:13-14
13 Just as a father has compassion on his children,
So the Lord has compassion on those who fear Him.
14 For He Himself knows our frame;
He is mindful that we are but dust.
NASU

and this one...

Heb 4:14-16

14 Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. 15 For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin. 16 Therefore let us draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.
NASU

That one in Hebrews is something special. God tells me to come boldly to him to obtain mercy. Now why might I need mercy? Because I have sinned! Yet, in my sin, God is telling me to come boldly to Him at his Throne so that I can get mercy and grace! Now, talk about something to chew on!

Cripes! What am I trying to say? What do you mean when you say "lose your promises" I guess is my question.

We are promised some things here. Our decisions here will impact those things that happen here. Lot was saved eternally. But because of how he lived his life, there was a great cost to him here. Does that make sense?

[markedward]

Hebrews 1.3: [The Son] is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his substance...

Underlined word in Greek is χαρακτηρ / charakter.

[awestruckchild]

Thank you Mark.
What are we promised here that we lose based on our performance?