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Thread: Ye are the branches he is the vine.

  1. #1
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    Ye are the branches he is the vine.

    I was reading in Isaiah and noticed.

    The vineyard of the Lord Almighty

    is the house of Israel,

    and the men of Judah

    are the garden of his delight.

    Isaiah 5:7-8

    It is interesting that in Isaiah the idea of Israel as a Vineyard comes up. It is rebuked for bearing only bad fruit.



    I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunesa so that it will be even more fruitful. John 15:1-2

    Then in John Jesus is depicted as the "true vine". Jesus himself at one point saying that
    "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel." Matthew 15:24

    I wonder if this is accurate to apply these ideas to ourselves? I noticed also that although "fruit" is brought up after Jesus death, it is speaking about the "fruit of the spirit" which it seems many people reread back into the "fruit of the vine". That seems wrong. We should be careful to not get our vines, olive, and fig trees mixed up.

    One more interesting thought is that, although it is not mentioned after Jesus refers to himself as the vine through all the discourses to the church... it is brought up one last time in Revelations.

    Still another angel, who had charge of the fire, came from the altar and called in a loud voice to him who had the sharp sickle, "Take your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of grapes from the earth's vine, because its grapes are ripe." Revelations 14:18


    This seems to be another reference to Israel as the church has not been mentioned since Chapter 4. It is very interesting when left in its proper context.

    Thoughts?

  2. #2

    Re: Ye are the branches he is the vine.

    the church has not been mentioned since Chapter 4.
    Several things that are stated to or about the Church in the first three chapters are repeatedly brought up throughout the book, which makes it clear that the book does have to do with the Church. John is not suggesting that the Church disappeared from his visions. For example:

    1.4,6, the seven churches in Asia were made into 'a kingdom' and 'priests' by Jesus → 5.9-10, the twenty-four elders claim that Jesus has 'made us a kingdom and priests'.

    The word 'church' isn't used after chapter 4. This doesn't mean the Church isn't in view as the book progresses.

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    Re: Ye are the branches he is the vine.

    1.4,6, the seven churches in Asia were made into 'a kingdom' and 'priests' by Jesus → 5.9-10, the twenty-four elders claim that Jesus has 'made us a kingdom and priests'.
    That is true. But it doesn't seem to in anyway prove that the church is still on earth at this time.

    You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God,

    "have made" past tense.

    and they will reign on the earth.” Revelaton 5:10

    "will reign" future tense.

    However between the "have made" and the "will reign" it seems to say there is a "time of Jacob's trouble". Jacob's name of course was changed to Israel.

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    Re: Ye are the branches he is the vine.

    Quote Originally Posted by jesse View Post
    That is true. But it doesn't seem to in anyway prove that the church is still on earth at this time.

    You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God,

    "have made" past tense.

    and they will reign on the earth. Revelaton 5:10

    "will reign" future tense.

    However between the "have made" and the "will reign" it seems to say there is a "time of Jacob's trouble". Jacob's name of course was changed to Israel.


    Revelation 22:16 "I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star." 17 The Spirit and the bride say, "Come." And let the one who hears say, "Come." And let the one who is thirsty come ; let the one who wishes take the water of life without cost.
    Who is the Book of Revelation written for, and why? Who is to react to it, and for what purpose?

    The body comes with Jesus in white robes on horses to Armageddon. But the Day of the Lord is not just one instant in time. The Day of the Lord includes the rapture and the triumphant return to smite those gathered about Jerusalem, followed by 1000 years which are part of that 'age', which culminates, of course, with the second great battle around Jerusalem (after the literal 1000 year reign of Christ on the Earth) and the great white throne judgment of those whose names are not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world.

    All this stuff about the church not being present means nothing to the question of whether the church will be persecuted by THE Antichrist. Of course they will.

    Will we have to endure the enormous disasters associated with the pouring of His wrath uon the natural world? Well, we do today, though God saves a remnant, usually. Either we are with Him during that, or He protects us as He sees fit.

    The key is not whether we are appointed for wrath, because that refers to eternal punishment in the lake of fire. It could also refer to the bowls of God's wrath to be poured out on the earth. As I said, however, the Day of the Lord is not one minute, nor just 24 hours. It is a new age, after the church age. But that does not support the idea the majority of the church on earth at the time of Antichrist will escape the testing he is specifically authorized to inflict upon "the saints."

    "Saint" is hagios which means holy, or holy ones. The holy ones appear in Revelation a lot. Are they only raptured saints? No. Are they merely post-rapture converts? There is no evidence of that. Look at all the references to human "saints" in Revelation.

    Rev. 5:8 When He had taken the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.

    8:3 Another angel came and stood at the altar, holding a golden censer ; and much incense was given to him, so that he might add it to the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar which was before the throne. 4 And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, went up before God out of the angel's hand.

    11:18 "And the nations were enraged, and Your wrath came, and the time came for the dead to be judged, and the time to reward Your bond-servants the prophets and the saints and those who fear Your name, the small and the great, and to destroy those who destroy the earth."

    13:7 It was also given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them, and authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him. ...
    10 If anyone is destined for captivity, to captivity he goes ; if anyone kills with the sword, with the sword he must be killed. Here is the perseverance and the faith of the saints.

    14: 9 Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger ; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever ; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name." 12 Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.

    16:6 for they poured out the blood of saints and prophets, and You have given them blood to drink. They deserve it."

    17:6 for they poured out the blood of saints and prophets, and You have given them blood to drink. They deserve it."

    18;20 "Rejoice over her, O heaven, and you saints and apostles and prophets, because God has pronounced judgment for you against her." ... 24 "And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints and of all who have been slain on the earth."

    19;8 It was given to her to clothe herself in fine linen, bright and clean ; for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.

    20;6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection ; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years. ... 9 And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them. (MILLENIAL KINGDOM)

    22:11 "Let the one who does wrong, still do wrong ; and the one who is filthy, still be filthy ; and let the one who is righteous, still practice righteousness ; and the one who is holy, still keep himself holy."

    So, there you have it. The 'hagios' one is "the one who is holy, still keep[ing] himself holy". How so? Not taking the mark of the Beast, mon frere!
    Love first, ... answer questions ... later ...

  5. #5

    Re: Ye are the branches he is the vine.

    Quote Originally Posted by jesse
    That is true. But it doesn't seem to in anyway prove that the church is still on earth at this time.

    You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God,

    "have made" past tense.
    The context of both Revelation 1.4-6 and 5.9-10 connect the foundation of the 'kingdom of priests' to the death of Jesus ('freed us from our sins by his blood' in the first, 'by your blood you ransomed people for God' in the second). John isn't saying the Church has been removed from the earth by this point in his vision, he's pointing back to the time of Jesus' death on the cross. 'By his blood' Jesus 'has made' us a kingdom of priests.

    and they will reign on the earth.” Revelaton 5:10

    "will reign" future tense.
    The use of the future tense has nothing to do with whether the Church is present upon the earth within John's visions. (Besides, Paul says that we are reigning, right now. See, for example, Ephesians 2.4-7.)

    However between the "have made" and the "will reign" it seems to say there is a "time of Jacob's trouble". Jacob's name of course was changed to Israel.
    I never understood why 'Jacob's trouble' was such a buzzword to certain Christians. You're free to disagree, of course, but I had always thought it was clear that Jeremiah 30 is continuing the context of the previous chapter: 'Jacob's trouble' is the Babylonian exile mentioned in 29.28.

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    Re: Ye are the branches he is the vine.

    Quote Originally Posted by jesse View Post
    “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes. It is interesting that in Isaiah the idea of Israel as a Vineyard comes up.
    Hi Jesse,

    In John 15, do you understand Jesus' words "in Me" as part of the metaphor of the vine, "in the vine" or "in the body of Christ" under the New Covenant? I find it interesting that when Jesus spoke these words, prior to Him being glorified, (John 7:38,39) nobody had yet received the Holy Spirit and were baptized by one Spirit into one body (1 Corinthians 12:13). Jesus was addressing his disciples in the upper room here, who obviously were "Jews." I too find it interesting that in Isaiah the idea of "Israel" as a vineyard comes up. The Jews were also referred to as the "natural branches" in Romans 11.
    Last edited by mailmandan; Apr 5th 2012 at 11:18 PM.

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    Re: Ye are the branches he is the vine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eyelog View Post
    Who is the Book of Revelation written for, and why? Who is to react to it, and for what purpose?
    I am not sure if this is a sort of a heading or an actual question.... I think it is written for us so that we will have some greater revelation of what will happen.

    The body comes with Jesus in white robes on horses to Armageddon. But the Day of the Lord is not just one instant in time. The Day of the Lord includes the rapture and the triumphant return to smite those gathered about Jerusalem, followed by 1000 years which are part of that 'age', which culminates, of course, with the second great battle around Jerusalem (after the literal 1000 year reign of Christ on the Earth) and the great white throne judgment of those whose names are not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world.
    I fully agree that the day of the Lord is a 1000 year period. I think that is a good point.

    All this stuff about the church not being present means nothing to the question of whether the church will be persecuted by THE Antichrist. Of course they will.
    This is where i think I start to disagree. The reason I disagree is that I believe the church age ends with the the "caught up" or "rapture" in Thessalonians. Being caught up with the Lord in the air as opposed to returning with Him to earth (in which case we would not be in the air but could remain on the ground). I do however think that a group of believers goes through the time of Jacob's trouble. However I think for the most part they will be a believing Israel. Most of the verses you quote referring to saints would apply to anyone who believes but I think the bible makes it clear that it Israel, who in there new found belief in Jesus, Christ returns to save. When the whole world moves against Israel that is when Christ returns.

    Will we have to endure the enormous disasters associated with the pouring of His wrath uon the natural world? Well, we do today, though God saves a remnant, usually. Either we are with Him during that, or He protects us as He sees fit.
    While I agree that there is some amount of troubles we go through... I agree with Jeremiah when he says.

    Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it. Jeremiah 30:7


    The key is not whether we are appointed for wrath, because that refers to eternal punishment in the lake of fire. It could also refer to the bowls of God's wrath to be poured out on the earth. As I said, however, the Day of the Lord is not one minute, nor just 24 hours. It is a new age, after the church age. But that does not support the idea the majority of the church on earth at the time of Antichrist will escape the testing he is specifically authorized to inflict upon "the saints."

    "Saint" is hagios which means holy, or holy ones. The holy ones appear in Revelation a lot. Are they only raptured saints? No. Are they merely post-rapture converts? There is no evidence of that. Look at all the references to human "saints" in Revelation.

    Rev. 5:8 When He had taken the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.

    8:3 Another angel came and stood at the altar, holding a golden censer ; and much incense was given to him, so that he might add it to the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar which was before the throne. 4 And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, went up before God out of the angel's hand.

    11:18 "And the nations were enraged, and Your wrath came, and the time came for the dead to be judged, and the time to reward Your bond-servants the prophets and the saints and those who fear Your name, the small and the great, and to destroy those who destroy the earth."

    13:7 It was also given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them, and authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him. ...
    10 If anyone is destined for captivity, to captivity he goes ; if anyone kills with the sword, with the sword he must be killed. Here is the perseverance and the faith of the saints.

    14: 9 Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger ; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever ; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name." 12 Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.

    16:6 for they poured out the blood of saints and prophets, and You have given them blood to drink. They deserve it."

    17:6 for they poured out the blood of saints and prophets, and You have given them blood to drink. They deserve it."

    18;20 "Rejoice over her, O heaven, and you saints and apostles and prophets, because God has pronounced judgment for you against her." ... 24 "And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints and of all who have been slain on the earth."

    19;8 It was given to her to clothe herself in fine linen, bright and clean ; for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.

    20;6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection ; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years. ... 9 And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them. (MILLENIAL KINGDOM)

    22:11 "Let the one who does wrong, still do wrong ; and the one who is filthy, still be filthy ; and let the one who is righteous, still practice righteousness ; and the one who is holy, still keep himself holy."

    So, there you have it. The 'hagios' one is "the one who is holy, still keep[ing] himself holy". How so? Not taking the mark of the Beast, mon frere!
    I agree that there are many references to saints in revelation after the Church is no longer talked about. But i am compelled that it is not the church and that the church age ends before the time of Jacob's (Israel's) trouble. And before the world tries to wipe Israel off the map. And before Jesus returns to rescue Israel. Saint is a general term for anyone who believes. I think you would agree that given the scenario i put forth it would not be odd at all for a believing Israel to be referred to as saints even if the Church has been "caught up" to be with the Lord.

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    Re: Ye are the branches he is the vine.

    Quote Originally Posted by markedward View Post

    I never understood why 'Jacob's trouble' was such a buzzword to certain Christians. You're free to disagree, of course, but I had always thought it was clear that Jeremiah 30 is continuing the context of the previous chapter: 'Jacob's trouble' is the Babylonian exile mentioned in 29.28.
    I think the problem or perhaps just the oddity of Prophecy is that the bible doesn't come out and say that "this is a prophecy" or "that is a prophecy" there are many times when there are prophecies for Christ and it is just talking for ten verses or so about David and then all of a sudden something is about Christ and then it resumes talking about David. Similarly, this happens with Satan where it is talking about a king of Babylon and then all of a sudden we are given this great look at Satan and his character and then it resumes talking about the king. There seems to be a tendency to give us prophecy during a picture of the same thing happening in some minor way. Also, in general, there is some aspect that isn't fulfilled and therefore we can deduce that it is indeed prophecy. Jeremiah 30:7 says, "That day is great, so that none is like it.” The only time period that fits this description is the period of the Tribulation. This time is unparalleled in history. Also, Jesus described the Tribulation using some of the same imagery as Jeremiah. In Matthew 24:6-8, He stated that the appearance of false christs, wars and rumors of wars, famines, and earthquakes are "the beginning of birth pains."

    Ask you now, and see whether a man does travail with child? why do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness? Jeremiah 30:6

    The bible is a very interwoven book. It is confusing no doubt but i think it is also great proof that it is indeed written by God and not man. Hope that helps in some way.

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    Re: Ye are the branches he is the vine.

    Quote Originally Posted by mailmandan View Post
    Hi Jesse,

    In John 15, do you understand Jesus' words "in Me" as part of the metaphor of the vine, "in the vine" or "in the body of Christ" under the New Covenant? I find it interesting that when Jesus spoke these words, prior to Him being glorified, (John 7:38,39) nobody had yet received the Holy Spirit and were baptized by one Spirit into one body (1 Corinthians 12:13). Jesus was addressing his disciples in the upper room here, who obviously were "Jews." I too find it interesting that in Isaiah the idea of "Israel" as a vineyard comes up. The Jews were also referred to as the "natural branches" in Romans 11.
    I think that the words "in Me" and "Abide in me" are referring to the metaphor of the vine. I don't think it is referring to the "body of Christ" under the new Covenant. That is not to say that the idea of "abiding in Christ" could be completely thrown out. We see a similar idea in 1 John 1:7 "But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." This is built upon the idea we see in the Gospel of John "There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light." So we see that Jesus is the Life and the Light and we are called to live in the light as he is in the light. So there is the sense of abiding although the concept is slightly different.

    There seems to be a lot going on in Romans 11. The branches in verse 16 would seem to be about barley... because of the "firstfruits" aspect and also because of the word "lump". Which would seem to indicate dough. I am not sure if you can make dough from Olives. However then it seems to go straight into branches on an olive tree. The cultivated olive tree seems to indicate God's Chosen people Israel. Where as the wild olive seems to indicate Gentiles. Being grafted in seems to indicate faith and dependency on God. We "partake in the root and the fatness of the olive tree". However it is important to note that unlike the olive tree there is never talk of anything being grafted into the Vine. The vine seems to be a metaphor that applies strictly to Israel. (IMO)

    It is all complex and confusing but very very interesting to see these different aspects of things. I think it opens up the rest of scripture to us in interesting ways.

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    Re: Ye are the branches he is the vine.

    Quote Originally Posted by jesse View Post
    ...One more interesting thought is that, although it is not mentioned after Jesus refers to himself as the vine through all the discourses to the church... it is brought up one last time in Revelations. Still another angel, who had charge of the fire, came from the altar and called in a loud voice to him who had the sharp sickle, "Take your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of grapes from the earth's vine, because its grapes are ripe." Revelations 14:18
    Actually, the Rev 14 reference is vs. 16, not 18.Rev 14:14-16 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. (15) And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. (16) And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.Verse 18 refers to what happens to all the rest of the people on the earth on that day, with the great winepress.Rev 14:17-19 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. (18) And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. (19) And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.This winepress event is also mentioned in Rev. 19.:Rev 19:15-16 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. (16) And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

    This seems to be another reference to Israel as the church has not been mentioned since Chapter 4. It is very interesting when left in its proper context.
    That is an assumption not accepted by all bible scholars. You can't base what happens in a certain place in the book, just because of that assumption. It's also an assumption that Revelation is a chronological book, as many bible scholars disagree.

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    Re: Ye are the branches he is the vine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raybob View Post
    Actually, the Rev 14 reference is vs. 16, not 18.Rev 14:14-16 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. (15) And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. (16) And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.Verse 18 refers to what happens to all the rest of the people on the earth on that day, with the great winepress.Rev 14:17-19 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. (18) And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. (19) And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.This winepress event is also mentioned in Rev. 19.:Rev 19:15-16 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. (16) And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

    That is an assumption not accepted by all bible scholars. You can't base what happens in a certain place in the book, just because of that assumption. It's also an assumption that Revelation is a chronological book, as many bible scholars disagree.
    I am not basing it on one assumption. I have stated at least two. The fact that the church is not mentioned after chapter 4. The fact that the Vine metaphor is addressed specifically to Israel and the fact that the great tribulation is referred to as the "time of Jacob's trouble" which again would indicate Israel as the chief object of some form of trouble... perhaps even wrath. Oh that's three assumptions.

    Which Bible scholars?

  12. #12

    Re: Ye are the branches he is the vine.

    I’d like to jump in here on the discussion on Jesus teaching about the vine. I have been studying John 15:1-8 and wanted to share some insight that may add to the discussion. When I approached the text I noted first the previous chapter 14 to see what had been going on before Jesus shared about the vine. They were indeed in the Upper Room having a meal. In John’s gospel this last meal is not the Passover meal, in fact they were preparing for that meal to be the next night. This is different than Matthew (26:17-19), Mark (14.12-16) and Luke (22:7-13). Some believe that since it was an “eyewitness” account it is more accurate. We shall never know for certain. At the end of Chapter 14 Jesus says “Rise, let us be on our way.” This tells me that Jesus and the band of disciples were on the move when he taught them about the vine. Jesus taught using the vine and vineyard metaphor likely because vineyard, as you point out that Israel was commonly referred to as the vineyard, however in the Old Testament it was generally in a negative fashion. In Jeremiah 2:21, Ezekiel 19:10, Hosea 10:1 and Psalm 80:8 all speak of Israel as the vine. The vine had become a symbol of the Nation of Israel. Jesus called himself the true vine to differentiate himself from the Old Testament symbol because it was also connected to the idea of degeneration. In Jeremiah it states that the nation had “degenerate(d) and become a wild vine.” In Isaiah the vineyard was portrayed as one that had run wild. Jesus was trying to inform them that even though they were part of the Nation of Israel that fact alone would not save them; Christ teaches that faith in him is the answer.

    Your blog asked if it is accurate to apply these ideas to ourselves and I would say absolutely yes! The idea that it is through our connection to the vine (Jesus) that we can be nourished and used for the Kingdom of God is one that is appropriate for us today. I personally resonate with the idea that those of us who are connected to Christ go through pruning on a regular basis so that we can be better servants. For me it affirms that the trials aren’t for naught and there is personal benefit in the pruning. William Barclay points out in his commentary of John that there are three ways that we are useless as branches. One is if we refuse to listen to Christ at all, denying him. Second is if we listen but only give lip service to what we are called to do and third is if we accept him and during trials we turn away, abandoning him when in fact we need him most; “uselessness invites disaster.” It is that abiding in Christ that we are nourished; through connections with others we grow spiritually.

  13. #13

    Re: Ye are the branches he is the vine.

    Quote Originally Posted by MKQueenSJ View Post
    I’d like to jump in here on the discussion on Jesus teaching about the vine. I have been studying John 15:1-8 and wanted to share some insight that may add to the discussion. When I approached the text I noted first the previous chapter 14 to see what had been going on before Jesus shared about the vine. They were indeed in the Upper Room having a meal. In John’s gospel this last meal is not the Passover meal, in fact they were preparing for that meal to be the next night. This is different than Matthew (26:17-19), Mark (14.12-16) and Luke (22:7-13). Some believe that since it was an “eyewitness” account it is more accurate. We shall never know for certain. At the end of Chapter 14 Jesus says “Rise, let us be on our way.” This tells me that Jesus and the band of disciples were on the move when he taught them about the vine. Jesus taught using the vine and vineyard metaphor likely because vineyard, as you point out that Israel was commonly referred to as the vineyard, however in the Old Testament it was generally in a negative fashion. In Jeremiah 2:21, Ezekiel 19:10, Hosea 10:1 and Psalm 80:8 all speak of Israel as the vine. The vine had become a symbol of the Nation of Israel. Jesus called himself the true vine to differentiate himself from the Old Testament symbol because it was also connected to the idea of degeneration. In Jeremiah it states that the nation had “degenerate(d) and become a wild vine.” In Isaiah the vineyard was portrayed as one that had run wild. Jesus was trying to inform them that even though they were part of the Nation of Israel that fact alone would not save them; Christ teaches that faith in him is the answer.
    I agree to here. Jesus meant continue in me and not Judaism.

  14. #14

    Re: Ye are the branches he is the vine.

    When one reads Romans 9-11; it is hard to say that Israel/Judah is not the vine or olive tree, but looking carefully at Romans 11:1-24; we see that those Jews who will not recognize Yeshua as the Messiah, have been cut off from the nature olive tree while we Gentiles who by faith have acceptted Jesus while we came from a wild olive tree have been graffed into the true olive tree, as long as we continue in true faith of Christ Jesus which works by love (Galatians 5:6)


    IMO this is why I Corinthians 13 resembles greatly Galatians 5:22-23. We are told in I Corinthians 13:2 faith without charity/love makes us nothing. And when one reads of the Fruit of the Spirit it first states love and every word following it can easy help to define what true godly agape love means, just as Paul had wrote in I Corinthians 13. See also I John 3:10-18

  15. #15

    Re: Ye are the branches he is the vine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raybob View Post
    That is an assumption not accepted by all bible scholars. You can't base what happens in a certain place in the book, just because of that assumption. It's also an assumption that Revelation is a chronological book, as many bible scholars disagree.
    You can't get them to agree on what day of the week it is.

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