Where all of Jesus commands for all the people, all the time, throughout the ages?

[Brother Mark]

This is not about sacrifice in here.I think you are missing the point. Did Jesus mean those things in Matt 5? Are they for us to obey today?If Jesus said opposite to what the law said an eye for an eye, how can you say they have stayed the same?

Oh I got the point. I just don't believe your point is valid. For instance, the OT tells us to offer a sacrifice. The new testament teaches us how to do that.

Jesus didn't say the opposite of what the law said. He was dealing with how the law was enforced. Here's what Jesus said concerning the law...

Matt 5:17

17 "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.
NASU

So first, he did not come to abolish the law! To say he taught the opposite of the law doesn't do Him justice. Also, he said this concerning those that would teach against the law...

Matt 5:19
19 "Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
NASU

I don't think we want to say that Jesus is the least in the kingdom of heaven by saying that he annuls one of the commandments.

Matt 5:18
18 "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.
NASU

Now, I do think a case can be made that "all is accomplished" might be the cross. However, there is much left to accomplish for we are all still here and the new earth and new Jerusalem is not yet built.

Also, Paul tells us that we live by the spirit of the law and not the letter.

If one wants to understand the law and the teachings of Jesus, we need to look a bit deeper than just a few verses here and there.

[Brother Mark]

These commandments are for all disciples for all time!


Where were the teachings of Jesus in Matt5 taught in the old covenant?

Yes. Jesus was explaining the OT in Matthew 5. Here's something Jesus said that I quoted in the previous post.

Matt 5:17

17 "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.
NASU

If you wants to teach Matt 5, we must also use this verse to show that Jesus wasn't preaching against the OT.

[Arrow]

Yes. Jesus was explaining the OT in Matthew 5. Here's something Jesus said that I quoted in the previous post.

Matt 5:17

17 "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.
NASU

If you wants to teach Matt 5, we must also use this verse to show that Jesus wasn't preaching against the OT.

This doesn't say where they were taught in the old covenant.

[Brother Mark]

This doesn't say where they were taught in the old covenant.

But it does say Jesus didn't come to do away with the law.

What part of the sermon on the mount is outside the command "Love your neighbor as yourself"?

Lev 19:18
18 ' You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the sons of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself; I am the Lord.
NASU

[Arrow]

Did Jesus mean those things in Matt 5? Are they for us to obey today?If Jesus said opposite to what the law said an eye for an eye, how can you say they have stayed the same?

Oh I got the point. I just don't believe your point is valid. For instance, the OT tells us to offer a sacrifice. The new testament teaches us how to do that.

Jesus didn't say the opposite of what the law said. He was dealing with how the law was enforced. Here's what Jesus said concerning the law...

Matt 5:17

17 "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.
NASU

So first, he did not come to abolish the law! To say he taught the opposite of the law doesn't do Him justice. Also, he said this concerning those that would teach against the law...

Matt 5:19
19 "Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
NASU

I don't think we want to say that Jesus is the least in the kingdom of heaven by saying that he annuls one of the commandments.

Matt 5:18
18 "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.
NASU

Now, I do think a case can be made that "all is accomplished" might be the cross. However, there is much left to accomplish for we are all still here and the new earth and new Jerusalem is not yet built.

Also, Paul tells us that we live by the spirit of the law and not the letter.

If one wants to understand the law and the teachings of Jesus, we need to look a bit deeper than just a few verses here and there.

If we look at the questions, we can see that you supply info, but don't answer the questions. You make some lovely interesting points in this last quote, much I agree with, but I feel by going down that road, we'll miss the questions posed to you above. Can you answer please?

[Brother Mark]

If we look at the questions, we can see that you supply info, but don't answer the questions. You make some lovely interesting points in this last quote, much I agree with, but I feel by going down that road, we'll miss the questions posed to you above. Can you answer please?

Well, if we exclude parts of scripture, we can make it say anything can't we? Better to use the whole counsel of God instead of just parts of it to make a point that doesn't fit the rest of it.


Perhaps you missed my post above so I'll post again. What part of Matt 5 does not line up with the command to love your neighbor as yourself?

Lev 19:18
18 ' You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the sons of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself; I am the Lord.
NASU

[Arrow]

Yes. Jesus was explaining the OT in Matthew 5. Here's something Jesus said that I quoted in the previous post.

Matt 5:17

17 "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.
NASU

If you wants to teach Matt 5, we must also use this verse to show that Jesus wasn't preaching against the OT.

I never said Jesus ever preached against the OT. Let me be specific. Where does the OT teach that one should not give an eye for an eye in the OT? Are you winking at me because you are being devious? Just wondering with love.

[Arrow]

Did Jesus mean those things in Matt 5? Are they for us to obey today?If Jesus said opposite to what the law said an eye for an eye, how can you say they have stayed the same?

But it does say Jesus didn't come to do away with the law.

What part of the sermon on the mount is outside the command "Love your neighbor as yourself"?

Lev 19:18
18 ' You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the sons of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself; I am the Lord.
NASU

You perhaps don't read my posts. I never said Jesus came to do away with the law! I put the questions in here again, see if you can answer?

Perhaps you can put the two commands next to each other,from the law,' eye for an eye', and what Jesus said about them. Are they the same? If you close one eye, you may miss it in love.

[Arrow]

Well, if we exclude parts of scripture, we can make it say anything can't we?

Who is excluding parts of scripture?

[Brother Mark]

I never said Jesus ever preached against the OT. Let me be specific. Where does the OT teach that one should not give an eye for an eye in the OT? Are you winking at me because you are being devious? Just wondering with love.

Lev 19:18
18 ' You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the sons of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself; I am the Lord.
NASU

What does "you shall not take vengeance" mean? Is one taking vengeance if he takes an eye for an eye? Vengeance is the Lords and that is left to those in authority to do. Jesus said in the Sermon on the mount this...

Matt 5:38-39

38 " You have heard that it was said, 'AN EYE FOR AN EYE, AND A TOOTH FOR A TOOTH.'
NASU

Jesus was teaching people that what they had heard was not correct. It was not for them to take an eye for an eye. He was speaking against what had been taught NOT what had been written.

Ex 21:23-25
23 "But if there is any further injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.
NASU

Moses was given the command. He was the authority. This is the law of Moses. Moses was then to appoint the penalty. It was never meant for an individual to take vengeance. That is the job of God and he does so through the government.

So nothing in Jesus sermon on the mount does away with "eye for an eye" he just does away with the idea that an individual ever had that right! What was being taught was wrong. But what was written was right.

The OT did teach not to take vengeance and to love one's neighbor just as taught in Matt 5.

Lev 19:18
18 ' You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the sons of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself; I am the Lord.
NASU

What part of Matt 5 falls outside that command? Or what part of Matt 5:33-48 cannot be taught from Lev. 19:18? Lev. 19:18 may have been one of his source verses for the sermon.

[awestruckchild]

I would like to know what you guys think of the verse that says He gave us some laws that were not good for us?

Because I take this to mean that He gave the laws that were not good for us because our hearts were so hard. More like....I allowed you some laws that were not good for you. And that they weren't good for us because they weren't given because they were good, but because we were bad.

It is when people break a law that ANOTHER law has to be written. And then they break that one, and ANOTHER has to be written.

God did not intend for Israel to have a human government but they asked for this, and He said, because you have asked for a king like all of the other nations, I'll allow it, but know this - it won't be good for you.

I don't know how we get into such a mess. But there IS no law against love. Love is shown to be love or to be a lie by what the motive of our heart is.

I think that those who do not want to do something Jesus said we must to follow Him, should then not do it.

I think those who DO want to do something Jesus said to do, should then do it.

If someone prefers to think that Jesus did not mean certain of His words for them, no one will convince them otherwise.

If another person thinks every one of His words were for them, no one can convince them otherwise.

But we don't have much time, so let whoever is set aside for the Lord remain set aside for Him.

If we just followed Him, these wranglings would disappear. He is the one we are supposed to follow. Receiving the Spirit is the only thing that makes this possible, because you cannot follow Him if you cannot hear His voice. It is difficult enough when you CAN hear His voice, because we begin to try to judge His voice by what the world says, instead of the other way around.

I would only caution against using the OT to trump the words of Jesus. The reasons for this are because we know that He gave us some laws that were not good for us, and also, because it is HE who uncovered for us things hidden from the foundation of the world.

If they had not listened to Mary when she said: Do everything He tells you, there would have been no miracle. Let the men who want to do everything He tells us, do so.
Let the men who prefer another way, to do so. There may have been some men who said, no, this doesn't make sense to do what He is saying, so I won't. But thank God there were some of them who, even though it sounded bizarre, DID what He said and received the miracle and got the wine.

[Noeb]

I will answer here for myself to clarify, and I would have changed it by editing the OP but I am not allowed.

In a sense, Jesus will judge the Christians by His word.

All the people actually means all the Christians, and I know I should have made it clearer in the OP.Does this change your answer?

Yes.

Do you agree with Mark, that;' Jesus didn't do away with eye for an eye.'? I disagree, I believe He did away with this specific law.

Yes, I agree Jesus didn't do away with eye for an eye, for the same reasons Mark said.

[Noeb]

Are you saying these these words of Jesus are not commandments but rather encouragements? Do we need to obey them?

When Jesus said in Mat 5 "but I say unto you,......" are commandments.

Mat 5:21 and 27 are still commandments fulfilled in the greatest commandment to Love as sons of God.
Mat 5:33 is a commandment but Jesus clarified its meaning.
Mat 5:43 was never a commandment.

[Noeb]

What part of Matt 5 does not line up with the command to love your neighbor as yourself?

Mat 5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.

[Noeb]

I would like to know what you guys think of the verse that says He gave us some laws that were not good for us?

Where are you talking about?