Where all of Jesus commands for all the people, all the time, throughout the ages?

[dan]

I can see nothing what you've said going along with what's in this tread.
Are you being respectful by trying to create a new thread within an established one?

So, this isn't a command given by Jesus in the Bible?

MT 26:52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.
MT 26:53 Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?
MT 26:54 But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?

Maybe you have a case here. I think you should report me immediately.

[Noeb]

do you agree, eye for an eye in the law is about government?

Not in the slightest, as I've said all along. Jesus never used the word government

Jethro....
Exo 18:19 Hearken now unto my voice, I will give thee counsel, and God shall be with thee: Be thou for the people to God-ward, that thou mayest bring the causes unto God:
Exo 18:20 And thou shalt teach them ordinances and laws, and shalt shew them the way wherein they must walk, and the work that they must do.
Exo 18:21 Moreover thou shalt provide out of all the people able men, such as fear God, men of truth, hating covetousness; and place such over them, to be rulers of thousands, and rulers of hundreds, rulers of fifties, and rulers of tens:
Exo 18:22 And let them judge the people at all seasons: and it shall be, that every great matter they shall bring unto thee, but every small matter they shall judge: so shall it be easier for thyself, and they shall bear the burden with thee.

Exo 21:6 Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.

Exo 21:22 If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.
Exo 21:23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,
Exo 21:24 Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,
Exo 21:25 Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.

God....
Exo 21:29 But if the ox were wont to push with his horn in time past, and it hath been testified to his owner, and he hath not kept him in, but that he hath killed a man or a woman; the ox shall be stoned, and his owner also shall be put to death.

Deu 19:15 One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.
Deu 19:16 If a false witness rise up against any man to testify against him that which is wrong;
Deu 19:17 Then both the men, between whom the controversy is, shall stand before the LORD, before the priests and the judges, which shall be in those days;
Deu 19:18 And the judges shall make diligent inquisition: and, behold, if the witness be a false witness, and hath testified falsely against his brother;
Deu 19:19 Then shall ye do unto him, as he had thought to have done unto his brother: so shalt thou put the evil away from among you.
Deu 19:20 And those which remain shall hear, and fear, and shall henceforth commit no more any such evil among you.
Deu 19:21 And thine eye shall not pity; but life shall go for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.

We have judges, testifying, and witnesses, and you say eye for an eye is not in the context of Government? How do you do that?

Can you see Jesus wasn't changing eye for an eye?

You add the word government in, and leave out the context, so far refusing to take into account 'turn to him the other cheek also.'

I've explained that twice already. I didn't leave out the context. In fact I paraphrased two chapters. Look,

Psa 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.

How's the Lawgiver going to come and change the law that's already perfect?

Repeatedly Jesus said,
you've heard it said, but it's either
-written, there's more to the interpretation
-written, it's the wrong interpretation
-not written, the law doesn't say that at all

Regarding your question, Jesus said
-written, it's the wrong interpretation
You don't apply eye for an eye to your personal life.

[tea]

Mod hat on:

Enough with the personal attacks by insinuation and snarky comments. Try again by focusing on the scriptures and issues at hand please.

If you have any questions about this feel free to start a thread in C2M. --BrianW

[tea]

This is what I said

I've said all along. Jesus never used the word government

You answer by giveing me about 16 verses from Ex.
I can't see how this relates to Jesus not using the word government in Mt5 regarding an eye for an eye.

[U]
You don't apply eye for an eye to your personal life.

You leave out the context, so far refusing to take into account 'turn to him the other cheek also.'

Jesus is He who says;'turn to him the other cheek also.' Not me.

Is it because you don't want to obey Him that you say ;'You don't apply eye for an eye to your personal life.'?

I don't read that Jesus was teaching His disciples, and they they turned around and said, 'this is not for us'?

[Noeb]

This is what I said

I've said all along. Jesus never used the word government

You answer by giveing me about 16 verses from Ex.
I can't see how this relates to Jesus not using the word government in Mt5 regarding an eye for an eye.

He is clarifying and correcting. States what has been said and believed. He does not say "it is written". He is talking about tradition "by them of old time" and was said by men, believed by men and acted out by men. This is confirmed in that, what he says was said, is not what the law says but rather rabbinical teaching and how they were behaving.

Mat 5:21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time,
written
Thou shalt not kill;
said about what was written
and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:

They missed the spirit of the law, so Jesus tells them what they missed.
Jesus' clarification.
Mat 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Mat 5:23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;
Mat 5:24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.
Mat 5:25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.
Mat 5:26 Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.



Another.
Mat 5:27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time,
written
Thou shalt not commit adultery:
don't commit the act of adultery

Now, this is true, but they missed the spirit of the law, so Jesus tells them what they missed.
Jesus' correction.
Mat 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
Mat 5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
Mat 5:30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
Mat 5:31 It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:
Mat 5:32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.



Another.
Mat 5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said,
written
Thou shalt love thy neighbour,
not written
and hate thine enemy.
Jesus' correction.
Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Mat 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
Mat 5:46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
Mat 5:47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.



So when he says
Mat 5:38 Ye have heard that it hath been said,
written
An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
applied universally

Jesus' correction.
Mat 5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
Mat 5:40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also.
Mat 5:41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
Mat 5:42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.


Still, I gave you the passages in the law for eye for an eye, showing it's context was government not peoples personal lives. The law never told people to carry out eye for an eye themselves, personally. It would have contradicted the law to do so. It is impossible for Jesus to have been saying eye for an eye was how the law said people should act in their personal lives. So it is impossible that Jesus is changing it.

[Noeb]

Another point you missed in my previous posts.

Psa 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.

Jesus said (paraphrase)
Concerning the law I am here to hold it up. It's here until heaven and earth pass away.

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

How can Jesus (God) change the law that is perfect and that he said he would not change? The word fulfill means fill up, to make replete. Which is what we see Jesus begin to do here in Matthew 5-7. Before he began he prefaced it by stating he was not here to change it but show it perfectly.


"except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees"
Jesus started off by saying what was said by them of old time and is held traditionally by the scribes and Pharisees is lacking. He then proceeded to clarify, make replete, the true meaning of the law.
People think Matt 5:20 is about having the righteousness of God, but it's clearly not. The chapters are about how to behave in a more righteous manner than just outwardly.

So if you read the chapters without the understanding that Jesus started off with, that the righteousness taught is not true inner righteousness, you'll think he is changing the law when what he is doing is making it replete, filling it up, showing its true meaning. Eye for an eye never meant for you to take an eye for an eye. That's a false teaching.

[dan]

Mod hat on:

Enough with the personal attacks by insinuation and snarky comments. Try again by focusing on the scriptures and issues at hand please.

If you have any questions about this feel free to start a thread in C2M. --BrianW

[tea]

You first say it is written by quoting it from Ex

Exo 21:24 Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,

Then you contradict yourself by saying

He is clarifying and correcting. States what has been said and believed. He does not say "it is written". He is talking about tradition ".

Now which one you gonna stick with?

[Noeb]

You first say it is written by quoting it from Ex

Then you contradict yourself by saying


Now which one you gonna stick with?

There's no contradiction. When Jesus referenced eye for an eye, he referenced its meaning in the governmental context found in the law where eye for an eye was written, in contrast to the scribes and pharisees teaching and tradition.
In the law where eye for an eye is found "We have judges, testifying, and witnesses"
"I gave you the passages in the law for eye for an eye, showing its context was government, not peoples personal lives. The law never told people to carry out eye for an eye themselves, personally." as tradition taught.

I've shown you in Matthew 5 that Jesus is "clarifying and correcting. States what has been said and believed. He does not say "it is written". He is talking about tradition"

Jesus says to Israelis under the law,
I have not come to do away with the law.
Not one jot or one tittle will change in the law til heaven and earth pass way.
Your righteousness must exceed the righteousness of the scribes and pharisees.
They say.......but I say
They say.......but I say
They say.......but I say

We must read Mathew 5-7 in that context and with that understanding. That's why Jesus started the way he did. The JFB Commentary says

"Mat_5:17-48. Identity of these principles with those of the ancient economy; in contrast with the reigning traditional teaching."

"Mat 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees — The superiority to the Pharisaic righteousness here required is plainly in kind, not degree; for all Scripture teaches that entrance into God’s kingdom, whether in its present or future stage, depends, not on the degree of our excellence in anything, but solely on our having the character itself which God demands. Our righteousness, then - if it is to contrast with the outward and formal righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees - must be inward, vital, spiritual. Some, indeed, of the scribes and Pharisees themselves might have the very righteousness here demanded; but our Lord is speaking, not of persons, but of the system they represented and taught."

If you don't agree, we will just have to agree to disagree.

[amazzin]

Admin note

Further insistance in this rude behavior WILL result on your accounts being restricted.

Stop it

[tea]

He is clarifying and correcting. States what has been said and believed. He does not say "it is written". He is talking about tradition "by them of old time" and was said by men, believed by men and acted out by men.

Me saying you contradict yourself in my last post is related to this what you say above in this post as well.

You say it was said by men, but actually by you quoting it above, and clearly seen for all to read in Ex21, ;,an eye for an eye' was not the teachings of the pharisees, but in fact a written law from God.

Can't you see that?

So which is it? Is it the written law that Jesus was talking about, ['eye for an eye']
Or
What you say above, just said by men.

Jesus used the words, 'you have heard it said', as people in those days could not read, so they had to hear it from someone who could.

But clearly, an eye for an eye, as you quoted, is a writtten law.

Let's get past this please, you and Mark have been missing this point from the outset.

Many blessings

[BrianW]

I'm going to but in here.

A person can only explain and then clarify their interpretation/opinion so many times until they start to feel like a hamster on a wheel. A whole of of effort being made and getting no where.

If you don't understand then sometimes taking a deep breath, praying about it rereading what has already been written and checking it against scripture is the way to go.

Not a mod statement but instead an observation meant to help.

[Noeb]

Let me put it this way. I've said this in my long post but let me make it short and sweet. The sermon on the mount is about personal behavior. Traditon said eye for an eye. Jesus said that is wrong.

[BrianW]

I agree Noeb and see nothing wrong with how you've tried to explain your position.

[dan]

I don't think you guys have looked closely enough. Let's try it again.

Here is the original scripture:

DEUT 19:21 And thine eye shall not pity; [but] life [shall go] for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.

But Jesus said:

MT 5:38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
MT 5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
MT 5:40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also.
MT 5:41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
MT 5:42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
MT 5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
MT 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
MT 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
MT 5:46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
MT 5:47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
MT 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Jesus modified eye for an eye and tooth for a tooth, but not the rest.

You may be reading too much into it.

He never changed life for a life, hand for hand, or foot for foot.

Nowhere in the NT or the OT does it say, "allow others to murder you or maim you".

This is why self-defense laws exist in their present form.

Uh...at least in the U.S.