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Thread: Women speaking in the church

  1. #46
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    Re: Women speaking in the church

    Quote Originally Posted by Colight View Post
    We are talking about the church..
    Not political figures of Israel.
    All because some gal was a judge in Israel does not nullify what Paul wrote to the Church.
    By chance did you read the article I posted in post #33?
    Isaiah 6:8 "Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?" And I said, "Here am I. Send me!" We should always be willing to do God's bidding, seek ye first the kingdom of God.

    I use Linux because I don't like Windows

  2. #47
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    Re: Women speaking in the church

    IN Answer to....

    Quote Originally Posted by uric3 View Post
    By chance did you read the article I posted in post #33?
    The authors entire premise is wrong.
    He is trying to make a case for women to not have to follow Paul's commands regarding the church.


    These passages are clear in their subject being the operation of the church.
    1 Timothy 2
    Verse 8 sets the tone of speaking about the Church,.


    '8 Therefore I want the men in every place to pray, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and dissension.

    To avoid wrath and dissension, Paul then goes into how it is done. By getting the gals in check. Verses 9-15.

    No showing off fancy costly new clothes.
    No fancy hair styles with things that stand out and draw attention.
    Cover the skin.
    For that will get the other gals all jealous, and soon the gossip circles start rolling.

    This is all about the order IN THE CHURCH.
    What the gals wear out side of the Church or in the home, Paul is not addressing here.

    Then in Timothy 3 he goes into what men are to be used for church leadership.


    To say this suddenly applies to the home instead of the Church, is to ignore its context.
    ( Though a silent woman at home would make for a peaceful home IMHO, also I like it when my wife is decked out in fancy clothes and hair but those she is not to do when we are in church.)

    In the context of the church Paul issues 3 Commands

    Command "A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness."
    Command 2 "I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man"
    command 3 "but to remain quiet."

    The author is twisting scripture when he says this is not directed at Church service.


    1 Corinthians 14:34-35

    The author is completely trying to gloss over the fact Paul specifically addressed the women to be silent.

    Paul gave us that COMMAND 3 Times, he was quite passionate about it,

    Command "The women are to keep silent in the churches"
    Backs up the command:"for they are not permitted to speak"
    Then backs it up again: "for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in church"

    Paul is telling us 3 times in two verses that women are not to speak in church.
    It does not get any more plain than that.
    If God thru the writings of Paul gives us a command 3 times we had best listen, and not make any excuses.


    Again the author is twisting scripture.
    So I would have to reject his conclusions.

  3. #48
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    Re: Women speaking in the church

    I will gladly follow this study of yours (as long as you don't let a woman lead this. Just kidding) I have not totally made up (i.e. solidified or set in stone) my opinions on this issue. I have my own personal thoughts on the issue but will use what ever I learn in this study to adjust my opinions accordingly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Watchman View Post
    “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; ..."
    A couple of thoughts though:
    Gen 1:26-28. A minor point I see is that even though it is obvious that God intended to make both male and female when He created man; when He first mentions creating them He put them both within the single word man. I wonder if He saw as big a distinction between male and female as we do and in the same ways as we do.

    1. Man is incomplete, or inadequate, by himself.
    You say that man in incomplete by himself yet when Jesus had a discussion about marriage with His disciples He mentions that there are some who make themselves eunuchs for the sake of devoting themselves to serving God. He even considered it a gift as good as marriage.

    Mat 19:11 But He said to them, "Not all men can accept this statement, but only those to whom it has been given.
    Mat 19:12 "For there are eunuchs who were born that way from their mother's womb; and there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men; and there are also eunuchs who made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. He who is able to accept this, let him accept it."


    5. God made man before woman, but that is not an indicator of inequality, rather, an indicator that man, alone, is in a less than desirable condition.
    The idea of inequality between the sexes only exists because there is discontent in the very different roles and abilities God originally created us to fill and serve in. There was no discontent prior to the fall yet after the fall discontent abounds when we compare the different roles men and women have been created to fill. Paul writes that man is the head of woman and Christ is head of man.

    1 Cor. 11:3 “But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ.”
    Eph. 5:23 “For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church, He Himself being the Savior of the body.”

    I do believe there are different positions we are given in regard to each other but also that they are more in line with our responsibilities in service toward one rather than in a dominion ruling sort of thing. But we shall see how long my opinion will survive through this study.

    Regardless; the greatest in the kingdom is the servant whether that servant is a man or a woman.
    "He's wild, you know. Not like a tame lion."
    C.S. Lewis, "The Lion, The Witch and the Wardrobe."

    "Oh, but sometimes the sun stays hidden for years"
    "Sometimes the sky rains night after night, When will it clear?"

    "But our Hope endures the worst of conditions"
    "It's more than our optimism, Let the earth quake"
    "Our Hope is unchanged"

    Emmanuel, God is with us
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    And this is our hope
    "Our Hope Endures" Natalie Grant

  4. #49
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    Re: Women speaking in the church

    Quote Originally Posted by Old man View Post
    I will gladly follow this study of yours (as long as you don't let a woman lead this. Just kidding) I have not totally made up (i.e. solidified or set in stone) my opinions on this issue. I have my own personal thoughts on the issue but will use what ever I learn in this study to adjust my opinions accordingly.

    A couple of thoughts though:
    Gen 1:26-28. A minor point I see is that even though it is obvious that God intended to make both male and female when He created man; when He first mentions creating them He put them both within the single word man. I wonder if He saw as big a distinction between male and female as we do and in the same ways as we do.
    Ok...won't change my screen name to Watchwoman, then! It is always good to be open to incorporating new things learned into one's pov, provided those things are true. We're all growing...hopefully. I believe God intended the differences between male and female to be pronounced, but in a complementary way rather than in some sort of competitive manner. His use of marriages for illustrative purposes in scripture seems, to me, to bear that out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Old Man
    You say that man in incomplete by himself yet when Jesus had a discussion about marriage with His disciples He mentions that there are some who make themselves eunuchs for the sake of devoting themselves to serving God. He even considered it a gift as good as marriage.

    Mat 19:11 But He said to them, "Not all men can accept this statement, but only those to whom it has been given.
    Mat 19:12 "For there are eunuchs who were born that way from their mother's womb; and there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men; and there are also eunuchs who made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. He who is able to accept this, let him accept it."
    Yep, He sure did. However, the fact that God created woman in response to His pronouncement that it is not good for man to be alone is deeply significant, yes?


    Quote Originally Posted by Old Man
    The idea of inequality between the sexes only exists because there is discontent in the very different roles and abilities God originally created us to fill and serve in. There was no discontent prior to the fall yet after the fall discontent abounds when we compare the different roles men and women have been created to fill. Paul writes that man is the head of woman and Christ is head of man.

    1 Cor. 11:3 “But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ.”
    Eph. 5:23 “For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church, He Himself being the Savior of the body.”
    I agree that discontent with God's intent is a reason for the quest for equality between genders; however, discontent with the level of understanding is, IMO, what spawned this study. We will look at the meaning of head when we get to the passages that use the term.

    Quote Originally Posted by Old Man
    I do believe there are different positions we are given in regard to each other but also that they are more in line with our responsibilities in service toward one rather than in a dominion ruling sort of thing. But we shall see how long my opinion will survive through this study.

    Regardless; the greatest in the kingdom is the servant whether that servant is a man or a woman.
    Good thoughts! I suspect your opinion will do just fine, sir!

    blessings,

    Watchman
    Sunset remembers Eden...sunrise prophesies its return.

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    Re: Women speaking in the church

    Quote Originally Posted by uric3 View Post
    By chance did you read the article I posted in post #33?
    Yes, and it is a well written article. The author's purpose is to make burgers, if needed, out of a sacred cow. It is not to find loopholes, or to nullify Paul's teaching. Rather, it is to look beneath what we've traditionally been taught and to better harmonize the scriptures while using them in proper context. The idea that there is a difference between what women can do and say for a couple of hours on Sunday and an hour on Wednesday when in certain places with others, and what they can do the rest of the time is preposterous. 'Going to church' is a mistaken idea, since we are added by God and are the church 24/7. Meetings do have scriptural basis, but not the way we "do" them! (But that is another thread!) Context is often completely ignored, or tossed out the window when playing prooftext poker. But we won't play that here...at least, some of us won't!

    I looked around on that site a bit and realized I've visited it before. The links provided to bro's Cecil Hooks', Ed Fudge's, Jay Guin's, and Al Maxey's websites are also good!

    blessings,

    Watchman
    Sunset remembers Eden...sunrise prophesies its return.

  6. #51
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    Re: Women speaking in the church

    Quote Originally Posted by Colight View Post
    In the context of the church Paul issues 3 Commands

    Command "A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness."
    Command 2 "I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man"
    command 3 "but to remain quiet."

    The author is twisting scripture when he says this is not directed at Church service.


    1 Corinthians 14:34-35

    The author is completely trying to gloss over the fact Paul specifically addressed the women to be silent.

    Paul gave us that COMMAND 3 Times, he was quite passionate about it,

    Command "The women are to keep silent in the churches"
    Backs up the command:"for they are not permitted to speak"
    Then backs it up again: "for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in church"

    Paul is telling us 3 times in two verses that women are not to speak in church.
    It does not get any more plain than that.
    If God thru the writings of Paul gives us a command 3 times we had best listen, and not make any excuses.


    Again the author is twisting scripture.
    So I would have to reject his conclusions.
    We will examine these passages in detail when we get to them. You will have a hard time making a cogent argument that 'in church' means the assembly! Perhaps an etymologic look at the word, church, would be beneficial...and we'll get there at the appropriate time.

    W
    Sunset remembers Eden...sunrise prophesies its return.

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    Re: Women speaking in the church

    Quote Originally Posted by Watchman View Post
    We will examine these passages in detail when we get to them. You will have a hard time making a cogent argument that 'in church' means the assembly! Perhaps an etymologic look at the word, church, would be beneficial...and we'll get there at the appropriate time.

    W
    To me renaming things from church to assembly, would not settle my spirit when it comes to women preachers.
    They would still be in violation of the commands that the Spirit thru Paul set forth.

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    Re: Women speaking in the church

    Quote Originally Posted by Colight View Post
    To me renaming things from church to assembly, would not settle my spirit when it comes to women preachers.
    They would still be in violation of the commands that the Spirit thru Paul set forth.
    Perhaps, then, we need a thread that examines what in church, or in the church actually means? We have many traditions that appear, on the surface, to have scriptural bases; however, many of them are simply traditions founded upon out-of-context use of scripture and mistaken ideas.

    W

    PS: I'm not disputing that Paul, by inspiration of the Holy Spirit, issued commands. I"m simply disputing some of the commonly held understandings of said commands. I'll give the reasons and support for disputing as we study through each passage, but not before then. I'm not dodging answering...just trying to keep this thread from becoming a chaotic, disorganized mess.
    Sunset remembers Eden...sunrise prophesies its return.

  9. #54
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    Re: Women speaking in the church

    Quote Originally Posted by Watchman View Post
    Perhaps, then, we need a thread that examines what in church, or in the church actually means? We have many traditions that appear, on the surface, to have scriptural bases; however, many of them are simply traditions founded upon out-of-context use of scripture and mistaken ideas.

    W

    PS: I'm not disputing that Paul, by inspiration of the Holy Spirit, issued commands. I"m simply disputing some of the commonly held understandings of said commands. I'll give the reasons and support for disputing as we study through each passage, but not before then. I'm not dodging answering...just trying to keep this thread from becoming a chaotic, disorganized mess.
    Yet I am quoting the words of Paul, not " commonly held understandings of said commands." or "Traditions" of various denominational sects or customs.

    So would not bringing in " commonly held understandings of said commands" before you have established the truth.
    In it self be a chaotic and disorganized mess.
    I would say,..Start with the truth first.
    Which is why I refer back to the author Paul, instead of eye glazing and brain cell destroying discussions of "in church" vs "in the church"

  10. #55
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    Re: Women speaking in the church

    Quote Originally Posted by Colight View Post
    Yet I am quoting the words of Paul, not " commonly held understandings of said commands." or "Traditions" of various denominational sects or customs.

    So would not bringing in " commonly held understandings of said commands" before you have established the truth.
    In it self be a chaotic and disorganized mess.
    I would say,..Start with the truth first.
    Which is why I refer back to the author Paul, instead of eye glazing and brain cell destroying discussions of "in church" vs "in the church"
    Two points you seem to be missing. First, you are quoting Paul...but you have arbitrarily assigned both meaning and context to his words. Second, the idea of going to church, or going to worship services, is foreign to scripture...it is a tradition that you are superimposing over scripture in an effort to prove your point. That dog won't hunt. The church is the church all the time...whether gathered in assembly or not. Consequently, one cannot simply say, "women are forbidden to speak in the assembly."

    I'm operating directly from scripture and am doing so in an organized fashion. Cool your jets a bit and read along. We'll get to your pet prooftexts in due time. I have chosen to start with the truths in the OT...after laying the groundwork, then we'll get to the relevant truths in the NT.

    W
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    Re: Women speaking in the church

    Continued from post #41

    In post 41 we saw that God created man and woman as equals, but He created them with differences. In Genesis 3, the trouble began.

    Now the serpent was more cunning than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said to the woman, “Has God indeed said, ‘You shall not eat of every tree of the garden’?” And the woman said to the serpent, “We may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden; but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, ‘You shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die.’” Then the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”
    So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate. She also gave to her husband with her, and he ate. Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves coverings.

    And they heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden. Then the LORD God called to Adam and said to him, “Where are you?” So he said, “I heard Your voice in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; and I hid myself.” And He said, “Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree of which I commanded you that you should not eat?” Then the man said, “The woman whom You gave to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I ate.” And the LORD God said to the woman, “What is this you have done?” The woman said, “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.”

    So the LORD God said to the serpent: “Because you have done this, You are cursed more than all cattle, And more than every beast of the field; On your belly you shall go, And you shall eat dust All the days of your life. And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her Seed; He shall bruise your head, And you shall bruise His heel.”

    To the woman He said: “I will greatly multiply your sorrow and your conception; In pain you shall bring forth children; Your desire shall be for your husband, And he shall rule over you.”

    Then to Adam He said, “Because you have heeded the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree of which I commanded you, saying, ‘You shall not eat of it’: “Cursed is the ground for your sake; In toil you shall eat of it All the days of your life. Both thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you, And you shall eat the herb of the field. In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread Till you return to the ground, For out of it you were taken; For dust you are And to dust you shall return.”

    And Adam called his wife’s name Eve, because she was the mother of all living. Also for Adam and his wife the LORD God made tunics of skin, and clothed them.
    Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”— therefore the LORD God sent him out of the garden of Eden to till the ground from which he was taken. So He drove out the man; and He placed cherubim at the east of the garden of Eden, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life.



    We all know this chapter as describing the fall of man. In it, God cursed all of creation. His actions included cursing the serpent with a prophetic curse, multiplying Eve's sorrow, conception, and child-birth pain, and causing the woman to desire to rule the man, but giving the man rule over her. Adam’s curse involved having to work hard for his food…it would no longer simply be supplied (and he had to deal with the strife of marriage!) The curses found in Genesis 3 are not commands and should not be taught as commands. They are curses that will one day be abolished. Won’t that be a glorious day?!?!? The views of woman in creation and the fall are easily reconciled with the NT passages re: the role of women, and we’re almost there (to the NT.) But first, I’d like to point out, in the next post, some of the ways God used women in the OT.

    blessings,

    W
    Sunset remembers Eden...sunrise prophesies its return.

  12. #57
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    Re: Women speaking in the church

    Quote Originally Posted by Watchman View Post
    We all know this chapter as describing the fall of man. In it, God cursed all of creation. His actions included cursing the serpent with a prophetic curse, multiplying Eve's sorrow, conception, and child-birth pain, and causing the woman to desire to rule the man, but giving the man rule over her. Adam’s curse involved having to work hard for his food…it would no longer simply be supplied (and he had to deal with the strife of marriage!) The curses found in Genesis 3 are not commands and should not be taught as commands. They are curses that will one day be abolished. Won’t that be a glorious day?!?!? The views of woman in creation and the fall are easily reconciled with the NT passages re: the role of women, and we’re almost there (to the NT.) But first, I’d like to point out, in the next post, some of the ways God used women in the OT.
    Hey Brother Watchman! Before going further, just wanted to you ask you to check out my post on the previous page. It's the last one.

    This study looks good so far. One thing that might be interesting to discuss is would be the authority issue. Is it really part of the curse? It seems to me that part of the curse is the desire to rule but that Eve is being reminded that her husband would rule. The reason I bring this up is that when Paul talks about authority in the NT, he refers back to creation order, which is prior to the fall. And as you have pointed out, the curse is the curse, not a command. (Hope I am not getting ahead here.)

    Grace to you and keep on! Like you, I think there is much misunderstanding on all this, perhaps unlike you or some others, I think there is misunderstanding on both sides of the issue. Being the fun loving trouble maker that I am at times, I love pointing out the OT examples to those that are hard core anti-woman speaking types and I like pointing out the NT commands to those that are women are called to any and all positions men are called to. Maybe later in the thread I'll expound on it some more.

    Anyway, please continue. I am quite interested!

    Grace to you,

    Mark
    Matt 9:13
    13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
    NASU

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    Re: Women speaking in the church

    Quote Originally Posted by Watchman
    1. Man and woman are created in God’s image.
    2. Both are to rule over creation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Mark View Post
    Amen! We see some feminine attributes in God such as "birthing", nurturing, comforting, helping, etc. Man and woman together make a far better image of God than either one by his or herself. I also think it telling that Jesus, when he was lamenting over Jerusalem, used a mother hen as a metaphor for his feelings. The attributes of God are spread about in men and women. ...I think it worth pointing out that Eve was created in the garden while Adam was created in the wilderness and taken to the garden. I think this helps us understand why men are longing for adventure and women for security. We were each made in different places for different things. However, we were both made to rule.

    Howdy Brother Mark,

    I read your post, and thought I'd replied to it...guess that's what I get for thinking! Your statement, re: we were both made to rule, makes me think of the progressive environmental movement, which seems to believe man should have NO effect on nature...but that is another topic for another forum!

    Quote Originally Posted by Watchman View Post
    1. Man is incomplete, or inadequate, by himself.

    Quote Originally Posted by ”Brother Mark”
    Here I would bring in some food for thought. Colossians tells us we are complete in Him. It doesn't say we find completion in a mate. Scripture does say, that before the fall, before sin entered into the world, that it was not good for man to be alone! That's a huge statement. So we know from that, that being single is not God's ultimate desire for most people. That's why Paul said in 1 Cor. 7 "each man according to his gift". It is not good for man to be alone, unless he is specifically gifted and called to it. But that doesn't mean he's inadequate, incomplete, etc. He needs a helper for sure.
    I might need more of a keeper than a helper! You're correct, scripture doesn't say we find completion in a mate, but there is much use of the illustration of marriage to help us understand our relationship to Christ...and I'm really, really looking forward with great anticipation to the wedding feast of the Lamb. That'll be the ultimate party!

    Quote Originally Posted by ”Watchman”
    2. Man needed a helper and neither his superior, God, or his inferior, animals, were suitable. He needed ‘flesh of his flesh, bone of his bones’ for a suitable helper.

    Quote Originally Posted by ”Brother Mark”
    I love this part! Bones are often typed as the soul in scripture. See psalms 6:2-3 and 42 and Hebrews 4:12. In essence Adam is saying "Here's someone that is like me in my soul". That's what Jesus said too after we are saved. For we are to be conformed to His image and in His likeness. He looks at us and says to the Father "Here is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh" for we are now His body!
    Your first statement, above, is comforting and soothing. The second, bolded one is the epitome of all that is good! It is at once both staggering, humbling, and exalting. Wow! I'd never considered Jesus and Papa's pov in quite that manner previously. Outstanding!

    Quote Originally Posted by ”Watchman”
    5. God made man before woman, but that is not an indicator of inequality, rather, an indicator that man, alone, is in a less than desirable condition.

    Quote Originally Posted by ”Brother Mark”
    Very good! I think the idea of equality is often overlooked. God has never taught that the woman or man are more equal. Both are equal and equally important. But we do play different roles.
    Many view authority, headship, submission, etc., as one being superior in power and importance. One gives orders, others follow orders. That is not the picture being painted by the Holy Spirit in scripture of man 'having the rule over' women. I agree that we need to have a close look at authority, but prefer to wait just a bit until we get to the NT passages. Just trying to keep from getting too many discussions going simultaneously.

    blessings and thanks for the kind words & encouragement,

    W
    Sunset remembers Eden...sunrise prophesies its return.

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    Re: Women speaking in the church

    Continued from post #56

    One of the ways we can tell if we are interpreting scripture correctly is to look and see if God’s application matches our interpretation of a rule or command. When someone is adamant that a rule, or command, is eternal, then we have the entire span of history to see if God agrees with their interpretation of the rule/command. As previously stated, the curse God placed on all of creation was a curse, not a command. Consequently, there may be some rather notable exceptions. During the age of the patriarchs, God spoke mainly to head of households...men. From Abraham’s time to Joseph’s, there were no woman rulers, but when Moses’ law was given, then things changed a bit. The Law treats men and women mostly as equals, with the exceptions of only men being able to divorce their wives and only men being able to enter certain parts of the temple. There were, though, some leader figures in these times.

    Aaron’s sister, Miriam, was a prophetess per Exodus 15:20, and was called a leader. Micah 6:4 says, I brought you up out of Egypt and redeemed you from the land of slavery. I sent Moses to lead you, also Aaron and Miriam.

    Deborah was notable among the judges of Israel and was a leader of Israel. In the book of Judges, we see her giving orders to Israel’s general. She was married, yet we see God giving her leadership and authority over men.

    Judges 4:4-9, 14 Now Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lapidoth, was judging Israel at that time. And she would sit under the palm tree of Deborah between Ramah and Bethel in the mountains of Ephraim. And the children of Israel came up to her for judgment. Then she sent and called for Barak the son of Abinoam from Kedesh in Naphtali, and said to him, “Has not the LORD God of Israel commanded, ‘Go and deploy troops at Mount Tabor; take with you ten thousand men of the sons of Naphtali and of the sons of Zebulun; and against you I will deploy Sisera, the commander of Jabin’s army, with his chariots and his multitude at the River Kishon; and I will deliver him into your hand’?”

    And Barak said to her, “If you will go with me, then I will go; but if you will not go with me, I will not go!”

    So she said, “I will surely go with you; nevertheless there will be no glory for you in the journey you are taking, for the LORD will sell Sisera into the hand of a woman.” Then Deborah arose and went with Barak to Kedesh…Then Deborah said to Barak, “Up! For this is the day in which the LORD has delivered Sisera into your hand. Has not the LORD gone out before you?” So Barak went down from Mount Tabor with ten thousand men following him.


    Huldah, the prophetess, is accounted in 2 Kings 22:14-20. Josiah, the king of Judah, led his nation into its last reformation before the Babylonian captivity. We’d be remiss not to take into account God’s idea of a good wife in Proverbs 31, too. She is called a teacher (faithful instruction is on her tongue), although it cannot be told from the context if she instructs more than just her household.

    Although not recorded in the OT, three women under Moses’ law prophesied about the Christ: Elizabeth, mother of John the Baptist, Mary, mother of Jesus, and Anna. In fact, Anna testified of Jesus in the most public of Jewish worship places—the temple courts. This should not surprise us, though, given that Joel told us, in advance, that women would figure prominently in the future in Joel 2:28-29. Also in the NT, we find notable women such as the apostle, Junias, the deacon, Phoebe, and one of the teachers of Apollos, Priscilla (or Prisca). All of the women mentioned herein had leadership roles given to them by the Lord, with the possible exception of the wife of Proverbs 31. This seems to plainly contradict the notion that He prohibits women from leading men, from having authority over men, from teaching men, or from speaking in the presence of men.

    I skimmed through this first part rather lightly, because I know many are chomping at the bit to discuss the pertinent Pauline passages, so we’ll start those next, beginning with Ephesians 5. I’ll start a new thread and post a link to it when I get it written.

    blessings,

    Watchman
    Sunset remembers Eden...sunrise prophesies its return.

  15. #60
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    Re: Women speaking in the church

    Quote Originally Posted by Watchman View Post
    From Abraham’s time to Joseph’s, there were no woman rulers, but when Moses’ law was given, then things changed a bit. The Law treats men and women mostly as equals, with the exceptions of only men being able to divorce their wives and only men being able to enter certain parts of the temple. There were, though, some leader figures in these times.

    Aaron’s sister, Miriam, was a prophetess per Exodus 15:20, and was called a leader. Micah 6:4 says, I brought you up out of Egypt and redeemed you from the land of slavery. I sent Moses to lead you, also Aaron and Miriam.

    Deborah was notable among the judges of Israel and was a leader of Israel. In the book of Judges, we see her giving orders to Israel’s general. She was married, yet we see God giving her leadership and authority over men.
    A few questions Watchman.

    Do you consider Miriam as someone that was in authority? When she led, who was she leading?

    Judges 4:4-9, 14 Now Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lapidoth, was judging Israel at that time. And she would sit under the palm tree of Deborah between Ramah and Bethel in the mountains of Ephraim. And the children of Israel came up to her for judgment. Then she sent and called for Barak the son of Abinoam from Kedesh in Naphtali, and said to him, “Has not the LORD God of Israel commanded, ‘Go and deploy troops at Mount Tabor; take with you ten thousand men of the sons of Naphtali and of the sons of Zebulun; and against you I will deploy Sisera, the commander of Jabin’s army, with his chariots and his multitude at the River Kishon; and I will deliver him into your hand’?”

    And Barak said to her, “If you will go with me, then I will go; but if you will not go with me, I will not go!”

    So she said, “I will surely go with you; nevertheless there will be no glory for you in the journey you are taking, for the LORD will sell Sisera into the hand of a woman.” Then Deborah arose and went with Barak to Kedesh…Then Deborah said to Barak, “Up! For this is the day in which the LORD has delivered Sisera into your hand. Has not the LORD gone out before you?” So Barak went down from Mount Tabor with ten thousand men following him.
    Why did Deborah ask a man to take the lead in war?

    Why didn't Barak want to go without Deborah and why was he listed in the "hall of faith" since he wanted Deborah to come along and why was Deborah left out?

    Huldah, the prophetess, is accounted in 2 Kings 22:14-20. Josiah, the king of Judah, led his nation into its last reformation before the Babylonian captivity. We’d be remiss not to take into account God’s idea of a good wife in Proverbs 31, too. She is called a teacher (faithful instruction is on her tongue), although it cannot be told from the context if she instructs more than just her household.
    Do you see Huldah as one holding the office of prophet over Israel of being a prophet in gifting?

    Although not recorded in the OT, three women under Moses’ law prophesied about the Christ: Elizabeth, mother of John the Baptist, Mary, mother of Jesus, and Anna. In fact, Anna testified of Jesus in the most public of Jewish worship places—the temple courts. This should not surprise us, though, given that Joel told us, in advance, that women would figure prominently in the future in Joel 2:28-29.
    I have never understood the idea that women could not prophesy. There are just too many scriptural examples!

    Also in the NT, we find notable women such as the apostle, Junias, the deacon, Phoebe, and one of the teachers of Apollos, Priscilla (or Prisca). All of the women mentioned herein had leadership roles given to them by the Lord, with the possible exception of the wife of Proverbs 31. This seems to plainly contradict the notion that He prohibits women from leading men, from having authority over men, from teaching men, or from speaking in the presence of men.
    I don't consider deacons leadership. Do you?

    Junias is interesting. Can you expound on why you think Junias is a woman? I know there is some debate on this but I don't think it came up until much later. Anyway, if you have anything on her, it would be interesting.

    Also, can you find where Priscilla taught men without the covering of her husband? That would be something interesting too!

    From what I can see, I think you enjoy scriptural examples more so than anything else. If I find a scriptural example, that is different than another verse, it is hard for me to override the example written out in the book.

    I skimmed through this first part rather lightly, because I know many are chomping at the bit to discuss the pertinent Pauline passages, so we’ll start those next, beginning with Ephesians 5. I’ll start a new thread and post a link to it when I get it written.
    I think this is an important piece though. It is worth searching out if you desire to continue it. BTW, some of the questions above are genuine questions that I don't know the answer to. Some are given to perhaps give a different slant just for consideration whether I agree with that slant or not, I am not saying!

    Grace to you,

    Mark
    Matt 9:13
    13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
    NASU

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