Re: Women speaking in the church
That's exactly how I saw it too. I'll reserve further comment till later.
Originally Posted by Watchman
[quote]I suspect because that is what she heard from the Lord. Even so, she sent for Barak, she told him what to do, where to do it, and how to do it...and he refused to go without her. The Hebrew word, shaphat, means to act as law-giver or judge or governor.
I agree. But I can't help but wonder why God would ask. And when Barak refused, why did a woman get the glory? Why not choose another man?
Well, we know he had faith. That's why he got mentioned in Hebrews 11. I am not sure why Deborah was left out but Barak was put in. That seems strange to me.
We're not told why Barak wouldn't go without Deborah. Neither are we told why Barak is given honorable mention in Hebrews, since he was told in Judges that the honor for the victory would not go to him.
I agree somewhat. I do think the office of a prophet has authority that a person with the "motivating" gift of prophesy does not. For instance, I see Isaiah, Jeremiah, Elijah, Elisha, etc. operating in the office of a prophet that comes with authority.
I see her simply as a prophet. Prophets have no authority of their own, but they speak upon the authority of the Lord. It is the same today.
Amen. Plenty of scripture about women prophesying. I think we can show too where they could prophesy in church but that will come later. Besides, does silent mean they can't sing in church or play the piano, etc. (OK, I know I got ahead of you there. Sorry. Well, not really, but yea, sorry kind of sort of. )
Amen...and one cannot prophesy in silence, eh?
Agree on all counts. We have grossly misunderstood or misused the concept of deacon in our churches today. They are not elders, though they are to be Spirit filled.
I don't consider them as leaders, rather, as servants. The reason I included her is because, given our western mindset, many have elevated deacons to the position of 'junior elders' or elders in training. Further, some believe that it is sinful for women to help serve communion, so the idea of a woman servant to a body of saints in a given locale was given to quell that notion.
This is something I need to look further into. The name is mentioned once in scripture but that's a lot because I am certainly not mentioned in there! But it's also few. Anyway, I was wondering what evidence we have of it.
For starters, Iounias
is a feminine name in Greek. Guin states that Junias is first mentioned as male in the 14th century; however, he didn't give a corroborating footnote or source. Here's a quote from the 4th century by Chrysostom:
To be an apostle is something great. But to be outstanding among the apostles--just think what a wonderful song of praise that is! They were outstanding on the basis of their works and virtuous actions. Indeed, how great the wisdom of this woman must have been that she was even deemed worthy of the title of apostle.
Sounds like we may have ended up in a very similar place in our studies on this subject. Perhaps not the same place but a similar one. We'll see.
Priscilla is mentioned only 5 times in the NT, and always in conjunction with her husband. You've raised an excellent point, though, with your question. That of covering. I believe a woman can do just about anything under the authority of her husband. Perhaps we'll explore that a bit more at a later time.
Very good! Just an FYI and a side note, baptism was settled for me with Cornelius.
This is precisely why this study is needed. We have verses that seem to say women must be utterly mute, while others tell how they are to pray and prophesy. Some seem to say they cannot teach, yet Priscilla did exactly that with Apollos. We will be looking at the meanings of authority and silence as we progress.
Yes! And I can't believe you would think our western mindset would influence our studies of the scripture! How dare you throw rocks at our culture. When I was a young man, and lost, God took me far away from home. It was in the US but still a different culture. For the first time in my life, I came face to face with people that culturally thought different than I did. It helped me realize the difference between truth and preference/culture. It went a long way in breaking off some pretty heavy religion that was on me.
I don't know the answers to all those questions, either. And I certainly don't change my beliefs without prayerful consideration and witness from the Holy Spirit. I believe we have superimposed our western way of thinking on the scriptures to the point that we have some things really messed up. The Greek meanings behind head, authority, and silence are examples of places I believe we've missed the boat. As for the reasons for questions, anytime they get folks to think, to prayerfully delve more deeply into scripture, and to be open to allowing the Lord to instruct them (even if it is through others), then that is a good thing, yes?
Thanks! I need to look into Junia a little more.
PS: One reference I have re: Junias is: Osburn, Essays on Women
...translated by James Walters, "Phoebe and Junia(s)"--Romans 16:1-2,7, page 187
Andy, you are a blessing to me and to this board! I like the way you put things together. I especially like the way you use the entire bible instead of just a portion of it! Kudos!
Grace to you!
"May the Lamb that was slain receive the just reward for His sufferings." A quote by Moravian missionary that sold himself (along with a friend) into slavery to reach those that the slave owner prevented from hearing the gospel.
May I live for Him and not for me.