Women speaking in the church

[Watchman]

Do you consider Miriam as someone that was in authority? When she led, who was she leading?

Miriam was Moses and Aaron's sister. The Lord spoke to her, along with her brothers. Moses was undisputedly the head honcho, so he would have been the cover you mentioned. Other than the time Miriam led all the women in a celebratory dance and song, there is no mention of how she led. There is, though, the account of Miriam becoming leprous for speaking against Moses when he married an Ethiopian woman.

Why did Deborah ask a man to take the lead in war?

I suspect because that is what she heard from the Lord. Even so, she sent for Barak, she told him what to do, where to do it, and how to do it...and he refused to go without her. The Hebrew word, shaphat, means to act as law-giver or judge or governor.

Why didn't Barak want to go without Deborah and why was he listed in the "hall of faith" since he wanted Deborah to come along and why was Deborah left out?

We're not told why Barak wouldn't go without Deborah. Neither are we told why Barak is given honorable mention in Hebrews, since he was told in Judges that the honor for the victory would not go to him.

Do you see Huldah as one holding the office of prophet over Israel of being a prophet in gifting?

I see her simply as a prophet. Prophets have no authority of their own, but they speak upon the authority of the Lord. It is the same today.

I have never understood the idea that women could not prophesy. There are just too many scriptural examples!

Amen...and one cannot prophesy in silence, eh?

I don't consider deacons leadership. Do you?

I don't consider them as leaders, rather, as servants. The reason I included her is because, given our western mindset, many have elevated deacons to the position of 'junior elders' or elders in training. Further, some believe that it is sinful for women to help serve communion, so the idea of a woman servant to a body of saints in a given locale was given to quell that notion.

Junias is interesting. Can you expound on why you think Junias is a woman? I know there is some debate on this but I don't think it came up until much later. Anyway, if you have anything on her, it would be interesting.

For starters, Iounias is a feminine name in Greek. Guin states that Junias is first mentioned as male in the 14th century; however, he didn't give a corroborating footnote or source. Here's a quote from the 4th century by Chrysostom:

To be an apostle is something great. But to be outstanding among the apostles--just think what a wonderful song of praise that is! They were outstanding on the basis of their works and virtuous actions. Indeed, how great the wisdom of this woman must have been that she was even deemed worthy of the title of apostle.

Also, can you find where Priscilla taught men without the covering of her husband? That would be something interesting too!

Priscilla is mentioned only 5 times in the NT, and always in conjunction with her husband. You've raised an excellent point, though, with your question. That of covering. I believe a woman can do just about anything under the authority of her husband. Perhaps we'll explore that a bit more at a later time.

From what I can see, I think you enjoy scriptural examples more so than anything else. If I find a scriptural example, that is different than another verse, it is hard for me to override the example written out in the book.

This is precisely why this study is needed. We have verses that seem to say women must be utterly mute, while others tell how they are to pray and prophesy. Some seem to say they cannot teach, yet Priscilla did exactly that with Apollos. We will be looking at the meanings of authority and silence as we progress.

I think this is an important piece though. It is worth searching out if you desire to continue it. BTW, some of the questions above are genuine questions that I don't know the answer to. Some are given to perhaps give a different slant just for consideration whether I agree with that slant or not, I am not saying!

I don't know the answers to all those questions, either. And I certainly don't change my beliefs without prayerful consideration and witness from the Holy Spirit. I believe we have superimposed our western way of thinking on the scriptures to the point that we have some things really messed up. The Greek meanings behind head, authority, and silence are examples of places I believe we've missed the boat. As for the reasons for questions, anytime they get folks to think, to prayerfully delve more deeply into scripture, and to be open to allowing the Lord to instruct them (even if it is through others), then that is a good thing, yes?

blessings,

Andy

PS: One reference I have re: Junias is: Osburn, Essays on Women...translated by James Walters, "Phoebe and Junia(s)"--Romans 16:1-2,7, page 187

[Brother Mark]

Miriam was Moses and Aaron's sister. The Lord spoke to her, along with her brothers. Moses was undisputedly the head honcho, so he would have been the cover you mentioned. Other than the time Miriam led all the women in a celebratory dance and song, there is no mention of how she led. There is, though, the account of Miriam becoming leprous for speaking against Moses when he married an Ethiopian woman.

That's exactly how I saw it too. I'll reserve further comment till later.

[quote]I suspect because that is what she heard from the Lord. Even so, she sent for Barak, she told him what to do, where to do it, and how to do it...and he refused to go without her. The Hebrew word, shaphat, means to act as law-giver or judge or governor.

I agree. But I can't help but wonder why God would ask. And when Barak refused, why did a woman get the glory? Why not choose another man?

We're not told why Barak wouldn't go without Deborah. Neither are we told why Barak is given honorable mention in Hebrews, since he was told in Judges that the honor for the victory would not go to him.

Well, we know he had faith. That's why he got mentioned in Hebrews 11. I am not sure why Deborah was left out but Barak was put in. That seems strange to me.

I see her simply as a prophet. Prophets have no authority of their own, but they speak upon the authority of the Lord. It is the same today.

I agree somewhat. I do think the office of a prophet has authority that a person with the "motivating" gift of prophesy does not. For instance, I see Isaiah, Jeremiah, Elijah, Elisha, etc. operating in the office of a prophet that comes with authority.

Amen...and one cannot prophesy in silence, eh?

Amen. Plenty of scripture about women prophesying. I think we can show too where they could prophesy in church but that will come later. Besides, does silent mean they can't sing in church or play the piano, etc. (OK, I know I got ahead of you there. Sorry. Well, not really, but yea, sorry kind of sort of. )

I don't consider them as leaders, rather, as servants. The reason I included her is because, given our western mindset, many have elevated deacons to the position of 'junior elders' or elders in training. Further, some believe that it is sinful for women to help serve communion, so the idea of a woman servant to a body of saints in a given locale was given to quell that notion.

Agree on all counts. We have grossly misunderstood or misused the concept of deacon in our churches today. They are not elders, though they are to be Spirit filled.

For starters, Iounias is a feminine name in Greek. Guin states that Junias is first mentioned as male in the 14th century; however, he didn't give a corroborating footnote or source. Here's a quote from the 4th century by Chrysostom:

To be an apostle is something great. But to be outstanding among the apostles--just think what a wonderful song of praise that is! They were outstanding on the basis of their works and virtuous actions. Indeed, how great the wisdom of this woman must have been that she was even deemed worthy of the title of apostle.

This is something I need to look further into. The name is mentioned once in scripture but that's a lot because I am certainly not mentioned in there! But it's also few. Anyway, I was wondering what evidence we have of it.

Priscilla is mentioned only 5 times in the NT, and always in conjunction with her husband. You've raised an excellent point, though, with your question. That of covering. I believe a woman can do just about anything under the authority of her husband. Perhaps we'll explore that a bit more at a later time.

Sounds like we may have ended up in a very similar place in our studies on this subject. Perhaps not the same place but a similar one. We'll see.

This is precisely why this study is needed. We have verses that seem to say women must be utterly mute, while others tell how they are to pray and prophesy. Some seem to say they cannot teach, yet Priscilla did exactly that with Apollos. We will be looking at the meanings of authority and silence as we progress.

Very good! Just an FYI and a side note, baptism was settled for me with Cornelius.

I don't know the answers to all those questions, either. And I certainly don't change my beliefs without prayerful consideration and witness from the Holy Spirit. I believe we have superimposed our western way of thinking on the scriptures to the point that we have some things really messed up. The Greek meanings behind head, authority, and silence are examples of places I believe we've missed the boat. As for the reasons for questions, anytime they get folks to think, to prayerfully delve more deeply into scripture, and to be open to allowing the Lord to instruct them (even if it is through others), then that is a good thing, yes?

Yes! And I can't believe you would think our western mindset would influence our studies of the scripture! How dare you throw rocks at our culture. When I was a young man, and lost, God took me far away from home. It was in the US but still a different culture. For the first time in my life, I came face to face with people that culturally thought different than I did. It helped me realize the difference between truth and preference/culture. It went a long way in breaking off some pretty heavy religion that was on me.

PS: One reference I have re: Junias is: Osburn, Essays on Women...translated by James Walters, "Phoebe and Junia(s)"--Romans 16:1-2,7, page 187

Thanks! I need to look into Junia a little more.

Andy, you are a blessing to me and to this board! I like the way you put things together. I especially like the way you use the entire bible instead of just a portion of it! Kudos!

Grace to you!

Mark

[Watchman]

I suspect because that is what she heard from the Lord. Even so, she sent for Barak, she told him what to do, where to do it, and how to do it...and he refused to go without her. The Hebrew word, shaphat, means to act as law-giver or judge or governor.

I agree. But I can't help but wonder why God would ask. And when Barak refused, why did a woman get the glory? Why not choose another man?

Good question. Maybe we should ask Shamgar, who who apparently ruled at the same time as Deborah? Shamgar ruled after Ehud. See Judges 5:6 and compare to 3:31 & 4:1.

Yes! And I can't believe you would think our western mindset would influence our studies of the scripture! How dare you throw rocks at our culture. When I was a young man, and lost, God took me far away from home. It was in the US but still a different culture. For the first time in my life, I came face to face with people that culturally thought different than I did. It helped me realize the difference between truth and preference/culture. It went a long way in breaking off some pretty heavy religion that was on me.

You're not one of those bitter people who cling to guns and religion out of antipathy for those who are different than you, are you?

Andy, you are a blessing to me and to this board! I like the way you put things together. I especially like the way you use the entire bible instead of just a portion of it! Kudos!

Thank you for the kind words and encouragement. It has been awhile since I did a study like this online. I learn sooooo much while preparing the posts...even if they are about a topic I've previously covered. Your questions help a ton!

blessings,

A

[Watchman]

This topic is being continued in the thread, Women speaking in the church 2 - Ephesians 5.

blessings,

Watchman

PS: if there are still comments anyone wants to make about this first thread, please carry on, by all means! Just trying to keep this thing from getting so labyrinthine that stuff is hard to find.