If God is loving, good and omnipotent, why is there so much evil, pain and suffering?

[Itinerant Lurker]

Itinerant Lurker,
I want to ask you a question, but I do not want to offend you, so I hope I don't.
You joined this forum in 2008 and have been coming in here all this time and I am wondering what the draw is for you to keep coming in here. I am just curious. No offense meant.

Hah, don't worry - it takes quite a bit to offend me. When I first joined this forum I was a Christian, and spent most of my time discussing issues involving Young Earth Creationism and evolution as I was a Theistic Evolutionist. At that point I was in the midst of a journey that had taken me from fervent Intelligent Design proponent to confused ID proponent to TE, and which would eventually deposit me upon the shores of agnosticism.

Why do I keep coming here? Well, I have to admit I simply enjoy discussing these issues - as do I enjoy challenging myself and my views by discussing them with others who disagree with me. There's also the off chance that I'm wrong, in which case it seems that the best way to realize my error would be to test it upon the anvil of debate.




Lurker

[LookingUp]

Hah, don't worry - it takes quite a bit to offend me. When I first joined this forum I was a Christian, and spent most of my time discussing issues involving Young Earth Creationism and evolution as I was a Theistic Evolutionist. At that point I was in the midst of a journey that had taken me from fervent Intelligent Design proponent to confused ID proponent to TE, and which would eventually deposit me upon the shores of agnosticism.

Why do I keep coming here? Well, I have to admit I simply enjoy discussing these issues - as do I enjoy challenging myself and my views by discussing them with others who disagree with me. There's also the off chance that I'm wrong, in which case it seems that the best way to realize my error would be to test it upon the anvil of debate.




Lurker

Did you see this?

I question the traditional view of hell that asserts the damned will suffer eternally in this lake of fire. The two strongest passages used to support eternal suffering are the following:

“If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name” (Revelation 14:9-11).

“And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever” (Revelation 20:10).

I don’t automatically assume that “day and night forever and ever” must be taken literally. Isaiah uses the same kind of imagery to describe the fate of Edom.

“Its streams will be turned into pitch, and its loose earth into brimstone, and its land will become a burning pitch. It will not be quenched night or day; its smoke will go up forever. From generation to generation it will be desolate; none will pass through it forever and ever” (Isaiah 34:9-10).

The fire of Edom’s judgment did not literally burn “night and day” without end, and the smoke of Edom’s judgment did not literally “go up forever.” If we know the phrase in Isaiah isn’t literal, why should we be inclined to interpret a nearly identical expression in Revelation literally?

When Scripture speaks of eternal punishment (Matt. 25:46), eternal judgment (Heb. 6:2), and eternal destruction (2 Thess. 1:9), I think of it in the same way I think of eternal redemption. Our redemption is “eternal” in the sense that once we are redeemed, it is forever. We don’t go through an eternal process of redemption. Punishment, judgment, destruction of the wicked is eternal. They are destroyed forever (Psalm 92:7), but not forever being destroyed. It is says eternal punishment; not eternal punishing. “Like smoke, the wicked will vanish away” (Psalm 37:20). I don’t want to make this too long, so I’ll just say that the wicked are threatened with annihilation and total destruction throughout the Old Testament (Deut. 29:20, 23; Isa 1:28, 30-31; 5:24; Ps. 1:4-6; 34:16; 37:2, 9-10, 38; 58:7-8; 69:28; Prov. 10:25; 12:7; 24:20; Dan. 2:35; Nahum 1:10; Mal. 4:1). The New Testament, too, threatens the wicked with annihilation and total destruction (Matt. 3:10-12; 7:19; 10:28; 13:40; John 15:6; Phil. 3:18-19; Heb. 6:8; James 4:12; 2 Peter 2:3; 3:7; Jude 7).

Besides the biblical support for the view that the wicked will be totally destroyed and perish from the earth forever, could you imagine the glorious new creation utterly filled with holiness and goodness and “in which righteousness alone dwells” and in some far off dark corner of the kingdom sits a compartment of billions of sinners roasting in the lake of fire? And if these guys are aware and conscious as the traditional view teaches, won’t they be in there sinning by cursing God? Or will their eternal suffering and torment lead them to praise and worship God? Certainly not. I view God’s redemption as total. That’s what I see in Matthew 13:41, “they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend.” And what? Stick them in a closet? God’s utterly perfect and flawless kingdom will have one little nasty room in it? This addresses God’s righteousness, but what about God’s love? Does God do anything that is not constructive? Does even a parent, who is less than ideal as God certainly is, punish or inflict pain for any other purpose than that of correcting and for the child’s long-term favor? What’s remedial about the lake of fire?

Yet some will still look at those two passages that seem to support eternal suffering and remain firm in their belief that God will do what He says He will do—cast the wicked into the lake of fire where they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. Period.

But there’s not just the biblical support for annihilation and complete destruction in Old and New Testaments, and there’s not just the idea that a compartment full of billions of roasting sinners does not harmonize with an utterly righteous kingdom or a God who is perfectly constructive in his punishing. There’s also the question of God’s mercy.

What does Scripture teach about God’s mercy? Is there evidence that God’s mercy triumphs over His wrath? Looking at the prophets we see that God continually tells Israel in no uncertain terms He’s going to punish them severely. But time and time again, He relents. Time and time again he delays the punishment or scales back its severity or both. Was God lying when He said He’d do those terrible things? No. He meant every word. But His mercy compelled Him to stop short. So, even if the symbolic language John used to describe the fate of the wicked is actually literal (which I question), God’s mercy has been shown to be more powerful and compelling than His wrath. And annihilation would be a merciful act. This idea of annihilation harmonizes with the teaching that God’s anger endures for a moment but His love endures forever and His mercy is everlasting (Ps. 30:5, 100:5; 103:9; 106:1; 107:1; 118:29; 136:10-26; Micah 7:18; Ps. 100:5; 138:8; Isa. 54:8).

“LORD, I have heard the report about You and I fear. O LORD, revive Your work in the midst of the years, in the midst of the years make it known; in wrath remember mercy” (Hab. 3:2).

[LookingUp]

For Itinerant Lurker or anyone else who want's to know if God is real:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iMrck6jgm8M&sns=fb

[Yaaqov ben Yisrael]

Well...this response sounds A LOT different than creating evil.

יֹוצֵ֥ר אֹור֙ וּבֹורֵ֣א חֹ֔שֶׁךְ עֹשֶׂ֥ה שָׁלֹ֖ום וּבֹ֣ורֵא רָ֑ע אֲנִ֥י יְהוָ֖ה עֹשֶׂ֥ה כָל־אֵֽלֶּה׃

Forming light and Creating darkness, Making peace and Creating evil, I YHWH am doing all this. Is 45:7

In this verse, יוצר and בורא and עשׂה are all active participles. This means they can be seen as either verbs or adjectives. So the verse could imply YHWH is the One Doing the action actively, or simply mean He is the Former, Creator, and Maker of them. Either way, the meaning is quite clear, He created, and creates evil.

אִמ־יִתָּקַ֤ע שֹׁופָר֙ בְּעִ֔יר וְעָ֖ם לֹ֣א יֶחֱרָ֑דוּ אִמ־תִּהְיֶ֤ה רָעָה֙ בְּעִ֔יר וַיהוָ֖ה לֹ֥א עָשָֽׂה׃
If a shofar is blown in a city, and the people will not be terrified; if there will be evil in a city; and YHWH not made it? Amos 3:6

The fact of the Bible is God made evil, He uses evil for His own purposes. God even hardens a man's heart in order to make him yeild to His purposes:

וַאֲנִ֥י אַקְשֶׁ֖ה אֶת־לֵ֣ב פַּרְעֹ֑ה וְהִרְבֵּיתִ֧י אֶת־אֹתֹתַ֛י וְאֶת־מֹופְתַ֖י בְּאֶ֥רֶץ מִצְרָֽיִם׃

And I will cause the heart of Pharaoh to be hardened; and I will cuase to be multiplied My signs and My wonders inthe land of Egypt Ex 7:3

All verbs in this verse are hiphil, which are causative. This means YHWH caused Pharaoh's heart to harden.

וַאֲנִ֗י הִנְנִ֤י מְחַזֵּק֙ אֶת־לֵ֣ב מִצְרַ֔יִם וְיָבֹ֖אוּ אַחֲרֵיהֶ֑ם וְאִכָּבְדָ֤ה בְּפַרְעֹה֙ וּבְכָל־חֵילֹ֔ו בְּרִכְבֹּ֖ו וּבְפָרָשָֽׁיו׃
And look, I am hardening the heart ofthe Egyptians, and they will come after you; and I shall be magnified by Pharaoh, and all his army, his chariots and his horsemen. Ex 14:17.

The sole reason for his hardening their hearst is to be magnified. He caused this situation to be so. You can even look in the book of Ezekiel and see that inthe war of Gog and Magog, which is still yet to happen; He is the one who causes this war; and He gives the reason for it:

וְהִתְגַּדִּלְתִּי֙ וְהִתְקַדִּשְׁתִּ֔י וְנֹ֣ודַעְתִּ֔י לְעֵינֵ֖י גֹּויִ֣ם רַבִּ֑ים וְיָדְע֖וּ כִּֽי־אֲנִ֥י יְהוָֽה׃
And I will magnify Myself and sanctify Myself, and I will be known in the eyes of many nations; and they shall know that I am YHWH. Ez 38:23



Yaaqov ben Yisrael

[LookingUp]

יֹוצֵ֥ר אֹור֙ וּבֹורֵ֣א חֹ֔שֶׁךְ עֹשֶׂ֥ה שָׁלֹ֖ום וּבֹ֣ורֵא רָ֑ע אֲנִ֥י יְהוָ֖ה עֹשֶׂ֥ה כָל־אֵֽלֶּה׃

Forming light and Creating darkness, Making peace and Creating evil, I YHWH am doing all this. Is 45:7

In this verse, יוצר and בורא and עשׂה are all active participles. This means they can be seen as either verbs or adjectives. So the verse could imply YHWH is the One Doing the action actively, or simply mean He is the Former, Creator, and Maker of them. Either way, the meaning is quite clear, He created, and creates evil.

אִמ־יִתָּקַ֤ע שֹׁופָר֙ בְּעִ֔יר וְעָ֖ם לֹ֣א יֶחֱרָ֑דוּ אִמ־תִּהְיֶ֤ה רָעָה֙ בְּעִ֔יר וַיהוָ֖ה לֹ֥א עָשָֽׂה׃
If a shofar is blown in a city, and the people will not be terrified; if there will be evil in a city; and YHWH not made it? Amos 3:6

The fact of the Bible is God made evil, He uses evil for His own purposes.

Many take Isaiah 45:7 on the linguistic surface in order to believe the false notion that God creates ethical evil. Just because the word ra is present does not give us an absolutely unmistakable indication that moral evil is under discussion. Out of the 640 occurrences of the word ra (which can mean anything from “nasty” taste to full moral evil), there are 275 instances where “trouble” or “calamity” is the meaning. Only the context will give us the clues needed to determine the meaning of the world “evil” in this verse. In this verse, we see that calamities have come on the people through Cyrus, and the word “ra” is used to describe it.

The One forming light and creating darkness, causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the Lord who does all these. (NASB)

I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things. (NIV)

I form light and create darkness, I make weal and create woe; I the Lord do all these things. (NRSV)

Light is the opposite of darkness; calamity/disaster/woe (“evil”) is the opposite of peace. Whatever “evil” is in this verse, it is the opposite of peace (moral evil is not the opposite of peace). Light and darkness are well-known prophetic images for prosperity and disaster (Isa. 5:29; Jer. 13:16; Amos 5:18; Isa. 8:22; Isa. 47:5; Isa. 60:2; Zeph. 1:15).

This same simple process can be done with Amos 3:6 to easily recognize that this is not talking about God creating ethical evil. Both the lexical and textual data support a “disaster” or “calamity” understanding. The prophetic context patterns also support this understanding.

[LookingUp]

God even hardens a man's heart in order to make him yeild to His purposes:

וַאֲנִ֥י אַקְשֶׁ֖ה אֶת־לֵ֣ב פַּרְעֹ֑ה וְהִרְבֵּיתִ֧י אֶת־אֹתֹתַ֛י וְאֶת־מֹופְתַ֖י בְּאֶ֥רֶץ מִצְרָֽיִם׃

And I will cause the heart of Pharaoh to be hardened; and I will cuase to be multiplied My signs and My wonders inthe land of Egypt Ex 7:3

All verbs in this verse are hiphil, which are causative. This means YHWH caused Pharaoh's heart to harden.

וַאֲנִ֗י הִנְנִ֤י מְחַזֵּק֙ אֶת־לֵ֣ב מִצְרַ֔יִם וְיָבֹ֖אוּ אַחֲרֵיהֶ֑ם וְאִכָּבְדָ֤ה בְּפַרְעֹה֙ וּבְכָל־חֵילֹ֔ו בְּרִכְבֹּ֖ו וּבְפָרָשָֽׁיו׃
And look, I am hardening the heart ofthe Egyptians, and they will come after you; and I shall be magnified by Pharaoh, and all his army, his chariots and his horsemen. Ex 14:17.

The sole reason for his hardening their hearst is to be magnified. He caused this situation to be so. You can even look in the book of Ezekiel and see that inthe war of Gog and Magog, which is still yet to happen; He is the one who causes this war; and He gives the reason for it:

וְהִתְגַּדִּלְתִּי֙ וְהִתְקַדִּשְׁתִּ֔י וְנֹ֣ודַעְתִּ֔י לְעֵינֵ֖י גֹּויִ֣ם רַבִּ֑ים וְיָדְע֖וּ כִּֽי־אֲנִ֥י יְהוָֽה׃
And I will magnify Myself and sanctify Myself, and I will be known in the eyes of many nations; and they shall know that I am YHWH. Ez 38:23



Yaaqov ben Yisrael

Yep. God can harden any morally evil, wicked man’s heart.

[Itinerant Lurker]

Forty six minutes? Seriously? Sorry guys, that's not happening - my youtube-attention span tops out at around ten.




Lurker

[LookingUp]

Forty six minutes? Seriously? Sorry guys, that's not happening - my youtube-attention span tops out at around ten.


Lurker

Watch it for ten, then. Let me know what you think of the first ten minutes.

[Yaaqov ben Yisrael]

Many take Isaiah 45:7 on the linguistic surface in order to believe the false notion that God creates ethical evil. Just because the word ra is present does not give us an absolutely unmistakable indication that moral evil is under discussion. Out of the 640 occurrences of the word ra (which can mean anything from “nasty” taste to full moral evil), there are 275 instances where “trouble” or “calamity” is the meaning. Only the context will give us the clues needed to determine the meaning of the world “evil” in this verse. In this verse, we see that calamities have come on the people through Cyrus, and the word “ra” is used to describe it.

The One forming light and creating darkness, causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the Lord who does all these. (NASB)

I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things. (NIV)

I form light and create darkness, I make weal and create woe; I the Lord do all these things. (NRSV)

Light is the opposite of darkness; calamity/disaster/woe (“evil”) is the opposite of peace. Whatever “evil” is in this verse, it is the opposite of peace (moral evil is not the opposite of peace). Light and darkness are well-known prophetic images for prosperity and disaster (Isa. 5:29; Jer. 13:16; Amos 5:18; Isa. 8:22; Isa. 47:5; Isa. 60:2; Zeph. 1:15).

This same simple process can be done with Amos 3:6 to easily recognize that this is not talking about God creating ethical evil. Both the lexical and textual data support a “disaster” or “calamity” understanding. The prophetic context patterns also support this understanding.

Ra' can have several meanings, all of which are not good, and are always oppposed to "good" "right" "peace" etc. God sends calamity, pestilence, disease, plague, deformities, etc.; He sends evil spirits, destroying angels, etc. He sends lying prophets, teachers, etc. In the beginning He set ra' in the midst of the Garden, He presented it to Adam; even as He presents it before everyone.

Ya'aqov ben Yisrael

[Itinerant Lurker]

Watch it for ten, then. Let me know what you think of the first ten minutes.

Francis Chan is nothing if not intensely earnest. . .but I don't see anything new there. I grew up on a mission field in Africa, so I've heard about a trillion of these "answered prayer" stories - and at first they sound really impressive. . .until you add some context. So a supermarket's freezer broke and they called up an apparently well-publicized church event doing outreach to the poor, how is that miraculous? Did god intercede to break their freezer just so that this one church group could serve meat to the poor on this one day? Over twenty thousand people, many of them children, die of hunger every single day - can't god break freezers for them too? If he exists then of course he can, but if he exists and does not then how can we call him "good"? We call people who allow children to starve to death monsters.

There is a not particularly well-hidden conceit in all such stories: Never mind the agony of the world, god interceded in the universe to help me/my church/my family. When good things happen, god is good; when bad things happen, god is mysterious. How convenient.




Lurker

[LookingUp]

Francis Chan is nothing if not intensely earnest. . .but I don't see anything new there. I grew up on a mission field in Africa, so I've heard about a trillion of these "answered prayer" stories - and at first they sound really impressive. . .until you add some context. So a supermarket's freezer broke and they called up an apparently well-publicized church event doing outreach to the poor, how is that miraculous? Did god intercede to break their freezer just so that this one church group could serve meat to the poor on this one day? Over twenty thousand people, many of them children, die of hunger every single day - can't god break freezers for them too? If he exists then of course he can, but if he exists and does not then how can we call him "good"? We call people who allow children to starve to death monsters.

There is a not particularly well-hidden conceit in all such stories: Never mind the agony of the world, god interceded in the universe to help me/my church/my family. When good things happen, god is good; when bad things happen, god is mysterious. How convenient.




Lurker

What ages were you on the mission field? What did you think of the miracles at the time? When did you begin to feel they weren’t miracles after all?

[LookingUp]

Ra' can have several meanings, all of which are not good, and are always oppposed to "good" "right" "peace" etc. God sends calamity, pestilence, disease, plague, deformities, etc.; He sends evil spirits, destroying angels, etc. He sends lying prophets, teachers, etc. In the beginning He set ra' in the midst of the Garden, He presented it to Adam; even as He presents it before everyone.

Ya'aqov ben Yisrael

God sends "deformities"? Where is that in Scripture? I have to say, if I were Itinerant Lurker, I wouldn't believe in your god either.

[claybevan]

Hah, don't worry - it takes quite a bit to offend me. When I first joined this forum I was a Christian, and spent most of my time discussing issues involving Young Earth Creationism and evolution as I was a Theistic Evolutionist. At that point I was in the midst of a journey that had taken me from fervent Intelligent Design proponent to confused ID proponent to TE, and which would eventually deposit me upon the shores of agnosticism.

Why do I keep coming here? Well, I have to admit I simply enjoy discussing these issues - as do I enjoy challenging myself and my views by discussing them with others who disagree with me. There's also the off chance that I'm wrong, in which case it seems that the best way to realize my error would be to test it upon the anvil of debate.




Lurker

Hi there Lurker, I have read all the posts and me thinks you know you can't find any answers from us, it's all very interesting debating this stuff but if you really want answers? I'd go straight to management! Matthew 7:7 seek and you shall find..... if you ask with an open heart ... who knows.

[Itinerant Lurker]

What ages were you on the mission field?

Pretty much birth to graduating highschool - though there were a few intermittent years spent in the states.

What did you think of the miracles at the time?

Depends on the time. When I was younger I believed them whole-heartedly, though the obvious unfairness of it all steadily became obvious over time.

When did you begin to feel they weren’t miracles after all?

High school and college mostly. Coming back to the states and seeing the kinds of petty things people regularly celebrated as god directly intervening in the universe on their behalf was (and, quite honestly, still is) utterly sickening. Additionally, by then I had experience with people from many faiths who presented the exact same types of miraculous healing stories as well as a good enough understanding of how the universe actually works to begin noting far more plausible explanations.




Lurker

[Itinerant Lurker]

Hi there Lurker, I have read all the posts and me thinks you know you can't find any answers from us, it's all very interesting debating this stuff but if you really want answers? I'd go straight to management! Matthew 7:7 seek and you shall find..... if you ask with an open heart ... who knows.

Up until not even a year ago I was a Christian with a very open heart - in fact I'd say my heart still is open. I just don't hear anything.




Lurker