If God is loving, good and omnipotent, why is there so much evil, pain and suffering?

[LookingUp]

Pretty much birth to graduating highschool - though there were a few intermittent years spent in the states.

Wow. Are your parents still followers of Jesus as the Messiah and Savior? Are all their kids followers? What does the family feel about your path away from the faith?

Depends on the time. When I was younger I believed them whole-heartedly, though the obvious unfairness of it all steadily became obvious over time.

Who do you now feel Jesus was? A misunderstood man? I assume you think his miracles were not real. Why do you think they were written down by his followers as miracles?

I’m not sure I understand why you say it was obviously unfair. How do you mean? Do you mean because only some were healed and not all? Does it seem unfair that Jesus cured only some of the people and not every person alive in Judea?

It’s interesting that you see it as unfair. I guess I see it from a different angle than you do. I would think “fair” would be God not involving Himself at all with His creation and allowing it/them to take whatever course it/they wanted to without interfering at all.

High school and college mostly. Coming back to the states and seeing the kinds of petty things people regularly celebrated as god directly intervening in the universe on their behalf was (and, quite honestly, still is) utterly sickening.

Why do you think it’s sickening? If someone wants to believe God got them a parking place, what is that to you? Isn’t that their “problem” or whatever? How does that make God the bad guy, assuming He is real?

Additionally, by then I had experience with people from many faiths who presented the exact same types of miraculous healing stories

Can’t God cross religious boundaries? Is He limited by the religion you align yourself with? Maybe God’s more interested in your heart and actions than your religious affiliation, even if that means you don’t know or even misunderstand the identity of His son.

as well as a good enough understanding of how the universe actually works to begin noting far more plausible explanations.

How does the universe work, where did you get your knowledge of this, and how does it conflict with how the Bible portrays how the universe works?

p.s. I’m still wondering why you haven’t responded to my post about eternal suffering. Why would you continue to believe in a doctrine that’s not taught in Scripture…unless it’s useful in making you feel justified for not believing in the God of the Bible?

[AngelNSC]

I went to a funeral the other day...my second cousins wife died at the age of 44....the Pastor said some things that really made me think...when things like this happen...death of a loved one, loss of job, house and etc....we can ask all the "Why" questions we want to God...but we will not get an answer...and the Pastor said...death has no "age"...it comes to all ages. but think about this..God sent his ONLY SON...to die on a cruel cross and bear terrible sufferings at the age of 33 so that we might have forgiveness of our sins ....and on the cross Jesus even asked "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me" and there was no answer. God is good all the time...his time is not our time...his ways are not our ways...but we have to believe and have Faith, that God knows best and all things....good and bad...there is a reason, that only God knows and sees...God sees and knows the future..we dont...We were created to live for Him and do the work he has put us on this earth to do...but then there is the Devil and He is just as real and the Devil is the ruler of this world...but only until God comes back...so the Devil is about doing all he can to destroy people and their lives whatever it takes...God will only let the devil go but so far...because God is ultimately in Control, but because of sin..and humans have a free choice/free will...God will not make anyone love him or live for him...we choose...and we will answer oneday to whatever choice we made...dont know if that helped are not...hope so...but thats some of what that Pastor said..and it makes sense to me..and the rest is what I think...so like everyone..we all have our own thoughts and opinions.

[Itinerant Lurker]

Wow. Are your parents still followers of Jesus as the Messiah and Savior? Are all their kids followers? What does the family feel about your path away from the faith?

Yeah I'm pretty much the lone agnostic in my entire extended family.

Who do you now feel Jesus was? A misunderstood man? I assume you think his miracles were not real. Why do you think they were written down by his followers as miracles?

Jesus seems to have been a fairly remarkable individual with some ideas that were clearly ahead of his time. However, as with many second-hand accounts of remarkable individuals that are only written down decades and/or centuries after their deaths fanciful stories were likely added that probably never occurred. Why were they added? Why do people still add stories of miraculous events surrounding dead people like Elvis or miracles attributed to Mother Theresa?

I’m not sure I understand why you say it was obviously unfair. How do you mean? Do you mean because only some were healed and not all?

It’s interesting that you see it as unfair. I guess I see it from a different angle than you do. I would think “fair” would be God not involving Himself at all with His creation and allowing it/them to take whatever course it/they wanted to without interfering at all.

I would think "fair" would be god not intentionally creating a world in which millions of innocent people suffer and die in agony from disease, starvation, natural disasters, and war for tens of thousands of years. If you can cure a child of cancer but choose not too - that is unfair, if you can choose to cure a child of cancer, choose not too, and instead decide to spend that time giving rich, healthy kids lollipops it's sickeningly so.

Why do you think it’s sickening?

When you watch people die in agony from conditions brought on by abject poverty, horrendous diseases, lack of clean water, etc, you tend to gain a new perspective on human suffering. Now imagine that you watch them do so whilst praying with the utmost sincerity for god to grant them relief, or to grant some kind of relief to their child only to be met with silence. Now consider the individual who just happened to be born into a wealthy first world country with clean water, access to education and modern medicine, who says that god intervened into the universe to help them pay a bill or get a parking spot. How can that not make you feel ill? Knowing that there are literally millions of people who could benefit infinitely more from an even more modest intervention by a supposedly all-powerful god. How could such a god be considered anything but callous and cruel?

What would you call someone who had a cure for cancer that they could distribute to every child on earth with no effort or cost to themselves, who chose to let those children continue to suffer and die and instead spent his time making sure healthy people got good parking spots?

Can’t God cross religious boundaries? Is He limited by the religion you align yourself with? Maybe God’s more interested in your heart and actions than your religious affiliation, even if that means you don’t know or even misunderstand the identity of His son.

Sure. . .however, this could just as easily be true of any religion - which means that the miracles of any faith could actually be evidence of the god of any faith.

How does the universe work, where did you get your knowledge of this, and how does it conflict with how the Bible portrays how the universe works?

The universe works according to natural laws which we've learned about through empiricism. Be honest, if a Muslim came up to you and started talking about how Allah healed his nephew of cancer is your first inclination really going to be to take his story at face value? Or are you going to start with the most plausible natural explanation that many types of cancer can go into remission?

p.s. I’m still wondering why you haven’t responded to my post about eternal suffering. Why would you continue to believe in a doctrine that’s not taught in Scripture…unless it’s useful in making you feel justified for not believing in the God of the Bible?

Time, mostly. As it's the end of the school year my schedule's rather full what with state testing, science fair, field trips, and general end-of-the-year insanity. Don't worry, I'll get to it eventually.




Lurker

[LookingUp]

Yeah I'm pretty much the lone agnostic in my entire extended family.

Do you all live in the same town? Do they constantly try to get you back on the track of faith?

What do you think of your parents and their choice to spend their lives living it out for Jesus?

Jesus seems to have been a fairly remarkable individual with some ideas that were clearly ahead of his time.

Which ideas were ahead of his time?

However, as with many second-hand accounts of remarkable individuals that are only written down decades and/or centuries after their deaths fanciful stories were likely added that probably never occurred.

Have you ever read any books exploring the historical reliability of the New Testament? If so, which ones? Are there any books of antiquity that you consider historically reliable? If so, which ones?

I would think "fair" would be god not intentionally creating a world in which millions of innocent people suffer and die in agony from disease, starvation, natural disasters, and war for tens of thousands of years.

We broached this topic earlier, but how can genuine love be actualized if genuine hate is not at least possible? And wouldn’t actualized hate lead to poverty, disease, and human suffering? I honestly don’t know how we can have a world where the freedom to genuinely love is at all possible if the freedom to do otherwise isn’t a reality.

If you can cure a child of cancer but choose not too - that is unfair, if you can choose to cure a child of cancer, choose not too, and instead decide to spend that time giving rich, healthy kids lollipops it's sickeningly so.

What makes you think God is choosing to do one thing OVER another thing? My oldest son continues to be plagued with a condition he was born with. We’ve prayed for him to be cured, but he hasn’t been cured. Recently, his brother was suffering from a migraine, so we prayed for him. His migraine passed quickly after prayer. There’s no way for us to know for sure if God healed our younger son or not, but let’s assume He did. We do not perceive that God chose to heal our younger son OVER (or instead of) our older son. Our perception is that God is working in both of their lives in different ways. More importantly, our older son doesn’t feel cheated. He realizes that we live in an imperfect world full of disease and death and that God answers only some prayers of healing. We don’t know the reasons for this for certain, but I suspect it’s because there is a true battle going on between good and evil, and thus God can’t answer all prayer. I believe that God’s omnipotence is hindered by many factors. If God could give us the cure for cancer, He would.

When you watch people die in agony from conditions brought on by abject poverty, horrendous diseases, lack of clean water, etc, you tend to gain a new perspective on human suffering. Now imagine that you watch them do so whilst praying with the utmost sincerity for god to grant them relief, or to grant some kind of relief to their child only to be met with silence.

I’ve seen people die of horrendous diseases. Loved ones. And they died believers. You think you have a good argument against the existence of God, but even the ones plagued with poverty, lack of clean water, and disease believe in God. Why hasn’t it given them a “new perspective”?

Do you realize that many of the ones dying from poverty while praying for their suffering child would be pained to know that you have lost faith because of their suffering? And that they died believers while you are not?

Now consider the individual who just happened to be born into a wealthy first world country with clean water, access to education and modern medicine, who says that god intervened into the universe to help them pay a bill or get a parking spot. How can that not make you feel ill?

Why would another’s beliefs on this have any impact on me at all? Why would my relationship with the one true God be at all impacted because someone thinks God gave them a parking space? What another thinks God does or doesn’t do for them has no impact on what God really does and doesn’t do.

Knowing that there are literally millions of people who could benefit infinitely more from an even more modest intervention by a supposedly all-powerful god. How could such a god be considered anything but callous and cruel?

What would you call someone who had a cure for cancer that they could distribute to every child on earth with no effort or cost to themselves, who chose to let those children continue to suffer and die and instead spent his time making sure healthy people got good parking spots?

Why would you assume this person’s declaration that God got them a parking space is accurate? I mean, of course it’s absurd if God is going about getting people parking places instead of healing little children with cancer. Assuming He is real, do you really think God works that way?

Sure. . .however, this could just as easily be true of any religion - which means that the miracles of any faith could actually be evidence of the god of any faith.

Incorrect. The miracles aren’t of the faith (or religion); the miracles are of God. This means that the miracles of God are evidence of God. We see God healing and working in the lives of people of all kinds of religions and faith. This should tell us something about the God of creation. Miracles are evidence of God. God is for creation, His creatures. Through miracles, God is not saying something about the religion with which you’ve aligned yourself; He’s saying something about Himself.

The universe works according to natural laws which we've learned about through empiricism.

How does that contradict how the Bible portrays how the universe works?

Be honest, if a Muslim came up to you and started talking about how Allah healed his nephew of cancer is your first inclination really going to be to take his story at face value? Or are you going to start with the most plausible natural explanation that many types of cancer can go into remission?

It depends on the details.

Time, mostly. As it's the end of the school year my schedule's rather full what with state testing, science fair, field trips, and general end-of-the-year insanity. Don't worry, I'll get to it eventually.

OK, great.

[claybevan]

[QUOTE=Itinerant Lurker;2839761]Up until not even a year ago I was a Christian with a very open heart - in fact I'd say my heart still is open. I just don't hear anything


Lurker[/QUOT

Do you ever think about asking the opposite question ' if there's no God then why is there so much love, laughter and joy in the world? i know it's a cop out to answer a question with a question but if you could have a stab at an answer for that one I'll have a go at answering your original question, Have you ever read G.K. Chesterton' book 'Orthodoxy' it's a good un! and relevant to your original question.