Kept by the Lord
What makes someone cease being a skeptic and turn and believe on Christ and the message found in the Scripture? It really has nothing to do with rationalizing every jot and tittle.Originally Posted by Tirapu
To a man that is perishing the word of God is foolishness to Him.
Kept by the Lord
It's a horse a piece. I would argue that matter and reality itself and all the things within it are obviously the result of a design and not random generation. If you look at all of the things required to keep existence going and for life to even be possible here and you analyze the probability of it happening by chance you will see that it is an impossibility. Not "difficult" or "unlikely" but flat out impossible. That is of course after you put aside the idea that all matter spontaneously generated from absolutely nothing.
Not that I am intending to debate this but skeptics are skeptics because they are unregenerated. Only by God's grace will they understand. After all it is He that grants knowledge. There are going to be people here on this earth that will hear God's word and will always remain skeptical and those people will perish with out the needed sacrifice. I'm sure you have heard the "wide road" and the "narrow road". The wide road is full of all sorts of skepticism and heresies minor and major. In the end what matters is what you do when the Gospel is presented to you. If you reject it then you already know that answer.
Coffee Break
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Not true. While the truth cannot always be obtained, it is objectively determined - not subjectively determined.
How can you know that for sure?That's not my problem, and honestly, it doesn't affect my salvation if you don't accept God.
Where should I look for evidence of God? I'd think the best place to start is with Christians who claim to have evidence of God. But what they present as evidence isn't actually evidence of what they think it is. Example, they'll point to the trees and say that's evidence of God, when it's only evidence of trees.What I really want to know is: Do you actually look for evidence of God, or, are you just going to sit there and pretend that we should hand over evidence of God on a silver platter for you?
And when science unveils that it wasn't "God" or the supernatural and it is just a natural phenomenon, that part of God disappears.The universe is expanding from a known, single point in space-time. We are expanding outward, from that one single point! All calculations from now going back to that single point, shows that all laws of physics break down into gibberish the closer we get to "zero". Why is this? Maybe the simplest explanation is the most plausible, and "God" being the simplest answers, is the correct one?
There is no evidence of a God.The problem is, we seek "proof" of God in a universe that has boundaries, and God has no boundaries: He is infinite. How can we say there is no God, in a universe with physical laws that God created, when God is above that which He created? How do you define infinity, and set boundaries for infinity? How can you?
Where did you learn that the universe and its physical laws were created by God?
If God created the universe and its physical laws, what created God?
That's only proof that Babylon isn't inhabited and that someone wrote that God told us no one would live there anymore. It isn't proof of God. This sounds like a self fulfilled prophecy to me.We've yet to explore all the depths of the ocean or the far reaches of space. But for proof a little closer to home, Babylon is still not inhabited by anyone and the bible tells us that God told us no one is going to live there anymore.
My eyes and ears are wide open. Where should I look for proof of God?There is proof, but I assure you, you're not looking hard enough. Free will, is part of that proof of God, and the bible explains this and a multitude of other things if only you'd listen.
Very Conspiratorial.
Not true. Science tells us that this could very well be, for all intents and purposes, a mere alternate reality that could change at any moment. Through "M" theory, technically if another membrane crosses through our current reality, it could change everything in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye. This is also backed up by quantum theory and currently emerging information theory, which says that the entire universe and everything contained in it could be the imagination of a bacteria of a rock. Reality is, therefore, a choice, and self-evident of free will.
Through free will, we reject God, and therefore, reject reality as God sees it. Hence, why it is written in the bible, that they who are with sin are blind. If you can't even admit that you're in sin, you are blind to your own sin, that you reject God as being the creator of the universe, of which has been almost conclusively been proven to be expanding from a single point in space-time.
How can you tell me otherwise, knowing this is true?
Because God came to us, personally, and told us himself through Jesus, that I am only responsible for me. My actions and words, are only evidence of what I believe, and I believe God. That's all you have to work with, and it isn't my fault if you don't believe me. It isn't up to me to change your mind for you. It's up to YOU to choose: Free will.How can you know that for sure?
And so, we end up in the dilemma of what evidence is sufficient to you that proves God's existence. What do you think I should do? How do I change your mind?Where should I look for evidence of God? I'd think the best place to start is with Christians who claim to have evidence of God. But what they present as evidence isn't actually evidence of what they think it is. Example, they'll point to the trees and say that's evidence of God, when it's only evidence of trees.
To the frail of faith, yes. But we've looked to ourselves when seeking answers for thousands of years. Instead of asking God for help, for answers, for justice and liberty... We're trying to do it ourselves. So of course, science, which is primarily atheistic by dogmatic study, is fervently working to have proven answers without benefit of God.And when science unveils that it wasn't "God" or the supernatural and it is just a natural phenomenon, that part of God disappears.
Yet the more that atheistic scientists try to prove God doesn't exist in a universe, a reality, He created... The more they come up empty handed. That to me, is prophecy fulfilled. Time and again, it happens, and we've reached the point that we are ready to manipulate time and space itself. Hence, it is written, "And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do." (Genesis 11:6)
There's all the proof I need. God said it, it came true. Therefore, God exists.
This endless cycle of "what created that" ends with "God".There is no evidence of a God.
Where did you learn that the universe and its physical laws were created by God?
If God created the universe and its physical laws, what created God?
You see, in mathematics, this is the characteristic of being "undefined". In our feeble minds, we attempt to explain what infinity exactly is, but in reality God is infinity. Literally. You can't put search parameters on that. You can't divide it by zero. You can't finish counting infinity. And vainly, we've tried to prove that there's an end to pi, just like the need to explain everything without benefit of a God. We want to be able to quantify and name and label and fit everything into its perfect spot, but you can't do that with God. Sorry.
How could "God tell us" if "God doesn't exist"?That's only proof that Babylon isn't inhabited and that someone wrote that God told us no one would live there anymore. It isn't proof of God. This sounds like a self fulfilled prophecy to me.
In your heart. What keeps you from believing, really? What past wrong has been done against you, to forsake the God who cares so much about you, that He died for you?My eyes and ears are wide open. Where should I look for proof of God?
Science puts a limit on everything, seeks to explain everything. But you can't explain God or the feeling that you get from knowing that your place in heaven is assured. It feels like the radiant color of gold, with the sweet taste of honey-wine. That doesn't make sense at all, but that is how I explain it because it just can't be conveyed in simple terms. It can't be conveyed in text. You have to feel it to know, and to know you have to believe. Gotta take that leap of faith, friend.
Science can only attempt to explain what God has done, but that is not proof that there is no God, because you can't prove a negative in science! Believe me, if you talk to God and sincerely ask for help, He'll give it to you. But you have to do things His way. There is a clear "right" and "wrong" way to do things, by which we are judged by God's perfect moral standard. Jesus is that perfect moral standard, doing harm to no one, healing many people, feeding many people... And yet he was put to death for it? Come on man, it's not "too good to be true", it's just plain "true". It's real. It's a reality.
The best part is, all you have to do, is accept Jesus' outstretched arms. Ask for forgiveness, sincerely. Let it flow from the heart, not logic. Love isn't logical. Love is a miracle!
John 10 (KJV)
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
fellow servant
The evidence is the miracles that still happen today:
...And the stories of God’s provision and protection are nothing short of miraculous,
and in truth, too many to recount in detail. Mines exploding underneath vehicles full of
Marines – injuring none. Mortars falling down around us – throwing men fifteen feet in
the air…men who got up without so much as a scratch. RPG’s striking vehicles loaded
with as many as twenty-five Marines - harming none of them. Waking up next to Iraqi
machine-gun bunkers that we’d never even seen in the dark. Marines getting run over by
Humvees with not a single broken bone to show for it. Worship services being broken up
by suicidal-attacks; yet where none of our men were hurt or injured...
...Marines near the front of the column said the sky looked like a laser show as rockets and
machine gun tracers were fired at us from every angle. One company alone (twelve
vehicles carrying 160 men) sustained 33 direct impacts from RPG’s.
At one point, our CO considered calling in over the radio the three words that no
commander ever wants to repeat in battle - “Issue-in-doubt.” It means, in all likelihood,
victory is impossible; defeat imminent. LtCol. Oliver North called it “The worst day of
fighting in the war for U.S. Marines.” At every corner, we were ambushed. And it lasted
for nine hours.
But here’s the miracle. By every assessment, during that nine-hour ordeal, our
battalion should have sustained untold casualties and countless dead. Over 1,000 RPG’s
were shot at us, during a nine-hour ambush, in a city that we didn’t know. And what’s
more, most all of our Marines were exposed the entire time as they stood in the top of
their armored vehicles firing back.
But by the end of the day, when the smoke had cleared, only one man had been
killed – Gunnery Sergeant Jeffrey Bohr, a 22 year veteran; killed as he was calling in a
med-evac with one hand and firing his M-16 with the other. 75 were injured - most of
whom would go on to experience full recovery and strength. The fact is, many, many
Marines should have died that day, but it just didn’t happen. Marine Corps Chaplain Lt. Carey Cash 1/5 Marines.
http://www.ifca.org/home/140001498/1...e_Presence.pdf
GAL 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
MT 24:43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
As opposed to the bad man that does nothing?
AMOS 6:3 Ye that put far away the evil day, and cause the seat of violence to come near;
guest
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I'm ex mission field
I can tell you right out that miracles still happen today. Broken bones healed, car running without gas, riots stopped, The dead raised, and that's just a bit of my experience.
But the biggest and most continuous miracle is when someone comes to Christ because that kind of faith cannot come from the person, especially in a world where just about everything is designed to disprove the very existence of God altogether. To come to Christ is to defy human logic but people still do come to Christ because God gives them the measure of faith needed to do so.
(reps[pos] ||= []) << rep
Perhaps, but evidence of miracles is never sufficient. The Jews coming our of Egypt watched God perform miracles of the greatest manner. Yet almost immediately they turned from God and sinned greatly against Him. How then when they saw with their own eyes would having some sort of after the fact evidence be sufficient for us today?
In the end, it comes down to belief, faith and trust in God.
Citizen
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He did not come to me personally. Maybe through others and through the bible (and if He did, I missed him), but not personally.
This is the thing : I CAN'T CHOOSE what to BELIEVE - I have a certain level of confidence in something being true or not, based on what I see.
In fact, to me, there's no such thing as belief in the way you mean here.
If you can choose what to believe, you are as different from me as you can possibly imagine.
Ragamuffin for God
I have only heard/read about one Damascus road incident in my entire life, and that happened to Saul. However, if you are willing to listen for Him, he will show Himself to you: in that still, small voice in your soul.He did not come to me personally. Maybe through others and through the bible (and if He did, I missed him), but not personally.
There is plenty of hard evidence showing the validity of the Bible, and of Jesus. And it is hard evidence: no matter what the naysayers may say, there are many historical facts that can help provide the concrete proofs you seem to be looking for. I spent 5 years trying to disprove the Bible: the evidence I discovered/uncovered, in the end, led me to Him, and the only Truth there is out there.This is the thing : I CAN'T CHOOSE what to BELIEVE - I have a certain level of confidence in something being true or not, based on what I see.
In fact, to me, there's no such thing as belief in the way you mean here.
If you can choose what to believe, you are as different from me as you can possibly imagine.
In Him,
CC
Romans 8:15-17
Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to.C.S. Lewis
You're gonna make a difference when you lay down your life, and in complete submission to God, choose to die with Him in service to other people.
Rich Mullins
Attachment 11169
Your Huckleberry
Invoking M theory as what science "tells" us is a stretch at best. It is not even widely accepted within the string theory community, of which every branch and derivation is incomplete and experimentally unverified. Not to mention, even if everything did change (and I really dont see that you or anyone is in a position to really predict what these "changes" would be precisely) there would be a new local reality with its own set of properties that are not necessarily inscrutable (outside of the idea that it might kill everything that is capable of scruting)...or as you seem to want to suggest, that they would necessarily be contingent upon the will, perception or apprehension of humans. Also if membranes are a reality, the changes that they could affect do not appear to be influenced by what or how we think, but are phenomena that in part make up the reality of our existence...their interactions with each other would simply be another behavior in existence no matter how unusual or catastrophic the outcome.
This makes me think that you have no idea what you are talking about, actually your entire post leaves me with that impression (at least the science-ish bits). Not only have you made the pretty exotic assertion that quantum and information theory support the idea that bacteria have "imaginations", you've failed to recognize that even if this were true (which is a huge indulgence in itself) our reality would not be shaped by the will of the imagined beings (humans), but the will of the bacteria which is doing the imagining. Honestly though engaging this is pretty silly on my part, because you haven't really said anything coherent, but I think I'd really enjoy talking to you about understanding of these subjects.
Last edited by oscarkipling; May 27th 2012 at 06:41 PM.
" Fellas, this visit's top secret, so no one is to know about it except the senior officers, scientists, and one conspiracy nut no one will believe. " -Probably Barack Obama
Citizen
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Well, I am waiting
I'm not looking to call the bible 'valid' or 'invalid' - it is what it is, and it is on my shelf! I want to know what to make of the fact that many members of my family live by it, and because of that I have (maybe like you) tried hard to research it - but all I've found is that it's a set of translations and compilations of very old texts about which little is known - in some cases, it seems we don't even know when they were written down, or who by.
Even Jesus - everyone (even most athiests) seem to think He was a real figure, but I don't see why - is there even a single eyewitness account that we know to be reliable? and if so, how?
Posting Freak
Hello nimrod,
If you are looking for physical evidence which supports the bible, I would start by looking into all the physical evidence of a world-wide flood which occurred sometime in the last several thousand years. (The bible puts this flood at about 4500 years ago.) The amount of physical evidence for a world-wide catestrophic flood is staggering, but those who are unwilling to accept the truth of this event (because of its implications) will continue to look for other explanations for the literal mounds of physical evidence which point to the event.
Also, there is a "mountain" of evidence in the Arabian desert supporting the exodus account.
I am sure you could find many books which discuss this topic. And one could start by reading the first 4 verses from Luke. Luke, though not an eyewitness himself of Jesus' life, was a companion of Paul's who would have had access to many eyewitness accounts - including many of the apostles themselves. From what I've heard, the historical accuracy of Luke has been shown to be outstanding, Luke having even provided some tid-bits of histroical fact which have recently been shown to fit with more recent extrabiblical evidence.
And we also have portions of some very early manuscripts - some portions which were likely written not much more than 100 years from the time of the events. From a historical perspective, there is more evidence to support the accuracy of the bible than any other ancient text.
Citizen
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I did look into evidence for a global flood in recent times but as far as I can remember I didn't find much - the nearest I found was that there may have been a big surge from the Mediterranian into the Black sea.
I went to Christian schools all the way through to University, and yet we were never taught that there was really a global flood in recent times. What do you think is the evidence for such a thing?
More generally though, I'm not really looking simply for physical evidence that supports the bible. I don't doubt that much - even most - of what is in the Bible is historically accurate. But that's not of much help... for example you can read any novel set in a period of time and much of what's written will be in accord with the history of that time, but the main characters and important plot events are usually fictional. So you can see I need something a bit different... something that lights the bible to help me see it as a message from God... right now all I can see is an old book that I would find a lot more out about if only I had time....
True, but sadly books are made to sell and the market demands that they say something 'new'; They seem often to be very extreme interpretations rather than clear and detailed presentations of history... hence why I tend to stick to the interweb.
Again, I'm sure that's true about there being more evidence to support the accuracy of the bible than any other ancient text - but I don't consciously live my life by any other ancient text either. Let's say I want to learn about Jesus from Luke - Luke is a man who supposedly knew Paul, who even himself is not said to have ever met Jesus. And then if I just look at Wikipedia, it tells me that the Gospel of luke might have been written in the the later decades of the 1st century, and that the earliest manuscripts are later still... hardly a primary source.
I'm not a 'Naysayer'.... I'm not someone 'unwilling to accept the truth'. It's just that mankind hasn't looked after Jesus' story well enough for me to see the Bible as anything more than an old book that I don't really have the time or education to understand.
ATB
awestruckchild
You are completely correct that we cannot just choose to believe something we cannot see. If this were the case, we could expect to see roughly as many people running around believing in dragons as do believe in Jesus. We have no choice but to believe in what we SEE and experience as being real.
When blind men followed behind Jesus, He would ask them: what do you want?
They would say: we want to see.
There was not a single instance of Jesus refusing to give a blind man his sight when he asked for it.
The spirit of these stories and words is that we are all those men born blind.
But we don't know that we are blind in spirit.
This may sound ridiculous to you, but if you ask Him to let you see Him, that He is real, He will grant you this.
So many people do not say they have literally met Him just because they chose Him over, say, unicorns or dragons. They say they have literally met Him because they have.
No one sees Him until He heals their blindness in spirit.
No man simply CHOOSES to suddenly see Him. This is something only He can grant.
Now, AFTER a mans blindness is healed, then he has choices to make as to whether to follow or to go back to the world. This is where free will comes into play, not in the actual healing of their sight.
So, it might sound ridiculous to you right now, but if you ask for your sight, He will give it to you.
"knowledge makes arrogant but love edifies"
Citizen
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It doesn't sound ridiculous... I have prayed honestly and with my heart for God to allow me to see him.
Not because of considering evidence, but because people I love and respect said that I should.
The problem is that nothing seems to have really changed in me... at least not yet...
I am prepared to wait until the last moments of my life, of course.
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