How I see scriptures now

[Boo]

After devoting so much time to rectifying scriptures in my mind, getting it all straight, I have found that sometimes I try too hard in the wrong way.

I have recently had to ask myself "why?" I think I have determined for myself that there are times I have to reconcile scriptures because they seem illogical when compared to other scriptures. Sometimes, they have seemed contradictory. Other times, and this is not so much for me as those with whom I have spend time discussing scriptures, because the finding goes against a previous teaching.

I have not had a great deal of history in churches, so I don't have as many pre-taught beliefs to worry about. I'd probably have lived a cleaner life if I had, but it is all history now and can't be changed.

I have come to a few simple thoughts that seem to help me now. My current mode goes like this:

I lean not on my own understanding. That being the case, I have to pick someone else's understanding - and I pick the writer/author of scriptures. If the author states something, then I accept that the teaching is true.

I quit trying to engineer the lesson and instead use the faith like that of a child. (Not to be confused with investigating to ensure that no translation biases have changed the words on me.) When I am comfortable that the word in English were accurately translated from the avilable manuscripts, I accept the words given.

When a truth is revealed, I accept it. It doesn't matter if I like it, if I want it, or if it hairlips a goat, I accept it. If it goes against a teaching that I recieved in the past, so be it. The scriptures hold more authority than the words given by a man.

Before someone writes to tell me not to forget to consider that some scripture was written to a specific group to address a specific problem, I know that. I accept that as well. Part of accepting the scriptures with the faith of a child is to know that listening to Daddy chew out my brother may well contain a lesson for me. It is all instructive and needs to be taken for guidance. God didn't not cover every eventuality with a written instruction, but He did give us a resource to go with when questions arise.

Now, in dealing with a revelation from scripture - I know that I can err. When a truth seems to be unacceptable to so many people, I go to a few trusted and kindred spirits and present my finding. Sometimes, the person I go to doesn't like the revelation, so I ask that person to persuade me of my error. If they can't, it firms up my finding. If they can, I go back to zero and start again.

I think it is very important to have people who will discuss issues with us that we question. My studies would be incomplete if I didn't have people to go to. While the final word is from scriptures, my efforts to remove my error from the finding are important.

Now I have three methods of recording my knowledge. I have a granite slate that absolute truth rests in. I have a clay slate that those things I believe I know are kept on until time to fire up the kiln. I have "sticky notes" that are standing by for research. Those items are less pressing or God has not given them to me yet for searching out.

Anyone else have a method that works for them?

[awestruckchild]

Wow Boo!
Very good!
There were a lot of warnings about what leaven does, but we all just assume that we have none.
I do another thing that I'll try to explain.
It is pretty simple, but I find myself not doing it pretty often and so I make the corrections.
I gather it all up and I reread the Gospel. If it seems to war with something Jesus has said, I know that my understanding needs work or I need to toss something out.

[Ceegen]

Anyone else have a method that works for them?

That's pretty much what I do.

Now, in dealing with a revelation from scripture - I know that I can err. When a truth seems to be unacceptable to so many people, I go to a few trusted and kindred spirits and present my finding. Sometimes, the person I go to doesn't like the revelation, so I ask that person to persuade me of my error. If they can't, it firms up my finding. If they can, I go back to zero and start again.

Except this part, I don't just entirely throw something out if someone gives a good rebuttal of it. Satan is very good at what he does, and I know that spurious answers is his specialty. So if I don't "get it" or have someone seemingly refute it before my very eyes (and it doesn't "feel right"), I chalk it up to just "not knowing" what it means and saving it for later. Maybe I got one part of it right in studying, but need the rest revealed to me at a latter time? I trust God to let me know when it is time, because some times accepting a rebuttal to something may mean I am accepting a spurious answer. I don't accept spurious answers and simply go back to the drawing board, I patiently wait for the real answer, however long it takes.

[Colight]

Anyone else have a method that works for them?

Starting out find a great pastor lead you thru the basic doctrines.
One that teaches from Hebrew and Greek, the base languages are core to understanding scripture.
As you grow you will find doctrine is like a house of cards, they build and support each other.

When some one counters a doctrine there are other supporting doctrines that scream out how it is in error to disregard that which they support. Over time it becomes a refuge from the confusion and blowing winds that fill the lives of many Christians now days.

[Saved7]

Anyone else have a method that works for them?

That's it Boo!
I started out thinking that God couldn't teach me and I needed others to do so and found myself being tossed about all over the place. Eventually I found myself trying to force understanding, which is where I found myself stumbling just as much. Soon, I realized what the scriptures say is true, the Holy Spirit will teach us in ALL TRUTH. So I set everything I learned aside, started over from scratch and everything that I had been taught by man that was good got confirmed and God took me even deeper in those things. And all those things that were not good, got tossed out with the garbage. Now I know to take everything I hear that "sounds and feels good" with a grain of salt and let God's Word be my filter. But everything else that I learn I share it with those that I respect in the Lord, most of whom are found here on this board, and see what kind of feedback I get. But I never force myself to go deeper on that subject, I just let God guide me deeper into whatever He's teaching me, and wait. Like it's been discussed before, I realized that it's like a whole bunch of links, or a two sided coin when He teaches me something. There are deeper levels on one subject, and other subjects that connect to that subject and each has a deeper level. Oh the joy and the riches contained in His Word, the joy of knowing Him more!!!

Except this part, I don't just entirely throw something out if someone gives a good rebuttal of it. Satan is very good at what he does, and I know that spurious answers is his specialty. So if I don't "get it" or have someone seemingly refute it before my very eyes (and it doesn't "feel right"), I chalk it up to just "not knowing" what it means and saving it for later. Maybe I got one part of it right in studying, but need the rest revealed to me at a latter time? I trust God to let me know when it is time, because some times accepting a rebuttal to something may mean I am accepting a spurious answer. I don't accept spurious answers and simply go back to the drawing board, I patiently wait for the real answer, however long it takes.

This is an excellent point. This is where discernment comes in. Don't just immediately throw something out because of a good rebuttal. I've done that only to find that I wished I hadn't years later when the Lord showed me again that I was on the right track, I just needed to be patient and wait for further instruction on it, or it could have taken me in the wrong direction. If some rebuttal is good, just hang on to both that thing and the rebuttal, and leave it all on the back burner to stew for a while, God will do the rest.

[Saved7]

MOD NOTE: I had to delete a couple of posts because they disregarded the OP. Let's keep this thread on topic, please.

[awestruckchild]

I am laughing, and probably should not be...but I can't help it.
Someone said a few posts back that doctrine is like a house of cards.
I have found this is true, but not in the way the poster means it.
A house of cards falls over very, very easily, and so does some doctrine.
But if you build your doctrine on the Rock, it is completely stable!

[Dani H]

My only method nowadays is to approach Scripture with the thought in mind that I don't know anything and I'm here to be instructed. That keeps me from reading things into things that aren't there.

My other method is this: If I read it, and I understand it, then I gotta live it. That's when it gets real interesting, especially since God is so very fond of dropping me into all kinds of situations that let me practice.

I'm also a huge fan of history. If you're going to study Scripture, then context is everything. As is perspective.

[Boo]

Thank you to all who contributed so far. I feel like I am on a journey through scripture and am fascinated by the things I am seeing in it. I had not realized that any book so short could be so full of teaching.

In reference to the "house of cards," I would not have used that term for the reason stated. When my doctrine is built, it is more like a brick building. The pieces all have to fit correctly and each brick supports another. If a brick is out of place, construction stops until the correct placement is found. Also - all available bricks must be used. We cannot disregard the bricks that we don't like.

Just to clarify one point that I didn't realize was easy to take incorrectly.

For me, a rebuttal to a doctrine in scripture requires that the person providing the rebuttal be able to show me why a verse means something other than what I thought it did. The people with whom I discuss scriptures believe, as I do, that all scripture is true and good information. The must be established from the start or there will be no purpose in discussing anything.

When I present a finding, it is with verses from scripture that tie together and support each other and any differences that might be confusing can be cleared up easily. Mostly, I find that the problem is how we take a word in English to have a different meaning than the translators meant it to be and what meaning it held thousands of years ago. The Hebrew and Greek dictionaries come into play as well as some historical background.

However, when a person who does not like my finding tries to prove that I am in error but cannot dispute verses in such a way, their argument against the finding is baseless. I have found that some people just don't like a doctrine, but they cannot prove the doctrine wrong in scriptures. Usually it is because they were taught a different belief for so many years and don't want to accept that they have been mistaken all those years.

Finding a "great Pastor" who can teach in Hebrew and Greek would be awesome, but those people can also ignore truths. I have a library full of commentaries by people with PHD behind their name who ignore verses that I find myself questioning. I have looked for an explantion for difficult chapters in books and find gaps in the books for the verses that are in question. The writer pretends that those verses are not there. Sadly, I also have found that the writers of such books take verses and document doctrine and never contend with verses that dispute what they present.

If there is one argument that I will not accept, it is the one that ignores other verses that dispute a claim. Every argument comes to an end when the dispute comes from an emotional response against a finding. You might be surprised how often that can happen.

As I said in the OP, we must read the scriptures and accept on faith like a child. We must lean on the understanding of the Holy Spirit inspired writers who gave scripture to us and not on our own. Scriptures mold us; we don't mold scriptures. Sadly, that is what I see so much of.

Please tell me if you see an error in this thought - if a scripture requires dissection and parsing by a multi-lingual PHD in order to understand it; we are approaching it incorrectly. That is not to say that such an educated man cannot help, but I don't put any more trust in him because of credentials than I do a brother whom I know has the gifts of the Spirit in him. The ability to teach and the gift of knowledge comes from the Holy Spirit; not a university.

P.S. I think Satan employs PHDs, too.

[Colight]

Boo

In reference to the "house of cards," I would not have used that term for the reason stated. When my doctrine is built, it is more like a brick building. The pieces all have to fit correctly and each brick supports another. If a brick is out of place, construction stops until the correct placement is found. Also - all available bricks must be used. We cannot disregard the bricks that we don't like.

There is teachings behind the verses, verses are the ripple on the water.
Doctrine is the fish that just moved under the water, so when I get into the discussion of Scripture. I like to discuss the fish.. Not the ripples they make,

1 Timothy 4:6 In pointing out these things to the brethren, you will be a good servant of Christ Jesus, constantly nourished on the words of the faith and of the sound doctrine which you have been following.

The reason I used house of Cards, is if you nullify one doctrine.
Then there is a ripple that affects the whole structure.
With Bricks there is not the interlocking dependence with in the structure, many bricks structures can still stand and be solid with missing bricks. My main point is not of structural soundness rather a point of how it all interlocks together, and how each doctrine has several base supports.

What occurs in many "debates" on scripture is people will take a solid stand on their pet view point and defend it, even to the point where they tear down other doctrines to keep their pet view point. These sub doctrines they just tore down, are part of the support structures of their pet doctrine, Soon there is no doctrines to support their view point and it is crashes down into a logical fallacy.,

[awestruckchild]

Boo, your last post ( all of them actually) was very good.
I have resolved to try very hard to just read but to stay out of a thread in which what is being debated honestly does not matter to a mans salvation. The only time I know I will not be able to do it is when I see someone telling another that Jesus did not mean what He said, or that they cannot understand what He said because they fail to understand something ELSE that He didn't say, or if they use scripture to argue against what He said. If I perceive the Holy Spirit in someone, I am also less likely to intervene because it is His job to guide them along to all truth. But if I see someone and am pretty certain that I don't yet see the Spirit at all, then I will intervene strenuously to help their birth if there is any way to lead them back to the Gospel that others try to lead away from. I will do everything I possibly can to point out where something is not being taken captive to the obedience of Christ. I don't know why I have such fierceness about the Gospel coming first and the rest being in subjection, but I do.

[Boo]

Yes, I can see your view. While you are referring to the ease with which a persons belief system can topple, I am referring to the strength that a solid view of scriptures can provide. Depending on how we study, how we learn, and how we diligently study PRIOR to forming or accepting a doctrine determines whether our faith is a house of cards or a house of brick.

Then again, I can be all wet, because a stubborn person who has solidly accepted false doctrine can live in a stone house on the wrong side of the fence.

Boo

There is teachings behind the verses, verses are the ripple on the water.
Doctrine is the fish that just moved under the water, so when I get into the discussion of Scripture. I like to discuss the fish.. Not the ripples they make,

1 Timothy 4:6 In pointing out these things to the brethren, you will be a good servant of Christ Jesus, constantly nourished on the words of the faith and of the sound doctrine which you have been following.

The reason I used house of Cards, is if you nullify one doctrine.
Then there is a ripple that affects the whole structure.
With Bricks there is not the interlocking dependence with in the structure, many bricks structures can still stand and be solid with missing bricks. My main point is not of structural soundness rather a point of how it all interlocks together, and how each doctrine has several base supports.

What occurs in many "debates" on scripture is people will take a solid stand on their pet view point and defend it, even to the point where they tear down other doctrines to keep their pet view point. These sub doctrines they just tore down, are part of the support structures of their pet doctrine, Soon there is no doctrines to support their view point and it is crashes down into a logical fallacy.,

[Boo]

Awestruckchild, I love your icon. I feel exactly the same way.

I have discovered through diligently searching all scriptures that some of the things that we think do not affect our salvation actually do. I don't usually discuss that with some people because they are not ready to delve into the scriptures that make that point known. Unfortunately, many of them will never be able to discuss such things because they are content to be where they are at and are resting in limited understanding with no desire to change. I, too, can only pray that their minds be given to hunger to seek out God's truth. I can do nothing to change people. (I'm doing well to accomplish the needed changes in myself and then can only be accomplished with God's help.)

If you do nothing else, at least focus on the instructions that Jesus gave us and let the Apostles explain to you what the accepting of Jesus as your King requires of you and what freedom it provides. I cannot lean on my own understanding, but I can lean on the understanding of Paul, James, and John with no problem. Luke tells me how the early church started and gives me the background that I need. They, together, explain what "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ" entails. Like a child, I accept the truth from those teachers. All teaching of living men requires verification.

Your desire to help those who seem not to walk in the Spirit is a good thing. However, we are all supposed to help each other in our growth through fellowship and love for one another. Knowing what to do and what to say is not easy, and sometimes just being there is all we need to do.

Boo, your last post ( all of them actually) was very good.
I have resolved to try very hard to just read but to stay out of a thread in which what is being debated honestly does not matter to a mans salvation. The only time I know I will not be able to do it is when I see someone telling another that Jesus did not mean what He said, or that they cannot understand what He said because they fail to understand something ELSE that He didn't say, or if they use scripture to argue against what He said. If I perceive the Holy Spirit in someone, I am also less likely to intervene because it is His job to guide them along to all truth. But if I see someone and am pretty certain that I don't yet see the Spirit at all, then I will intervene strenuously to help their birth if there is any way to lead them back to the Gospel that others try to lead away from. I will do everything I possibly can to point out where something is not being taken captive to the obedience of Christ. I don't know why I have such fierceness about the Gospel coming first and the rest being in subjection, but I do.

[Athanasius]

I have discovered through diligently searching all scriptures that some of the things that we think do not affect our salvation actually do. I don't usually discuss that with some people because they are not ready to delve into the scriptures that make that point known. Unfortunately, many of them will never be able to discuss such things because they are content to be where they are at and are resting in limited understanding with no desire to change. I, too, can only pray that their minds be given to hunger to seek out God's truth. I can do nothing to change people. (I'm doing well to accomplish the needed changes in myself and then can only be accomplished with God's help.)

Remember that brief discussion we had through PM, where you completely ignored any Scripture or points I brought up against your position that baptism is salvific? I don't appreciate when you paint others in a bad light, like this. As you seem to consider me part of these 'some people', I really don't appreciate it, because it tells me that your reporting is skewed, having first-hand experience with you. I think it would be a good idea if you could cut the pretense and start being more honest about the actual dealings you have with others. This is just my opinion (the third kind) from the discussion we had, but you don't seem to have thoroughly and diligently searched through Scripture - you can post a good bit of Scripture, but you can't defend it, and you ignore Scripture to the contrary - and you don't seem particular open to honest and challenging discourse.

I mention this because of what you say in the OP:

Now, in dealing with a revelation from scripture - I know that I can err. When a truth seems to be unacceptable to so many people, I go to a few trusted and kindred spirits and present my finding. Sometimes, the person I go to doesn't like the revelation, so I ask that person to persuade me of my error. If they can't, it firms up my finding. If they can, I go back to zero and start again.

This simply isn't my experience. If you're open to discussion, it wasn't at all obvious when we discussed. Perhaps the issue was that the 'some people' you refer to were anonymous, they couldn't recount their side of events. It's unfair, and because I'm part of that 'some people' I'm pointing that out now, regardless of 'how good' your OP sounds.

[Boo]

I'll not engage in a battle of dissention with you. I wrote the OP to present a point, and I did.

I want people to understand that the bible is true and what has been revealed to us through scriptures is true - ALL of scripture; not those verses cherry-picked to support a denominational doctrine. Unfortunately, modern day scholars all attempt to support the denomination of their choice and repeat arguements made at their seminaries like Parrots.

It is a mistake to do that. Being part of a majority in opinion is no gaurantee of truth or accuracy.

According to modern day scholars, the first 1650 years after the resurrection of Jesus Christ, all christians were heretics. They all held central beliefs that are now dismissed. That cannot happen without someone distorting the truth and rendering an opinion that not all scripture is true. The easiest way to distort the truth is to get scholars together to write a paper on it. The masses will follow because it is easier.

Here is an example timeline. Anyone who wants to check it for accuracy, go ahead. I found it very interesting.

1528 Luther states in his Large Catechism “we must be baptized or we cannot be saved”
1609 Englishman John Smyth re-baptizes 40 followers in Amsterdam, starting the Baptist movement
1644 Baptist congregations in London draw up First London Confession, with believer’s baptism by immersion as a central tenet
1649 Westminster Confession affirms infant baptism, but views that baptism is not necessary for salvation
c. 1900 Birth of Pentecostalism, with its emphasis on “baptism with the Holy Ghost and fire”

Now I am off to find someone who can actually help me with understanding the truth.