Discussion of Hebrew Language (New thread from Hebrew Pictographs in Bible Study)

[Yaaqov ben Yisrael]

Shalom

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Yaakov (A 'q' in Yaaqov )

Surely when I read the ancient writings I can get to the meaning of the word without being able to read the language, when I know what each letter means
I studied Hebrew Word Pictures by Dr Frank T Seekins.... an amazing study

Yes there is a "q" in Yaaqov. Ok, please provide me the meaning of the following, without consulting anything other than a chart giving the meaning of the pictographic alphabet.

הסנה בוער באש


והסנה איננו אוכל

Yaaqov ben Yisrael

[Ta-An]

Yes there is a "q" in Yaaqov. Ok, please provide me the meaning of the following, without consulting anything other than a chart giving the meaning of the pictographic alphabet.

הסנה בוער באש


והסנה איננו אוכל

Yaaqov ben Yisrael

I can't do that

[Yaaqov ben Yisrael]

I can't do that

Why can't you do that. You said surely you could simply be knowing what the picture value of the letters were? This is simply a demonstration as to how the Hebrew Pictographic method is not. A viable method for knowing what the Hebrew Text means. If the language were pictographic, and thanks to the new age Hebraist we now know what ancient Hebrew "really" is; then anyone should be able to take the pictographic meaning of the letters and explain what I wrote.

Yaaqov ben Yisrael

[Ta-An]

Why can't you do that. You said surely you could simply be knowing what the picture value of the letters were?

The meaning of the letters ....

ex.
The Hebrew word for brother is ach (alef chet) The word picture tells us that a brother protects like a strong fence.
The Hebrew word for grace is chen (chet nun) The word picture created is to fence or protect life (like a fence that surrounds a garden)

[episkopos]

There is absolutely no proof what so ever that Hebrew was ever written in a pictographic style, it is a fact that the earliest Hebrew writing was in Phoenician letters. Pictographs are not sufficient to provide any useful method of understanding in a written language; not even those languages which utilized picture writing used the pictures to give meaning to the words these pictures formed.

If you claim the Hebrew language was indeed picture writing, and these picture letters gave meaning to the words, then I would love to hear how you would explain the subtle changes between passive, active, the participles and even the various verb stems. In Hebrew, Aramaic, Arabic, and even Assyrian there are verb patterns which are made that are identical in the written form, yet inflected differently depending on the stem, is is active, passive, a participle, etc. There is absolutely no way to provide for this by claiming the picture letters were used to enhance the meaning of the words. If this is what you are claiming, then I have a slew of Semitic verbs I would like to offer for you to demonstrate how the picture letters provide a lucid and informative meaning to them. I will begin with just two simple Hebrew verbs, please use the pictures to explain to me hhow the verbs provides the correct meaning.


ברך יברך למד ילמד these two verbs are spelled the same in both the active and passive; how do you account for this with picture writing?

Yaaqov ben Yisrael

The pictograph element in the Hebrew is not a comprehensive thing. Just as there is not a deeper meaning to every single word in the language. One must not be so rigid when trying to understand a phenomenon. God has placed these "hidden" (in plain sight) words to attract a greater study of His word. There is a great benefit in seeking in the word as for hidden treasure. But we cannot be too scientific and rigid about it. We are trying to follow in the footsteps of our Creator in order to find things He has left for those who would seek after Him. God uses more than one method, in fact, to throw off the "limiters" of what God does.

This practice of seeking deeper is also helpful in the reading of the New Testament as well. The word is like a well that we must go deeper into in order to draw water from. Not EVERY well will seem to have water. But to surmise that there is NO water there is to miss the whole exercise.

Pro 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing (davar or WORD) : but the honour of kings is to search out a matter (davar or WORD).

lehitra-ot!

[Ceegen]

There is absolutely no proof what so ever that Hebrew was ever written in a pictographic style, it is a fact that the earliest Hebrew writing was in Phoenician letters. Pictographs are not sufficient to provide any useful method of understanding in a written language; not even those languages which utilized picture writing used the pictures to give meaning to the words these pictures formed.

Then the words are meaningless, and prophecy is meaningless blind luck.

The words DO mean something. Look deeper, but with the mind not the eyes. The eyes can deceive you of the truth, if you trust only what you see. There are "pictures" and meanings behind the words of the bible, and it is a beautiful picture.

This legalistic approach you take, downplaying the importance of prophecy, is a spiritually dangerous path you're taking. Instead of sticking to dogma, let the evidence of spiritual truths guide you where God wants you to go, rather than where you want to go.

[Yaaqov ben Yisrael]

Then the words are meaningless, and prophecy is meaningless blind luck.

The words DO mean something. Look deeper, but with the mind not the eyes. The eyes can deceive you of the truth, if you trust only what you see. There are "pictures" and meanings behind the words of the bible, and it is a beautiful picture.

This legalistic approach you take, downplaying the importance of prophecy, is a spiritually dangerous path you're taking. Instead of sticking to dogma, let the evidence of spiritual truths guide you where God wants you to go, rather than where you want to go.

Of course all languages paint pictures in the minds eye of those who read the written word; this is simplyh w. languages work. However; it is the words and not othe letters themselves which hold the keys to these mental images.

I am not downplaying prophecy; I am simply returning prophecy to its proper place. There is only one eternal and perfect Torah; it will never change. A prophet is not a lawgiver; on the contrary a prophet's job it to turn the people back to the covenant, the Torah. Even if there were no prophets at all, we will still have a perfect Torah by which to live and find repentance a forgiveness and have communion with God.

Yaaqov ben Yisrael

[Ceegen]

Of course all languages paint pictures in the minds eye of those who read the written word; this is simplyh w. languages work. However; it is the words and not othe letters themselves which hold the keys to these mental images.

I am not downplaying prophecy; I am simply returning prophecy to its proper place. There is only one eternal and perfect Torah; it will never change. A prophet is not a lawgiver; on the contrary a prophet's job it to turn the people back to the covenant, the Torah. Even if there were no prophets at all, we will still have a perfect Torah by which to live and find repentance a forgiveness and have communion with God.

Yaaqov ben Yisrael

And, this is exactly what Jesus wanted us to do. Being the good Jew that he really was, he begged and pleaded with the "religious" Jews of his time, to turn them back towards God. And what happened to him for this? What was his punishment, for crimes he did not commit? Prophecy doesn't change the law, not one bit! But by the terms by which we agree that God is literally, the law. The Word of God is law, and the Word of God was made flesh. Is it not the most wonderful picture, ever?

The only thing that has changed, is that God Himself has come to us, and has boldly declared (First to the Jew, and then to the Gentile) "I forgive you." But we must reach out and accept that forgiveness. This is prophecy fulfilled, that the Jews have become a beacon of light to the Gentiles! Why do you think that animal sacrifices have ceased? That the temple was destroyed? But trust me, the fight isn't over yet. The battle wages on, throughout the world, in YOUR heart and in YOUR mind. We continue to reject God in place of our own explanation of events, and sciences that offer explanations without God in the picture, and firmly plant our banner in opposition to God.

I am a Jew, by heritage a Sephardic Jew. God has sent His people all over the world, and we've indeed become as numerous as the stars, the promise to Abraham fulfilled. I beg with you, and plead with you, see Jesus as a Jew, not what Christianity today has become. There are many things WRONG with Christianity today, and it is because we do have a real enemy: Satan.

Satan is real, because Jesus said that he's real. Jesus cast out demons, and through his defiance of evil, was made perfect by submitting to the laws that he himself wrote! AND He was put to death for it, on Passover of all times! Is this not prophecy? Is this not wonderful? Look into your heart, and see what is keeping you from accepting this truth. Ask God for guidance, and reach out to touch Him with your prayers. He will answer you, but I've heard he only responds if you get his name right: Jesus. Sincerely ask, and let the words flow from the heart. Cry out to God for forgiveness, and let the Holy Spirit fill you, and comfort you, that you are assured salvation and eternal life.

God bless you, Yaaqov ben Yisrael.

[Yaaqov ben Yisrael]

And, this is exactly what Jesus wanted us to do. Being the good Jew that he really was, he begged and pleaded with the "religious" Jews of his time, to turn them back towards God. And what happened to him for this? What was his punishment, for crimes he did not commit? Prophecy doesn't change the law, not one bit! But by the terms by which we agree that God is literally, the law. The Word of God is law, and the Word of God was made flesh. Is it not the most wonderful picture, ever?

The only thing that has changed, is that God Himself has come to us, and has boldly declared (First to the Jew, and then to the Gentile) "I forgive you." But we must reach out and accept that forgiveness. This is prophecy fulfilled, that the Jews have become a beacon of light to the Gentiles! Why do you think that animal sacrifices have ceased? That the temple was destroyed? But trust me, the fight isn't over yet. The battle wages on, throughout the world, in YOUR heart and in YOUR mind. We continue to reject God in place of our own explanation of events, and sciences that offer explanations without God in the picture, and firmly plant our banner in opposition to God.

I am a Jew, by heritage a Sephardic Jew. God has sent His people all over the world, and we've indeed become as numerous as the stars, the promise to Abraham fulfilled. I beg with you, and plead with you, see Jesus as a Jew, not what Christianity today has become. There are many things WRONG with Christianity today, and it is because we do have a real enemy: Satan.

Satan is real, because Jesus said that he's real. Jesus cast out demons, and through his defiance of evil, was made perfect by submitting to the laws that he himself wrote! AND He was put to death for it, on Passover of all times! Is this not prophecy? Is this not wonderful? Look into your heart, and see what is keeping you from accepting this truth. Ask God for guidance, and reach out to touch Him with your prayers. He will answer you, but I've heard he only responds if you get his name right: Jesus. Sincerely ask, and let the words flow from the heart. Cry out to God for forgiveness, and let the Holy Spirit fill you, and comfort you, that you are assured salvation and eternal life.

God bless you, Yaaqov ben Yisrael.

This thread is about the Hebrew Language, how it developed and works as opposed to the neo-Hebraic pseudo-science. I believe we are straying from the point of this thread.

I am not a Jew, I am Qaraim/Qaraylar. We descend from the Israelites, and were exiled to the Crimea at the time of Sennacherib. Contrary to the popular notion among Jews, I do not believe that the universe was created only for the sake of the Judeans, nor do I believe one need become Jewish to be in covenant with God; nor do I believe that one need be in the Sinaitic covenant to be in relationshipt with God. The Sinaitic covenant is only for Israel, and those who attach themselves to this covenant.

As for your ideas and opinions of Satan, I disagree. He is no enemy. I have answered this in another thread. Reply there if you wish:

http://bibleforums.org/showthread.ph...23#post2832423

Ya'aqov ben Yisrael

[Ceegen]

This thread is about the Hebrew Language, how it developed and works as opposed to the neo-Hebraic pseudo-science. I believe we are straying from the point of this thread.

I am not a Jew, I am Qaraim/Qaraylar. We descend from the Israelites, and were exiled to the Crimea at the time of Sennacherib. Contrary to the popular notion among Jews, I do not believe that the universe was created only for the sake of the Judeans, nor do I believe one need become Jewish to be in covenant with God; nor do I believe that one need be in the Sinaitic covenant to be in relationshipt with God. The Sinaitic covenant is only for Israel, and those who attach themselves to this covenant.

As for your ideas and opinions of Satan, I disagree. He is no enemy. I have answered this in another thread. Reply there if you wish:

http://bibleforums.org/showthread.ph...23#post2832423

Ya'aqov ben Yisrael

So what is the point of coming to a Christian forum, posting about Hebrew Pictographs? What is your intent with this information? What are you trying to convince us of? That prophecy doesn't mean anything? That Jesus isn't Messiah, because prophecies about him don't matter? You're welcome to try this, but it isn't going to get you anywhere, lol.

That's what I'm getting at, and you still have not provided a clear and definitive answer. Be plain, that we may know your intent.

[Yaaqov ben Yisrael]

So what is the point of coming to a Christian forum, posting about Hebrew Pictographs? What is your intent with this information? What are you trying to convince us of? That prophecy doesn't mean anything? That Jesus isn't Messiah, because propheci

es about him don't matter? You're welcome to try this, but it isn't going to get you anywhere, lol.



That's what I'm getting at, and you still have not provided a clear and definitive answer. Be plain, that we may know your intent.

My intentions were clearly stated in my introduction. I only joined to enter into discussion of Hebrew, Text, Grammar and Exegesis; not to debate about prophecy, or Jesus or any other matter. Many that have commented on this thread seem not to have had any training in Hebrew grammar; so now the thread is becoming stale and delving into areas not intended, at least not by my posts.


Yaaqov ben Yisrael

[Ceegen]

My intentions were clearly stated in my introduction. I only joined to enter into discussion of Hebrew, Text, Grammar and Exegesis; not to debate about prophecy, or Jesus or any other matter. Many that have commented on this thread seem not to have had any training in Hebrew grammar; so now the thread is becoming stale and delving into areas not intended, at least not by my posts.


Yaaqov ben Yisrael

No, no no no. What is the point of knowing this information? Where does it lead to? What is the end result of it? Does it affect the overall message of the bible? Does it affect prophecy?

By changing how the language is viewed, it essentially changes the message in some way. I am wondering/asking how it is important to the overall message of the bible, if any at all? That wasn't clear in your first post, sorry if I missed it, but I didn't catch it the first time. I will re-read it though, promise.

[Yaaqov ben Yisrael]

I apologize for posting without a direct quote, I am working amd posting via cell phone.

If one is not trained properly in Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek and Latin then one cannot know more than an interpretive understanding, one which is either supplied by a translator, or groups of translators. In light of the neo0Hebraic pictographic interpretive method being promoted by those such as Benner, the person is merely guessing at the so called "hidden" meaning. This is really a false interpretive method as Hebrew never worked in the manner being promoted. This means a person can supply whaterver interpretation best fits his ideology, or whatever the understanding he is trying to arrive at. This is contrary to the written Text and the Hebrew language. There are ideas and interpretation being promoted which go against even the context, literal, grammatical and thematic of the Bible itself. This is a dangerous method and is often very misleading.

This is the point. Even Paul admonished to study and rightly divide the word of truth. None of Jesus' apostles employed such a method as is being promoted lately.

Yaaqov ben Yisrael

[Yaaqov ben Yisrael]

The idea of the pictographic interpretive method, which insists the letters add to the meaning of the words in which they are employed, is similar to the idea of Bible codes. The codes are an inventions of the imagination, and there is really no set rule how the code is drawn. Out of the hundreds of thousands of letters in the Hebrew Text, a words may be formed forward, backwards, diagonally, vertically, and even violate proper grammar and spelling. This, mathematically, would make finding anything very possible, whatever the imagination can conjure.

According to the neo-Hebraists, the Hebrew alphabet was based upon picture writing, which is false and not evidenced in the historical record. They have made a claim of what the pictures were based upon the names of the Hebrew Alphabet, Aleph- Ox, and represents power, naturally; Beth- House, or something in a house, etc. etc. In this ways, anyone can use their imagination to provide an inner meaning to a word. However, this doesnt always work, not for every word, which shows this to not be a correct method, otherwise all words would work so.

This type of interpretation is coincidence, even if you dont believe in such. It has been shown the the phenomenon of ELS is found in any book given the same variables. Pictographic interpretation is likewise found in any alphabet based upon the Semitic stock, even English. English letters come from the Latin, which came from the Greek, which came ultimately from the Phoenician, a Semitic language. Take then the examples:

Milk= M= water, flow, source, etc. I= hand, ability, power to do; L= authority, guidance, direction; K= the palm of the hand, possession, etc. So then Milk really means= That which flows or has its source from the authority or guidance of the hand...

Man= M= water, flow, source, etc. A=Power, Strength, etc. N=seed, perpetuation, eternity, etc. So Man= Flow, source of eternal, perpetual power

How about something more modern, like Car? C=Comes from Gimel, and according to Benner means to "go", A= power, strength, and R=a man, or a chief, or even the beginning. Hence the word Car means the beginning of man's ability, power to go, move.

Let's try Devil, which is from the Greek Diabolos. D=Door, revolving (going back and forth); I=Hand, the ability to do, make, etc.; A= Power, Strength; B= House, Family, In; O= Eye, Watching, Knowledge; L= Authority, Direction toward; O= Watching, Knowledge; S= Thorn, a weapon or defense. So then Devil/Diabolos means= The revolving work of Strengthening the family, by watching the direction of the defensive authority.

I can do this all day with any language, and as long as I am allowed to use this method and my own imaginative interpretation, I can make words mean anything, or find "deeper" meanings in them; no matter the original root and etymological meanings. Diabolos comes from Dia=by means of, and Ballo= To cast, and hence means to by means of casting, which is to say, casting an accusation, or slander.

Ya'aqov ben Yisrael

[episkopos]

The idea of the pictographic interpretive method, which insists the letters add to the meaning of the words in which they are employed, is similar to the idea of Bible codes. The codes are an inventions of the imagination, and there is really no set rule how the code is drawn. Out of the hundreds of thousands of letters in the Hebrew Text, a words may be formed forward, backwards, diagonally, vertically, and even violate proper grammar and spelling. This, mathematically, would make finding anything very possible, whatever the imagination can conjure.

According to the neo-Hebraists, the Hebrew alphabet was based upon picture writing, which is false and not evidenced in the historical record. They have made a claim of what the pictures were based upon the names of the Hebrew Alphabet, Aleph- Ox, and represents power, naturally; Beth- House, or something in a house, etc. etc. In this ways, anyone can use their imagination to provide an inner meaning to a word. However, this doesnt always work, not for every word, which shows this to not be a correct method, otherwise all words would work so.

This type of interpretation is coincidence, even if you dont believe in such. It has been shown the the phenomenon of ELS is found in any book given the same variables. Pictographic interpretation is likewise found in any alphabet based upon the Semitic stock, even English. English letters come from the Latin, which came from the Greek, which came ultimately from the Phoenician, a Semitic language. Take then the examples:

Milk= M= water, flow, source, etc. I= hand, ability, power to do; L= authority, guidance, direction; K= the palm of the hand, possession, etc. So then Milk really means= That which flows or has its source from the authority or guidance of the hand...

Man= M= water, flow, source, etc. A=Power, Strength, etc. N=seed, perpetuation, eternity, etc. So Man= Flow, source of eternal, perpetual power

How about something more modern, like Car? C=Comes from Gimel, and according to Benner means to "go", A= power, strength, and R=a man, or a chief, or even the beginning. Hence the word Car means the beginning of man's ability, power to go, move.

I can do this all day with any language, and as long as I am allowed to use this method and my own imaginative interpretation, I can make words mean anything, or find "deeper" meanings in them; no matter the original root and etymological meanings.

Ya'aqov ben Yisrael

All this assumes, of course that man is in control of the language. Car is not a biblical word...it is a modern word chosen by man. If God can control micro-organisms and a day can be lived in for a year or more....time being inconsequential to God....then why not the hiding of meanings within words? Why not be more efficient in the use of the very element that frames the universe?

God does not use word plays ALL THE TIME..but they are there. God does not build up words from pictures ALL THE TIME...but there are many that are built this way. Only men in their futile ways are looking for a rigid formula. This may be coming from the idea that a cracker jacks box ALWAYS has a prize in it. But in nature, does every oyster have a pearl???

We have to stop judging God from a consumer perspective. Dr. Pepper may know something about soft drinks...but he is no surgeon. So it is with man's reasonings when it comes to the way God chooses to relay His message to men.