Determining timezones.

[divaD]

I have to wonder, how many take this into account when trying to determine the meaning of Scriptures? Speaking for myself, that's the first thing I try to do. I try to determine the timezone. And if the timezone doesn't seem to fit with the past nor present, then I'm left concluding it must mean future then. I'm wondering about folks who spitualize unclear passages, or that they simply conclude it has to already be fullfilled, since the language doesn't fit modern times. Ezekiel 38 and 39 is a good example of this.

Let's take a random passage, then see if the timezone can be established.

Isaiah 2:2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
5 O house of Jacob, come ye, and let us walk in the light of the LORD.


Verse 2 says...And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.

While verse 4 says...And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

So then, is verse 4 the same timezone as verse 2..in the last days? Verse 4 clearly says...nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Let's compare that to the following.

Matthew 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

So now we have to establish the timezone for this passage, in order to determine the correct timezone for Isaiah 2:4, which would have to logically follow after Matthew 24:7-9 has already been fulfilled I would think.

But anyway, this is what this thread will be about. As per the example I just provided, what is one's thoughts on the timezone in Isaiah 2:4, in relation to Isaiah 2:2, in relation to Matthew 24:7-9?

[John 8:32]

But anyway, this is what this thread will be about. As per the example I just provided, what is one's thoughts on the timezone in Isaiah 2:4, in relation to Isaiah 2:2, in relation to Matthew 24:7-9?

Isa 2 is speaking of Christ's Millenial reign on the earth. Mat 24 is speaking of the end time just prior to His return.

[divaD]

Isa 2 is speaking of Christ's Millenial reign on the earth. .

That seems to be the logical conclusion. So why then is not everyone coming to that same logical conclusion?

[John 8:32]

That seems to be the logical conclusion. So why then is not everyone coming to that same logical conclusion?

How about a slightly controversial reply?

Mat 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

That should light a fire.

[divaD]

How about a slightly controversial reply?

Mat 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

That should light a fire.

Personally I don't think I would have used that passage to make the point. That seems to be meaning the unbelieving Jews at the time. I'm not certain how you are linking that to someone who is not coming to the same conclusions about Isaiah 2. And besides, do we really need to light any fires like that? I'd rather try and understand why one comes to the conclusions they do. By dialogging with others, we can oftentimes determine why, even if we still disagree about it when it's over.

[John 8:32]

Personally I don't think I would have used that passage to make the point. That seems to be meaning the unbelieving Jews at the time. I'm not certain how you are linking that to someone who is not coming to the same conclusions about Isaiah 2. And besides, do we really need to light any fires like that? I'd rather try and understand why one comes to the conclusions they do. By dialogging with others, we can oftentimes determine why, even if we still disagree about it when it's over.

Do you think the scriptures are wide open for all to understand today? why did Jesus have to open the minds of His disciples after 3-1/2 years of learning at His feet?

Luk 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

Hmmm, this occurred after His resurrection. The scripture in Mat 13 was not written for all of His throughout time?

Luk 12:32 Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.

Fear not everyone in the world... Nope. He said He would have a little flock. I am speaking very plainly here, but it is what Christ said.

Joh 16:2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.

Spoken for just the twelve? Or just that limited time?

Joh 16:4 But these things have I told you, that when the time shall come, ye may remember that I told you of them. And these things I said not unto you at the beginning, because I was with you.

Joh 17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

Jesus made a great distinction here. There are those called at this time and those who will be called during the millenium and those called at the White Throne Judgment.

Oh and as far as lighting a fire, the thought there was to stir to action others to search the scriptures and prove or disprove. It has nothing to do with any personal attacks or vendettas. I wish all were like the Bereans instead of those who blithely accept what they are taught.

[billy-brown 2]

That seems to be the logical conclusion. So why then is not everyone coming to that same logical conclusion?

LOL

Well, perhaps it's because Matt. 24:7-9 has a caveat verse attached to it:

Matt. 24 (the words of Jesus Christ)
34“Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.

And also, Isaiah 2:4 has a caveat verse attached to it--in terms of the timezone element:

Isa. 2
1The word which Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem.

[divaD]

LOL

Well, perhaps it's because Matt. 24:7-9 has a caveat verse attached to it:


And also, Isaiah 2:4 has a caveat verse attached to it--in terms of the timezone element:

BB2, let me take a wild guess hee as to how you're thinking. Since you made a point to mention verse 1 of Isaiah 2, this tells me that perhaps you're concluding verse 4 is only in regards to Judah and Jerusalem. If so, let's see how that fits with the overall context.


Isaiah 2:2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.


Let's try and establish who all is within this context.

Isaiah 2:2...and all nations shall flow unto it. This verse says all nations. So then, are all nations Judah and Jerusalem?

Isaiah 2:2...And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD. Are these many people only people of Judah and Jerusalem?

Isaiah 2:4....And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people. Is this meaning that he shall judge among only Judah and Jerusalem, and shall rebuke many people among Judah and Jerusalem only?

Isaiah 2:4....and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks. Is this meaning that only Judah and Jerusalem shall beat their swords into plowshares?

Isaiah 2:4....nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. Is this meaning that only Judah shall not lift up sword against Jerusalem, neither will Judah and Jerusalem learn war any more?

One thing is for certain I would think, the fact that both Judah and Jerusalem are part of the overall context, plus speaking of trying to establish timezones, I would think Isaiah 2 should help us establish the timezones in Zech 14, since both Judah and Jerusalem are mentioned in that context as well.


Zechariah 14:14 And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance.

Logically I would think this happens before Isaiah 2:4 is fulfilled.


Zechariah 14:8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.
10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.
11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.


Verse 11 tho, seems to fit the context of nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. If so, we then have to determine when it is that Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem, and when it is that there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

[billy-brown 2]

BB2, let me take a wild guess hee as to how you're thinking. Since you made a point to mention verse 1 of Isaiah 2, this tells me that perhaps you're concluding verse 4 is only in regards to Judah and Jerusalem. If so, let's see how that fits with the overall context.


Isaiah 2:2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.


Let's try and establish who all is within this context.

Isaiah 2:2...and all nations shall flow unto it. This verse says all nations. So then, are all nations Judah and Jerusalem?

Isaiah 2:2...And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD. Are these many people only people of Judah and Jerusalem?

Isaiah 2:4....And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people. Is this meaning that he shall judge among only Judah and Jerusalem, and shall rebuke many people among Judah and Jerusalem only?

Isaiah 2:4....and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks. Is this meaning that only Judah and Jerusalem shall beat their swords into plowshares?

Isaiah 2:4....nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. Is this meaning that only Judah shall not lift up sword against Jerusalem, neither will Judah and Jerusalem learn war any more?

One thing is for certain I would think, the fact that both Judah and Jerusalem are part of the overall context, plus speaking of trying to establish timezones, I would think Isaiah 2 should help us establish the timezones in Zech 14, since both Judah and Jerusalem are mentioned in that context as well.


Zechariah 14:14 And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance.

Logically I would think this happens before Isaiah 2:4 is fulfilled.


Zechariah 14:8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.
10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.
11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.


Verse 11 tho, seems to fit the context of nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. If so, we then have to determine when it is that Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem, and when it is that there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

Let's see . . .

divaD,

Are you aware that this passage of yours below

Isaiah 2
2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

comes from the context of this one in Micah?

Micah 4
1And it will come about in the last days
That the mountain of the house of the LORD
Will be established as the chief of the mountains.
It will be raised above the hills,
And the peoples will stream to it.

2Many nations will come and say,
“Come and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD
And to the house of the God of Jacob,
That He may teach us about His ways
And that we may walk in His paths.”
For from Zion will go forth the law,
Even the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

3And He will judge between many peoples
And render decisions for mighty, distant nations.
Then they will hammer their swords into plowshares
And their spears into pruning hooks;
Nation will not lift up sword against nation,
And never again will they train for war.

4Each of them will sit under his vine
And under his fig tree,
With no one to make them afraid,
For the mouth of the LORD of hosts has spoken.

5Though all the peoples walk
Each in the name of his god,
As for us, we will walk
In the name of the LORD our God forever and ever.

6“In that day,” declares the LORD,
“I will assemble the lame
And gather the outcasts,
Even those whom I have afflicted.

7“I will make the lame a remnant
And the outcasts a strong nation,
And the LORD will reign over them in Mount Zion
From now on and forever.

8“As for you, tower of the flock,
Hill of the daughter of Zion,
To you it will come—
Even the former dominion will come,
The kingdom of the daughter of Jerusalem.

9“Now, why do you cry out loudly?
Is there no king among you,
Or has your counselor perished,
That agony has gripped you like a woman in childbirth?

10“Writhe and labor to give birth,
Daughter of Zion,
Like a woman in childbirth;
For now you will go out of the city,
Dwell in the field,
And go to Babylon.
There you will be rescued;
There the LORD will redeem you
From the hand of your enemies.

11“And now many nations have been assembled against you
Who say, ‘Let her be polluted,
And let our eyes gloat over Zion.’

12“But they do not know the thoughts of the LORD,
And they do not understand His purpose;
For He has gathered them like sheaves to the threshing floor.

13“Arise and thresh, daughter of Zion,
For your horn I will make iron
And your hoofs I will make bronze,
That you may pulverize many peoples,
That you may devote to the LORD their unjust gain
And their wealth to the Lord of all the earth.

Now, this chapter is quite interesting. Just look at the scriptures in bold above . . .

Indeed, Micah gives a prophecy which includes a determination that Judah would go into Babylonian captivity and come out of Babylonian captivity--this is what is contained in Micah 4:10, yes? Now, has this happened?

The answer must be yes. And the OP concerns timezones, yes? After all, Judea goes into Babylonian captivity after Jerusalem and Solomon's Temple is destroyed, yes?

And what about the underlined text above from Micah 4? Does it not refer to the times of the giving out of the good news of the gospel of Christ and so on? After all, Micah 4:7-8 speak of the Lord and His reign; is not our Jesus reigning as our KING already?

[John 8:32]

And what about the underlined text above from Micah 4? Does it not refer to the times of the giving out of the good news of the gospel of Christ and so on? After all, Micah 4:7-8 speak of the Lord and His reign; is not our Jesus reigning as our KING already?

Is Christ reigning in the fashion He prophesied He would? How's He doing right now with Ahmadinajad? How about Kim Jong Un? What about the Taliban and Alqaeda? Or Kony? Is this the explanation you have for the fulfillment of Dan 2:44?

Dan 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

Show me where this one has been fulfilled...

Isa 45:23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

Or is it just a mystical allegory that we cannot really see?

[billy-brown 2]

Is Christ reigning in the fashion He prophesied He would? How's He doing right now with Ahmadinajad? How about Kim Jong Un? What about the Taliban and Alqaeda? Or Kony? Is this the explanation you have for the fulfillment of Dan 2:44?

Dan 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

Show me where this one has been fulfilled...

Isa 45:23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

Or is it just a mystical allegory that we cannot really see?

John,

Christ is ruling in the midst of enemies right NOW:

Col. 1
1Therefore if you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.

Hebrews 8
1 The point of what we are saying is this: We do have such a high priest, who sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, . . .

I Cor. 15
22For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
23But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming,
24then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.
25For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.
26The last enemy that will be abolished is death.

And the Kingdom rule of Christ is not allegory and so on . . . it is active and powerful. And one of the many examples of the active rule of Christ Jesus today is the preaching of the Gospel itself:

Mark 16
15And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.
16“He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.
17“These signs will accompany those who have believed: in My name they will cast out demons, they will speak with new tongues;
18they will pick up serpents, and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”
19So then, when the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven and sat down at the right hand of God.

[DurbanDude]

I have to wonder, how many take this into account when trying to determine the meaning of Scriptures? Speaking for myself, that's the first thing I try to do. I try to determine the timezone. And if the timezone doesn't seem to fit with the past nor present, then I'm left concluding it must mean future then. I'm wondering about folks who spitualize unclear passages, or that they simply conclude it has to already be fullfilled, since the language doesn't fit modern times. Ezekiel 38 and 39 is a good example of this.

Let's take a random passage, then see if the timezone can be established.

Isaiah 2:2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
5 O house of Jacob, come ye, and let us walk in the light of the LORD.

I believe many prophecies about the second coming were fulfilled in a spiritual manner at the first coming.

ie the spiritual kingdom was established, yet a future physical kingdom will be established.
The spiritual Mount Zion (the church) overcomes, yet physically Mount Zion will be raised higher at the second coming.
Through accepting christ, we accept a lifestyle of peace, yet at the second coming there will be international peace.
True Israel (saved believers) were established, yet physical Israel will be established.
The spiritual captives were set free, but the physical captives shall be set free.
The enemy (Satan) of the church (true Israel) has been overcome, but military enemies of literal Israel will be literally destroyed at the second coming.

I believe many second coming verses were partially fulfilled in a spiritual manner at the first coming, and yet will be literally fulfilled in a complete manner at the second coming. I believe Isaiah 2 is like this, it can be seen as fulfilled in the first coming, but the match is not close enough to be satisfying, it will be properly fulfilled at the second coming.

[divaD]

I believe many prophecies about the second coming were fulfilled in a spiritual manner at the first coming.

ie the spiritual kingdom was established, yet a future physical kingdom will be established.
The spiritual Mount Zion (the church) overcomes, yet physically Mount Zion will be raised higher at the second coming.
Through accepting christ, we accept a lifestyle of peace, yet at the second coming there will be international peace.
True Israel (saved believers) were established, yet physical Israel will be established.
The spiritual captives were set free, but the physical captives shall be set free.
The enemy (Satan) of the church (true Israel) has been overcome, but military enemies of literal Israel will be literally destroyed at the second coming.

I believe many second coming verses were partially fulfilled in a spiritual manner at the first coming, and yet will be literally fulfilled in a complete manner at the second coming. I believe Isaiah 2 is like this, it can be seen as fulfilled in the first coming, but the match is not close enough to be satisfying, it will be properly fulfilled at the second coming.

You make some excellent points here, DurbanDude. Is there a label for what you are describing?

[DurbanDude]

You make some excellent points here, DurbanDude. Is there a label for what you are describing?

Not that I know of, there are very similar concepts though expressed in these threads, for example Matthehitmanhart regularly expresses his "already but not yet" view that has some similarities. Also the concept of Midrash is similar, because the NT authors often allude to OT scriptures that do not seem to be related to the first coming and yet apply the verses to the first coming. Additionally the concept of "dual fulfilment" is also similar, a prophecy having two fulfilments.

[ross3421]

We need to remember ALL prophets were given understanding of ALL mystreries. So most old testament prophets not only wrote on the first but also the second coming. Usually chapters of their books run from current to future events. In addition, even within chapters themselves you can this progression culminating most times in the second coming. So when interpetating the prophets they are not all past events nor are the all future, the challenge is to understand which is which. Word searches are key in making this easier to understand hence the reason the KJV is the option to use as with newer versions you loose the ability to pull scriptures together.