Absolutely.........Originally Posted by RevLogos
Posting Freak
Absolutely.........
Posting Freak
Satan would have been wrong because God said so, not because it was proven he was wrong through the choice of created beings.
Senior Member
That's why I told him to do his own research. I've been through this several times.
Captain Obvious
How did this turn into a quasi-annihilation thread? Did I miss something from the OP?
The Rookie
Twelve is the number of government. Thus, it is quite apropos that I am on my way towards wielding the power of twelve bars - each bar like, say, a tribe.....or a star.....or, maybe an apostle. A blue apostle. Like apostle smurfs. Does anyone remember smurfs? And all the controversy about them being from the devil? It's probably bad that I juxtaposed "apostle" and "smurf" in the same sentence. But then, I probably lost you at "blue apostle". Yes, my friends, this is what "rare jewel of a person" is actually implying. "Rare Jewel of a Person" really means, "Potentially Insane".
Senior Member
I've seen several verses that say "the worm, the fire, their suffering" is eternal etc. I've seen scripture that says that satan and his minions will suffer eternally...I've never read anything that states that men or their souls will suffer eternally. Again, do your own research...make your own opinions...I'm not here to debate. I've studied the subject and made up my mind. If you don't agree that's fine but I'm not here to answer your questions or debate the issue. Please study it yourselves and leave me out of the debate. Thanks.
Senior Member
I stated clearly that I didn't want to debate the issue and that my message was directed toward the person that posted the op...but some people can't respect that and here we are. Again, I am trying to give the person that posted the OP something to think about to help him/her answer their question. Not here trying to bring up a discussion on annihilation. My statements aren't addressed to anyone but the op.
Captain Obvious
That seems like an unfair statement. It's a naturally inflammatory topic and to throw up your hands and say, "Hey, don't look at me!" is to open up a can of worms and point at the other guy when he pounces on them.
The Rookie
Twelve is the number of government. Thus, it is quite apropos that I am on my way towards wielding the power of twelve bars - each bar like, say, a tribe.....or a star.....or, maybe an apostle. A blue apostle. Like apostle smurfs. Does anyone remember smurfs? And all the controversy about them being from the devil? It's probably bad that I juxtaposed "apostle" and "smurf" in the same sentence. But then, I probably lost you at "blue apostle". Yes, my friends, this is what "rare jewel of a person" is actually implying. "Rare Jewel of a Person" really means, "Potentially Insane".
Senior Member
Apologies. I didn't make it clear enough in my first post. Let me explain. I've had this debate so many times that I do not want to have it again any time soon. If a person doesn't agree with me, that is fine but I don't want to debate the issue. I am firm in my belief because I have studied it extensively. I was trying to give some perspective as to one aspect of the question that he asked. Not trying to be rude, I just don't want to discuss it as I've found that the vast majority of Christians were raised to believe one thing and they don't deviate from it regardless of scripture...that and the fact that I've been over this several times.
Posting Freak
Yes, so suppose God wanted to a) repopulate heaven with a new generation of angels who could always be trusted to do the right thing, and b) prove to the fallen angels that good will triumph over evil.
Love requires free will. Therefore, if there is love in heaven, there is also free will in heaven. Where there is free will there is sin. Unless, those in heaven have moved beyond sin, enabled to do so in a glorified world and with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Able to do wrong but unwilling. So a) is just imaginative speculation; possible I suppose or just a small part of a larger picture.
But as for b), does good triumph over evil? Not if we believe our eschatology (most versions anyway). Things get bad on earth, really bad, as in the days of Noah. Evil reigns, persecution and tribulation rules. It gets so bad God has to come down and destroy it all a second time. Only a small camp of saints is left, huddled in camp in fear for their lives. This has always bothered me. Good does not triumph over evil as long as free will exists. Its as if God gives up on humans, takes those saints who love Him, and destroys the rest. The only thing evil cannot triumph over is the brute force of God.
In Christ,
-- Rev
“To preserve the government we must also preserve morals. Morality rests on religion; if you destroy the foundation, the superstructure must fall. When the public mind becomes vitiated and corrupt, laws are a nullity and constitutions are waste paper.” – Daniel Webster, 4th of July, 1800, Oration at Hanover, N.H.
Captain Obvious
Fair enough - my sole point was that this seemed like a fine topic apart from that "accelerant" added to the fire
The Rookie
Twelve is the number of government. Thus, it is quite apropos that I am on my way towards wielding the power of twelve bars - each bar like, say, a tribe.....or a star.....or, maybe an apostle. A blue apostle. Like apostle smurfs. Does anyone remember smurfs? And all the controversy about them being from the devil? It's probably bad that I juxtaposed "apostle" and "smurf" in the same sentence. But then, I probably lost you at "blue apostle". Yes, my friends, this is what "rare jewel of a person" is actually implying. "Rare Jewel of a Person" really means, "Potentially Insane".
Senior Member
My reply was directly related to the questions asked in the op.Fair enough - my sole point was that this seemed like a fine topic apart from that "accelerant" added to the fire
Last edited by DDGresham1; Apr 11th 2012 at 12:03 AM.
Regular Contributor
***
Simply put, if God allowed the threat of evil to keep Him from doing the good that He wanted, then (the potential for) evil has manipulated and controlled what He does or doesn’t do.
If all those who might have spent eternity in God’s love were never allowed to be brought into existence because of the potential for evil and suffering, did God and His goodness prevail or did evil prevail before God ever spoke a word?
Lets bring it down to a human level. I could go into work tomorrow and be kind to a certain co-worker and hope for friendliness and fellowship in the workplace. Or I could avoid her altogether because I know of the potential of hers to be spiteful and ugly. If I avoid her, evil has prevailed in my mind already, has it not? Instead of doing good, I do nothing. The potential for evil has manipulated and determined my actions, and nothing good happens.
Again, the night out with the kids analogy - if you decided not to treat all of your children to a night out because of the one child who didn’t want to go, who had control, who manipulated the situation - You and the good you wanted to do, or the one who didn’t want to go? The one who didn’t want to go. And the evening is spoiled for you and those who wanted to go before it ever began. Or you could go anyway, and if he throws a fit about being there, you put him in a corner seat while the others play in the play area, and you talk to him and encourage him to go have fun with the others, and if he continues to get angry with you, you ground him when you get home. But you don’t give in to him before you ever even go or you’ve let him and his potentially bad behavior manipulate you and decide the course, and not you and your good intentions.
Regular Contributor
***
Somebody put it to me that way about 10-15 years ago and it rang true with me as well. I've never since questioned why God created, given that He knew the suffering that would follow. He could not allow even the potential for evil to manipulate and determine what He would do.
Posting Freak
We do not agree on some points, but on this one we seem to be in lock-step.
One must consider the purpose of parables, they were not to instruct the "simple farm folk of the day", parables were used to hide the meaning...
Mat 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
Mat 13:14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
Mat 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
Doctrine should never be established by parable. Straightforward teaching, such as Jesus gave to his disciples, but not parables. They were not given to the disciples to clarify, they were given to hide the meaning from the masses...
Mat 13:34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:
He had to explain the meaning to the disciples privately for they did not understand...
Mat 13:36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
Grand Master
Matthew 25:46 - "Then they [the unrighteous] will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” In this verse, the same Greek word is used to refer to the destiny of the unrighteous and the righteous. If the righteous will receive eternal life, why won't the unrighteous receive eternal punishment?
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