Question I've Never Really Seen Answered

[awestruckchild]

How would evil have prevailed?

Did you read Lily's entire post?
Read the whole post, not just the part I quoted. The example she gives of the parent and the children explains it if the sentence does not.
If the threat of evil had kept God from creating things that were good, then God would be in subjection to evil. Evil would rule and have it's wish that all be dark and without Light.

[John 8:32]

Matthew 25:46 - "Then they [the unrighteous] will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” In this verse, the same Greek word is used to refer to the destiny of the unrighteous and the righteous. If the righteous will receive eternal life, why won't the unrighteous receive eternal punishment?

Because God says in many other scriptures that the reward of the wicked is extinction. The opposite of life is what? Life in another place? The opposite of life is death. Death for eternity vs. life for eternity.

[John 8:32]

Let me give a couple of scriptures to corroborate my previous post...

I would expect that this is the most well known scripture in the Bible...

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Notice the word perish, it comes from...

G622
ἀπόλλυμι
apollumi
ap-ol'-loo-mee
From G575 and the base of G3639; to destroy fully (reflexively to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively: - destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.

And as you can see, it does not mean eternal life in another place.

Also...

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

G2288
θάνατος
thanatos
than'-at-os
From G2348; (properly an adjective used as a noun) death (literally or figuratively): - X deadly, (be . . .) death.

Death is death.

What is the ultimate end of the wicked?

Mal 4:2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
Mal 4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

Burned to ashes. They will not even be remembered...

Isa 26:11 LORD, when thy hand is lifted up, they will not see: but they shall see, and be ashamed for their envy at the people; yea, the fire of thine enemies shall devour them.
Isa 26:14 They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased, they shall not rise: therefore hast thou visited and destroyed them, and made all their memory to perish.

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

G2288
θάνατος
thanatos
than'-at-os
From G2348; (properly an adjective used as a noun) death (literally or figuratively): - X deadly, (be . . .) death.

Done and done.

[Quickened]

One must consider the purpose of parables, they were not to instruct the "simple farm folk of the day", parables were used to hide the meaning...

Mat 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
Mat 13:14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
Mat 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Doctrine should never be established by parable. Straightforward teaching, such as Jesus gave to his disciples, but not parables. They were not given to the disciples to clarify, they were given to hide the meaning from the masses...

Mat 13:34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:

He had to explain the meaning to the disciples privately for they did not understand...

Mat 13:36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.

I'm aware of Parables and their purpose. I was addressing the part of the post I found flippant.

[Jemand]

Question: God in his foreknowledge knew that Adam and Eve would fall. He knew of the sin and all the horrible things that we humans would have to endure over the thousands of years afterward. He knew we would become so depraved that only the death of his own Son could save us. He knew that even afterward some would still continue to reject him. And he knew that at the end of it all, there will be people who spend eternity in the lake of fire along with Satan and his minions. So why, despite knowing all of this, would he create us in the first place? Does the good that comes out of all this outweigh the bad? Can one really say, "Yes there are millions who are in the lake of fire; but look at the millions more who are not!"

These questions assume to be true that which is not true. The Bible does NOT teach that God has ever had foreknowledge of all things—indeed, the Bible explicitly teaches that God has NOT had foreknowledge of all things, including the fall of man.

Genesis 6:5. Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
6. The LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. (NASB, 1995)

When God saw what men chose to do with the free will that He gave to them, He was horrified! Is it not obvious from this verse that God had no knowledge beforehand that men would use their free will to sin against Him? There are many other passages in the Bible that explicitly teach that God did NOT have foreknowledge regarding the behavior of individuals and even nations of people. Sometimes God knows beforehand what men will do; other times, He does not know.

I once saw this question answered as such: A married couple may choose to have a child. They know that the child, in its lifetime, will experience injury, doubt, pain, loss, watch as others die, and eventually die itself. Yet they still choose to bear that child. Why? Because their love compels them to do so. To have that child and raise it as best they can. Does this explanation hold water? Did God choose to have us out of intense love? I would almost daresay that a couple's desire to have children despite knowing the kid would eventually endure suffering is selfishness (I don't believe that, but let's roll with it for the sake of argument), fulfilling selfish desires to procreate. Is God, thus, being selfish?

This is a poor analogy because prospective parents know from their personal observations that when they conceive a child, they are condemning a human being to death, and that the odds are very great that the death will be very slow and agonizing—and yet, due to their desire to have children, they conceive them. Furthermore, Christians play Russian roulette when they conceive a child because they not only know that the child may be born with horrible defects that will cause a lifetime of suffering, but they also know, in their own minds, that their child may not accept Christ as their savior and may, therefore, spend eternity in the fires of hell. God, on the other hand, did not have these facts before Him when He created man in His own image, and He had every reason to believe that man would be perfect just as He is perfect.

[LookingUp]

Jemand,

Even if God didn't know with certainty who would who would would not sin and even if God didn't know with certainty how bad man's sin would get, God was smart enough to know that given the freedom to love and with it the freedom to hate, man would eventually sin on some level. That's why the Lamb is said to have been slain before the foundation of the world.

[Jemand]

Jemand,

Even if God didn't know with certainty who would who would would not sin and even if God didn't know with certainty how bad man's sin would get, God was smart enough to know that given the freedom to love and with it the freedom to hate, man would eventually sin on some level. That's why the Lamb is said to have been slain before the foundation of the world.

Is God smart enough to know that with His free will, He will eventually sin on some level? As for Rev. 13:8,

Revelation 13:8. And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. (KJV)

Revelation 13:8. And all that dwell on the earth shall worship him, every one whose name hath not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that hath been slain. (ASV)

Revelation 13:8. and all who dwell on earth will worship it, every one whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that was slain. (RSV)

Revelation 13:8. All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain. (NASB, 1995)

Revelation 13:8. and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that was slain. (ESV)

Revelation 13:8. and all people of the world will worship it, that is, everybody whose name has not been written down since the foundation of the world in the sacrificial Lamb's book of life. (NJB)

Revelation 13:8. All the inhabitants of the earth will worship it, all whose names were not written from the foundation of the world in the book of life, which belongs to the Lamb who was slain. (NAB)

Revelation 13:8. and all the inhabitants of the earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that was slaughtered. (NRSV)

[LookingUp]

Is God smart enough to know that with His free will, He will eventually sin on some level? As for Rev. 13:8,

I don't understand your question or the point of writing Rev. 13:8. God knows what He Himself will do and not do.

[CaptGus]

I agree also that 1/3 of God's creation fell with Lucifer before this earth age. God could have destroyed all of His creation then, but instead He placed us here to decide who we will follow. It is appointed to each one to be born of the flesh. When we reach the end of this earth age, God indeed will destroy all that put their trust in the evil one. Fear not who can destroy the flesh but fear the One that can destroy your soul,,second death.

[DDGresham1]

Matthew 25:46 - "Then they [the unrighteous] will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” In this verse, the same Greek word is used to refer to the destiny of the unrighteous and the righteous. If the righteous will receive eternal life, why won't the unrighteous receive eternal punishment?

I highly recommend you do a study on all verses associated with soul, spirit, hell, second death and all words closely associated with it. To answer your question, I'll ask you a question: How long will a persons soul be destroyed once it's destroyed? I can already guess what your response will be: Yes but it says "eternal punishment." Destroy my soul and I am going to be pretty upset when it happens...because it is an eternal punishment...there ain't no coming back from that. Again, you need more than one or two verses to develop a solid opinion on this. So, to answer your question: The wicked will be punished eternally. There is no coming back from the second death...it is eternal...you are done.

[the rookie]

Why are we debating annihilationism in here again?

Are we able to engage with the OP or should I just let you crazy kids keep derailing this thread...?

[nzyr]

Were the angels created before Man,

Yes.

...and if so, did the 1/3 of angels fall before Man was created?

The bible isn't clear as to when they fell. But they sinned before man did because Satan tempted Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden.

[Noeb]

Yes, so suppose God wanted to a) repopulate heaven with a new generation of angels who could always be trusted to do the right thing, and b) prove to the fallen angels that good will triumph over evil.

Love requires free will. Therefore, if there is love in heaven, there is also free will in heaven. Where there is free will there is sin. Unless, those in heaven have moved beyond sin, enabled to do so in a glorified world and with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Able to do wrong but unwilling. So a) is just imaginative speculation; possible I suppose or just a small part of a larger picture.

But as for b), does good triumph over evil? Not if we believe our eschatology (most versions anyway). Things get bad on earth, really bad, as in the days of Noah. Evil reigns, persecution and tribulation rules. It gets so bad God has to come down and destroy it all a second time. Only a small camp of saints is left, huddled in camp in fear for their lives. This has always bothered me. Good does not triumph over evil as long as free will exists. Its as if God gives up on humans, takes those saints who love Him, and destroys the rest. The only thing evil cannot triumph over is the brute force of God.

That's backwards IMO. Every time a saint is martyred, good triumphs over evil. Every time Christians are persecuted for Christ, good triumphs over evil. Just because you don't see it doesn't means it's not so. The wicked are storing up wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God. Triumph is the end victory. What you describe here is not triumph.

[Old man]

Question: ... So why, despite knowing all of this, would he create us in the first place?

Why He created us I think may be hinted at in the fact that He created us specifically in His image. I have yet to find any scripture that says that He does anything concerning us for His good. Yet I know that He causes all things to work together for the good of those that love Him. It is for our benefit that we learn who He is. When we learn who He is we become like Him just as He created us to be. It is His purpose that we be conformed to the image of Christ. I think there is far more to being created in His image than we generally think.

I think the real question is why did He give man the opportunity to rebel? The angels were created by God to worship and serve Him. They were dwelling in the very presence of the Almighty God knowing full well who and what He is. Yet even in this situation free will was given and some did choose to rebel (i.e. Satan, a third of the angels and possibly others not directly associated with Satan). Any time free will is given the possibility of rebellion exists. (It is interesting that when we mention free will it seems that it is most often used in the context of our rebelling against the Lord. Our exercising our free will almost seems to be synonymous with us rebelling. At least it seems so to me. ) So knowing that rebellion was probable why did He give man the opportunity to rebel by forbidding them to eat from the tree of Knowledge of good and evil yet leaving the tree in an accessible location? I don’t know the answer to this yet I’m not so sure it’s all about free will. If it is inevitable that we rebel when given free will (the angels did, man did) did God knowing that we would rebel also provide an avenue through which we after rebelling could get get back on track to being created in His image? After the angels exercised their free will they were not given a chance at redemption but then were they created in God's image? We are given a chance at redemption and we were created in His image. Just wondering

[divaD]

Why He created us I think may be hinted at in the fact that He created us specifically in His image. I have yet to find any scripture that says that He does anything concerning us for His good. Yet I know that He causes all things to work together for the good of those that love Him. It is for our benefit that we learn who He is. When we learn who He is we become like Him just as He created us to be. It is His purpose that we be conformed to the image of Christ. I think there is far more to being created in His image than we generally think.

I think the real question is why did He give man the opportunity to rebel? The angels were created by God to worship and serve Him. They were dwelling in the very presence of the Almighty God knowing full well who and what He is. Yet even in this situation free will was given and some did choose to rebel (i.e. Satan, a third of the angels and possibly others not directly associated with Satan). Any time free will is given the possibility of rebellion exists. (It is interesting that when we mention free will it seems that it is most often used in the context of our rebelling against the Lord. Our exercising our free will almost seems to be synonymous with us rebelling. At least it seems so to me. ) So knowing that rebellion was probable why did He give man the opportunity to rebel by forbidding them to eat from the tree of Knowledge of good and evil yet leaving the tree in an accessible location? I don’t know the answer to this yet I’m not so sure it’s all about free will. If it is inevitable that we rebel when given free will (the angels did, man did) did God knowing that we would rebel also provide an avenue through which we after rebelling could get get back on track to being created in His image? After the angels exercised their free will they were not given a chance at redemption but then were they created in God's image? We are given a chance at redemption and we were created in His image. Just wondering

To add to the question you were addressing, we see this in Revelation.

Revelation 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

Does that then mean, since the Lord in His foreknowledge would know that many would have to be punished in the end, that He still created man anyway, so as to have pleasure in punishing the wicked ones forever? I'm not saying that's what this verse means, but it could certainly mean that, depending on how you might look at it, the fact some would have to suffer, and for forever according to many. From what I can tell, all things wouldn't be leaving anything out. This would include satan, man that would become wicked eventually, etc. This verse says, in relation to all created things...and for thy pleasure they are and were created.