Question I've Never Really Seen Answered

[Jemand]

I don't understand your question or the point of writing Rev. 13:8. God knows what He Himself will do and not do.

You wrote, “God was smart enough to know that given the freedom to love and with it the freedom to hate, man would eventually sin on some level.” I replied with this question, “Is God smart enough to know that with His free will, He will eventually sin on some level?” My point: God created man with the same free will that He has. God does not sin and, therefore, He had no reason whatsoever to suppose that man, whom he created in His own image, would sin.

As for my quoting several translations of Rev. 13:8, I quoted them to show you that the best translations of that verse read VERY differently than does the King James Version upon which your faulty theology is based. The two questions in the opening post of this thread are based upon the same, faulty theology.

[Noeb]

Jemand, God does not have mortal flesh to be tempted with.

[awestruckchild]

I beg you guys to walk gently with each other.
Rookie is gonna' send you to your rooms!

[LookingUp]

You wrote, “God was smart enough to know that given the freedom to love and with it the freedom to hate, man would eventually sin on some level.” I replied with this question, “Is God smart enough to know that with His free will, He will eventually sin on some level?” My point: God created man with the same free will that He has. God does not sin and, therefore, He had no reason whatsoever to suppose that man, whom he created in His own image, would sin.

Not true. The Creator knows His creatures intimately. He knows that given opportunity and time, His creatures will sin. He also knows that He will not sin, since He knows for certain what He will and what He will not do.

As for my quoting several translations of Rev. 13:8, I quoted them to show you that the best translations of that verse read VERY differently than does the King James Version upon which your faulty theology is based. The two questions in the opening post of this thread are based upon the same, faulty theology.

I doubt you know my theology. Can you tell me what my theology is?

[Jemand]

Jemand, God does not have mortal flesh to be tempted with.

Do you believe in Jesus? Do you believe that Jesus, during His earthly ministry, was God in the flesh? Do you believe that Jesus was tempted to sin because He shared the same vulnerable flesh that we have? Do you believe that Jesus sinned, or that he was faithful to His Father in all things? Did God, in the beginning, have any reason to believe that we would sin rather than be faithful to Him who created us?

[Old man]

Revelation 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

Does that then mean, since the Lord in His foreknowledge would know that many would have to be punished in the end, that He still created man anyway, so as to have pleasure in punishing the wicked ones forever? I'm not saying that's what this verse means, but it could certainly mean that, depending on how you might look at it, the fact some would have to suffer, and for forever according to many.

No it could not mean that. It could only mean that if someone doesn’t balance the scripture with the context and the character of God and also does not do a little research. It is very easy to pick a scripture apart to contest a single word or small phrase and then blow it out of proportion and context because one is offended by what that small part taken by itself could, maybe, possibly mean if taken a certain way.

Eze 18:23 "Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked," declares the Lord GOD, "rather than that he should turn from his ways and live?

Eze 18:32 "For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies," declares the Lord GOD. "Therefore, repent and live."

Eze 33:11 "Say to them, 'As I live!' declares the Lord GOD,' I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil ways ! Why then will you die, O house of Israel?'”

From what I can tell, all things wouldn't be leaving anything out. This would include satan, man that would become wicked eventually, etc. This verse says, in relation to all created things...and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

The key to this is “created.” Everything was created for His pleasure even Lucifer before he fell but the fact is he rejected God’s ways by his own choice (free will) and man does the same. Everything is created for His pleasure it is not destroyed for His please.

[divaD]

No it could not mean that. It could only mean that if someone doesn’t balance the scripture with the context and the character of God and also does not do a little research. It is very easy to pick a scripture apart to contest a single word or small phrase and then blow it out of proportion and context because one is offended by what that small part taken by itself could, maybe, possibly mean if taken a certain way.

Eze 18:23 "Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked," declares the Lord GOD, "rather than that he should turn from his ways and live?

Eze 18:32 "For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies," declares the Lord GOD. "Therefore, repent and live."

Eze 33:11 "Say to them, 'As I live!' declares the Lord GOD,' I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil ways ! Why then will you die, O house of Israel?'”

The key to this is “created.” Everything was created for His pleasure even Lucifer before he fell but the fact is he rejected God’s ways by his own choice (free will) and man does the same. Everything is created for His pleasure it is not destroyed for His please.

I don't disagree with you. Yet at the same time, when God created all things for His pleasure, everything would have been good until evil enters the picture. Then we have to keep God's foreknowledge in mind. Here's an interesting question. Which came first? The creation of angels and men? Or the creation of hell for all the ones that would be bad? What I'm getting at, was punishment an afterthought in God's mind, meaning angels, men, etc, going bad, so now there needs to be a way to punish these? Or was there already a place of punishment in God's mind, even before He created anything? If there was, then how was everything created for God's pleasure, with Him knowing many would have to suffer for all eternity, this assuming eternal suffering is true?

[Hawkins]

Question: God in his foreknowledge knew that Adam and Eve would fall. He knew of the sin and all the horrible things that we humans would have to endure over the thousands of years afterward. He knew we would become so depraved that only the death of his own Son could save us. He knew that even afterward some would still continue to reject him. And he knew that at the end of it all, there will be people who spend eternity in the lake of fire along with Satan and his minions. So why, despite knowing all of this, would he create us in the first place? Does the good that comes out of all this outweigh the bad? Can one really say, "Yes there are millions who are in the lake of fire; but look at the millions more who are not!"

I know that God made humanity so that we would choose to love and worship him, and that we by our own free will rejected him. But it the physical and eternal suffering of so many worth God being loved and worshiped by a lesser amount of people than those who don't?

I once saw this question answered as such: A married couple may choose to have a child. They know that the child, in its lifetime, will experience injury, doubt, pain, loss, watch as others die, and eventually die itself. Yet they still choose to bear that child. Why? Because their love compels them to do so. To have that child and raise it as best they can. Does this explanation hold water? Did God choose to have us out of intense love? I would almost daresay that a couple's desire to have children despite knowing the kid would eventually endure suffering is selfishness (I don't believe that, but let's roll with it for the sake of argument), fulfilling selfish desires to procreate. Is God, thus, being selfish?

This isn't as much a faith-threatening issue to me as much a curiosity. I know God exists, even if his actions make no logical sense to me. There's order in the chaos. Still, it is something a skeptic or otherwise inquisitive person might ask, and I'd like to see what the answer would be.

This is about how an eternity called heaven is to be built. All we know of is this cosmos, this universe and this creation only. Even when there are multiple universe, they may all follow the same law of freewill. And for this eternity to be built, maybe among the same proportion of freewill will be qualified as by the law of freewill only this portion can survive the eternity. Only the sheep will survive the eternity but not the goats nor the wolves.

Everyone is invited but not everyone is selected. Everyone (at least those ever heard the gospel) is given a chance to choose to enter this eternity. If he gives up that chance then none can help, God will separate Himself from sin once this world ends. So except His sheep everyone else will be left alone.

Those being left alone will have to continue to sin, they did even when God's standard and influence exist. Then in an isolation without God's influence and with God's standard removed, they shall turn themselves into the satans and will be burnt. Leaves leaving the tree will have to decay to the point of being burnt.

On the other hand, His sheep and angels and (we don't know if there are other creations)... everyone will be happy together eternally in a heaven of love. Perhaps that's why the worth.

[Noeb]

Do you believe in Jesus? Do you believe that Jesus, during His earthly ministry, was God in the flesh? Do you believe that Jesus was tempted to sin because He shared the same vulnerable flesh that we have?

You didn't say that. You said

My point: God created man with the same free will that He has. God does not sin and, therefore, He had no reason whatsoever to suppose that man, whom he created in His own image, would sin.

That's not talking about thousands of years later when God became flesh. That's when God created man and did not have mortal flesh to be tempted with.

Did God, in the beginning, have any reason to believe that we would sin rather than be faithful to Him who created us?

Angels sinned. He created man with mortal flesh to be tempted with and then gave him the opportunity and choice to sin knowing the law was weak through the flesh. Did God, in the beginning, have any reason to believe that we would NOT sin and be faithful to Him who created us? Your question isn't logical. If God didn't think we would sin why was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world before man was created, and why does scripture say the law is weak through flesh?

[percho]

You didn't say that. You said

That's not talking about thousands of years later when God became flesh. That's when God created man and did not have mortal flesh to be tempted with.

Angels sinned. He created man with mortal flesh to be tempted with and then gave him the opportunity and choice to sin knowing the law was weak through the flesh. Did God, in the beginning, have any reason to believe that we would NOT sin and be faithful to Him who created us? Your question isn't logical. If God didn't think we would sin why was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world before man was created, and why does scripture say the law is weak through flesh?

I agree with you NOEB Angels nor Demons can die. The creation of Adam was about the Angelic Conflict. God created the first man Adam a living soul for the very purpose of death. The Lamb of God, the only begotten man child of God was slain, would see death, before the first man Adam was created. Death was in the world before the first man Adam was created. And Darkness (Satan) upon the face of the deep. And God said let there be light and there was light. Light, God came on the scene as Light. He divided the light from the darkness, See John 11:9,10 Jesus answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day? If any man walk in the day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light of this world. But if a man walk in the night, he stumbleth, because there is no light in him.

Here is why Adam was created the way he was.

Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

God will be glorified in those Satan the Devil caused to die by giving them eternal life through the resurrected slain Lamb Jesus Christ our Lord.

[Jemand]

Angels sinned.

The Bible neither says nor teaches that the angels were created in God’s own image like man was (see Gen. 1:26-27). Therefore, although some of the angels sinned, there is nothing in the Bible to suggest that God believed that we would sin.

He created man with mortal flesh to be tempted with and then gave him the opportunity and choice to sin knowing the law was weak through the flesh.

Jesus had the identical flesh that Adam had, and Jesus did not sin. God did not expect Jesus to sin even though Adam did. Why? Because sinning is contrary to the nature of God. Adam was created by God in His own image and hence sinning was contrary to his nature until Eve persuaded him to sin, having been tempted herself by the serpent. Did God know that the serpent would tempt Eve to sin? The Bible neither says nor teaches that God knew that the serpent would tempt Eve to sin and that the nature of man would be changed because of it.

Did God, in the beginning, have any reason to believe that we would NOT sin and be faithful to Him who created us?

Yes, of course He did—He created man in His own image!

If God didn't think we would sin why was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world before man was created,

The Lamb was NOT slain from the foundation of the world. He was slain AFTER man sinned and needed to be saved from sin.

Revelation 13:8. And all that dwell on the earth shall worship him, every one whose name hath not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that hath been slain. (ASV)

Revelation 13:8. and all who dwell on earth will worship it, every one whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that was slain. (RSV)

Revelation 13:8. All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain. (NASB, 1995)

Revelation 13:8. and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that was slain. (ESV)

Revelation 13:8. and all people of the world will worship it, that is, everybody whose name has not been written down since the foundation of the world in the sacrificial Lamb's book of life. (NJB)

Revelation 13:8. All the inhabitants of the earth will worship it, all whose names were not written from the foundation of the world in the book of life, which belongs to the Lamb who was slain. (NAB)

Revelation 13:8. and all the inhabitants of the earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that was slaughtered. NRSV)

and why does scripture say the law is weak through flesh?

Rom 8:1. Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
2. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.
3. For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,
4. so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

The Law does not have the ability to strengthen a mortal man, helping him to resist temptation; but God does have that ability though the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus.

Where in the Bible do you read that God knew before He created Adam that Adam would be tempted to sin? The flesh itself, is neutral, neither good nor bad, and it cannot, therefore, cause anyone to sin. People sin only when the devil takes advantage of the weakness of their flesh and tempts them to sin—as he tempted Eve in the garden.

(All quotations from Scripture are from the NASB, 1995)

[ManofFaith]

Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.

[-SEEKING-]

Since you've now posted this thing 5 times, I'm wondering why.

[John 8:32]

I don't disagree with you. Yet at the same time, when God created all things for His pleasure, everything would have been good until evil enters the picture. Then we have to keep God's foreknowledge in mind. Here's an interesting question. Which came first? The creation of angels and men? Or the creation of hell for all the ones that would be bad? What I'm getting at, was punishment an afterthought in God's mind, meaning angels, men, etc, going bad, so now there needs to be a way to punish these? Or was there already a place of punishment in God's mind, even before He created anything? If there was, then how was everything created for God's pleasure, with Him knowing many would have to suffer for all eternity, this assuming eternal suffering is true?

Just a quick answer, I'll try to fill in with scripture in a later post. Anyhoo, God is a family. God created man to enlarge His family, (bring many SONS to glory). God did not want any of His sons to make the same terrible choice Satan made (The Devil was perfect until he chose the way of lawlessness, iniquity was found in him). So He made man temporary (the soul that sins shall die) until man could make a choice. If man (in full knowledge of the truth) chose God's way, at the resurrection he would be given eternal life. If he chose the way of sin and lawlessness, man would simply be put out of his misery and not allowed to trouble God's perfect creation of family. (Rom 6:23 and Deut 30:19).

I realize this is a very bare-bones skeleton of the plan of God, but as I said, I'll try to fill it in later.

[percho]

Just a quick answer, I'll try to fill in with scripture in a later post. Anyhoo, God is a family. God created man to enlarge His family, (bring many SONS to glory). God did not want any of His sons to make the same terrible choice Satan made (The Devil was perfect until he chose the way of lawlessness, iniquity was found in him). So He made man temporary (the soul that sins shall die) until man could make a choice. If man (in full knowledge of the truth) chose God's way, at the resurrection he would be given eternal life. If he chose the way of sin and lawlessness, man would simply be put out of his misery and not allowed to trouble God's perfect creation of family. (Rom 6:23 and Deut 30:19).

I realize this is a very bare-bones skeleton of the plan of God, but as I said, I'll try to fill it in later.

While you are thinking, think on this.
Ex 19:8 And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the LORD.
Ex 24:3 And Moses came and told the people all the words of the LORD, and all the judgments: and all the people answered with one voice, and said, All the words which the LORD hath said will we do.

Until man could make a choice?-----There is a reason for election.

Hebrews 10:18,19 This [is] the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

Do you see we will anywhere in the new covenant?