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Thread: Question I've Never Really Seen Answered

  1. #76
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    Re: Question I've Never Really Seen Answered

    Quote Originally Posted by percho View Post
    And was all this decided from the foundation of the world and or before time began?
    The former of these two concepts is found in the teachings of the Gnostics. For example, we read in the Gospel of Philip, a Coptic-Gnostic tractate,

    53:8-9. “he [Christ] voluntarily laid down his life from the very day the world came into being,”(translated by J. M. Robinson).

  2. #77
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    Re: Question I've Never Really Seen Answered

    Quote Originally Posted by Jemand View Post
    The former of these two concepts is found in the teachings of the Gnostics. For example, we read in the Gospel of Philip, a Coptic-Gnostic tractate,

    53:8-9. “he [Christ] voluntarily laid down his life from the very day the world came into being,”(translated by J. M. Robinson).
    And it’s taught in the Bible by the Apostle Peter:

    1 Peter 1:17. If you address as Father the One who impartially judges according to each one's work, conduct yourselves in fear during the time of your stay on earth;
    18. knowing that you were not redeemed with perishable things like silver or gold from your futile way of life inherited from your forefathers,
    19. but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ.
    20. For He was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you
    21. who through Him are believers in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God. (NASB, 1995)

    Christ was foreknown as Christ (i.e. Deliverer) BEFORE the foundation of the world. Christ was foreknown as deliverer because God created with a Deliverer in mind when He created (i.e. God foreknew creation would need delivering).

  3. #78

    Re: Question I've Never Really Seen Answered

    There is a difference in saying he actually did it at foundation of the world and saying it was the plan from the foundation of the world.

  4. #79
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    Re: Question I've Never Really Seen Answered

    Quote Originally Posted by LookingUp View Post
    And it’s taught in the Bible by the Apostle Peter:

    1 Peter 1:17. If you address as Father the One who impartially judges according to each one's work, conduct yourselves in fear during the time of your stay on earth;
    18. knowing that you were not redeemed with perishable things like silver or gold from your futile way of life inherited from your forefathers,
    19. but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ.
    20. For He was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you
    21. who through Him are believers in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God. (NASB, 1995)

    Christ was foreknown as Christ (i.e. Deliverer) BEFORE the foundation of the world. Christ was foreknown as deliverer because God created with a Deliverer in mind when He created (i.e. God foreknew creation would need delivering).
    The Hebrew word Messiah occurs only twice in the Old Testament and only twice in the New Testament.

    Dan. 9:25. “So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty- two weeks; it will be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of distress.
    26. “Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined.”

    John 1:41. He *found first his own brother Simon and *said to him, “We have found the Messiah” (which translated means Christ).

    John 4:25. The woman *said to Him, “I know that Messiah is coming (He who is called Christ); when that One comes, He will declare all things to us.”

    In all four of these verses, the Messiah is seen as the deliverer of the Jewish people from the oppression of the Gentiles. He is NOT seen in any of these verses as the deliverer from sin or as the Lamb of God. It may be argued from 1 Peter 1:20, however, that the oppression of the Jewish people by the Gentiles was wrong, or even that the Jewish people were oppressed because they sinned, and that, therefore, God knew from before the foundation of the world that some people would sin against Him. Nonetheless, to extrapolate from that argument the concept that God knew that Adam would sin and that all of mankind would sin is quite imaginative. Was God so desirous of human companionship that He created Adam and Eve even though He knew that a consequence would be suffering in agony for eternity for billions of people, hundreds of millions of whom lived more upright lives than the average Christian but who never heard the gospel and hence were never saved? Moreover, is not the expression, “before the foundation of the world,” a hyperbolic figure of speech rather than a literal reference to time? Is it not much more likely that when God created man in His own image, He expected man to be faithful to Him?

    (All quotations from Scripture are from the NASB, 1995)

  5. #80

    Re: Question I've Never Really Seen Answered

    Quote Originally Posted by Jemand View Post
    The former of these two concepts is found in the teachings of the Gnostics. For example, we read in the Gospel of Philip, a Coptic-Gnostic tractate,

    53:8-9. “he [Christ] voluntarily laid down his life from the very day the world came into being,”(translated by J. M. Robinson).
    I did not know it existed or the translator either.

    I do know about Peter and John.

  6. #81

    Re: Question I've Never Really Seen Answered

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb View Post
    There is a difference in saying he actually did it at foundation of the world and saying it was the plan from the foundation of the world.
    My concept is it was the plan and in the mind of God for the Lamb to be slain about 4000 years after it was said let there be light.

  7. #82

    Re: Question I've Never Really Seen Answered

    Quote Originally Posted by Jemand View Post
    The Hebrew word Messiah occurs only twice in the Old Testament and only twice in the New Testament.

    Dan. 9:25. “So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty- two weeks; it will be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of distress.
    26. “Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined.”

    John 1:41. He *found first his own brother Simon and *said to him, “We have found the Messiah” (which translated means Christ).

    John 4:25. The woman *said to Him, “I know that Messiah is coming (He who is called Christ); when that One comes, He will declare all things to us.”

    In all four of these verses, the Messiah is seen as the deliverer of the Jewish people from the oppression of the Gentiles. He is NOT seen in any of these verses as the deliverer from sin or as the Lamb of God. It may be argued from 1 Peter 1:20, however, that the oppression of the Jewish people by the Gentiles was wrong, or even that the Jewish people were oppressed because they sinned, and that, therefore, God knew from before the foundation of the world that some people would sin against Him. Nonetheless, to extrapolate from that argument the concept that God knew that Adam would sin and that all of mankind would sin is quite imaginative. Was God so desirous of human companionship that He created Adam and Eve even though He knew that a consequence would be suffering in agony for eternity for billions of people, hundreds of millions of whom lived more upright lives than the average Christian but who never heard the gospel and hence were never saved? Moreover, is not the expression, “before the foundation of the world,” a hyperbolic figure of speech rather than a literal reference to time? Is it not much more likely that when God created man in His own image, He expected man to be faithful to Him?

    (All quotations from Scripture are from the NASB, 1995)
    The goal. Last enemy is being destroyed the death.
    ---------that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, NASB ????

    Did God know at this moment: And God saw the light, that [it was] good: and God divided the light from the darkness; he was going to bring about the destruction of death?

    Did Adam invent death or did Adam bring death to all men, which I would assume would include the man child Jesus?

    Just how was God going to destroy death and make powerless him who had the power of death?

  8. #83
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    Re: Question I've Never Really Seen Answered

    Quote Originally Posted by Youssarian View Post
    Question: God in his foreknowledge knew that Adam and Eve would fall. He knew of the sin and all the horrible things that we humans would have to endure over the thousands of years afterward. He knew we would become so depraved that only the death of his own Son could save us. He knew that even afterward some would still continue to reject him. And he knew that at the end of it all, there will be people who spend eternity in the lake of fire along with Satan and his minions. So why, despite knowing all of this, would he create us in the first place? Does the good that comes out of all this outweigh the bad? Can one really say, "Yes there are millions who are in the lake of fire; but look at the millions more who are not!"

    I know that God made humanity so that we would choose to love and worship him, and that we by our own free will rejected him. But it the physical and eternal suffering of so many worth God being loved and worshiped by a lesser amount of people than those who don't?

    I once saw this question answered as such: A married couple may choose to have a child. They know that the child, in its lifetime, will experience injury, doubt, pain, loss, watch as others die, and eventually die itself. Yet they still choose to bear that child. Why? Because their love compels them to do so. To have that child and raise it as best they can. Does this explanation hold water? Did God choose to have us out of intense love? I would almost daresay that a couple's desire to have children despite knowing the kid would eventually endure suffering is selfishness (I don't believe that, but let's roll with it for the sake of argument), fulfilling selfish desires to procreate. Is God, thus, being selfish?

    This isn't as much a faith-threatening issue to me as much a curiosity. I know God exists, even if his actions make no logical sense to me. There's order in the chaos. Still, it is something a skeptic or otherwise inquisitive person might ask, and I'd like to see what the answer would be.
    This is a really good question! I have a friend at work that asked the same thing. Although it was in a condescending manner because he is not a Christian. He went so far as to say that he could not believe in a God who would play such a "game". I said that it is only a game if you haven't invested anything in it. (he is a big gambler... mostly poker) I said, when you invest your last dime... it suddenly stops being a "game". God put all of creation into this. And sent his only son to die. It is not a game for him. It is everything. I don't have a great answer to your actual question though... except that i think we tend to view God as sort of being outside looking in. But really he is the one who suffers the most ("if" for some) and when people are cast into the lake of fire for all eternity.

  9. #84
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    Re: Question I've Never Really Seen Answered

    Quote Originally Posted by jesse View Post
    But really he is the one who suffers the most ("if" for some) and when people are cast into the lake of fire for all eternity.
    I guess I don't see the logic in this. If God casts folks into the LOF to suffer for all eternity, then I don't see how you are concluding God suffers the most. I'm sensing you're meaning that He suffers because He feels bad about doing that. But you have to keep in mind, He's the one that has created the LOF. So obviously then, He doesn't mind folks suffering for all eternity, even tho the punishment doesn't fit the crime, meaning that no one has ever sinned for all of eternity, yet they suffer for all of eternity. Only thing I know for a fact about the matter is this. Whatever God is going to do, God is going to do. Nothing we can do to change any of that.

  10. #85
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    Re: Question I've Never Really Seen Answered

    Quote Originally Posted by awestruckchild View Post
    Youssarian, did Lily's explanation make no sense to you?
    Before the awful bickering began, back on....pages one and two, did none of it help to answer at all your question of why He created to begin with?
    Lily's post... the one about evil prevailing? Yes, that did help. Also one of the first answers I got saying, "It was worth it to God," also seems to be a reasonable answer.

    Quote Originally Posted by percho View Post
    Let me ask you. Why do you think God made the first man Adam that all this pain and misery originated with. Does man learn anything from suffering? Without suffering we could not recognize Grace if it hit us in the face.
    Was it the purpose in creating Adam in the image of God and taking the woman from Adam done to bring about the begetting of the Son of God / the Son of Man with the woman or was that just plan B in case something went wrong with plan A the creation of Adam?
    Was the purpose of the creation of man in the image of God, not done in order for God to beget a Son in the image of the first man Adam for the destruction of Satan the Devil and therefore allowing men in the image of Adam to be re-created born again in the image of his resurrected Son Jesus Christ?

    And was all this decided from the foundation of the world and or before time began?
    God knew what was going to happen (Jermand, we must agree to disagree on this, sorry), so it didn't catch him off-guard. Still, you could sit there and wonder, "Was that REALLY necessary?"
    Dext3r Ministries, my ministry blog.

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    You are the Lord, our God. May I live by faith for you.

  11. #86
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    Re: Question I've Never Really Seen Answered

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    I guess I don't see the logic in this. If God casts folks into the LOF to suffer for all eternity, then I don't see how you are concluding God suffers the most. I'm sensing you're meaning that He suffers because He feels bad about doing that. But you have to keep in mind, He's the one that has created the LOF. So obviously then, He doesn't mind folks suffering for all eternity, even tho the punishment doesn't fit the crime, meaning that no one has ever sinned for all of eternity, yet they suffer for all of eternity. Only thing I know for a fact about the matter is this. Whatever God is going to do, God is going to do. Nothing we can do to change any of that.
    There is one other thing you can know absolutely about the matter: God is good - He is righteous/just and merciful. He proved that on the cross. He took our sin upon Himself and bore our burden that we might live eternally with Him.

    Whether you want to view the LOF as literal and eternal or not, the real point is that it is separation from God which at least will feel/seem very much like being in a lake of fire. Jesus, however, offered a solution:

    But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life. (John 4:14)

    Everyone that will can drink. He offered it to a samaritan woman and he offers it to all. I empathise with you in having concern for those who won't, so did Paul. But God's offer is for all. If we confess our sins, he his faithful and just/righteous to forgive us our sins and cleanse us of all unrighteousness.

    What more should we ask of Him? Should we never have been able to dwell in God's love or should God never be able to express His love to us? Should evil have had it's way eternally before God ever said "Let there be light?"

    I think it is good that things arent in our hands to decide.









  12. #87
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    Re: Question I've Never Really Seen Answered

    Quote Originally Posted by Youssarian View Post
    Question: God in his foreknowledge knew that Adam and Eve would fall. He knew of the sin and all the horrible things that we humans would have to endure over the thousands of years afterward. He knew we would become so depraved that only the death of his own Son could save us. He knew that even afterward some would still continue to reject him. And he knew that at the end of it all, there will be people who spend eternity in the lake of fire along with Satan and his minions. So why, despite knowing all of this, would he create us in the first place? Does the good that comes out of all this outweigh the bad? Can one really say, "Yes there are millions who are in the lake of fire; but look at the millions more who are not!"

    I know that God made humanity so that we would choose to love and worship him, and that we by our own free will rejected him. But it the physical and eternal suffering of so many worth God being loved and worshiped by a lesser amount of people than those who don't?

    I once saw this question answered as such: A married couple may choose to have a child. They know that the child, in its lifetime, will experience injury, doubt, pain, loss, watch as others die, and eventually die itself. Yet they still choose to bear that child. Why? Because their love compels them to do so. To have that child and raise it as best they can. Does this explanation hold water? Did God choose to have us out of intense love? I would almost daresay that a couple's desire to have children despite knowing the kid would eventually endure suffering is selfishness (I don't believe that, but let's roll with it for the sake of argument), fulfilling selfish desires to procreate. Is God, thus, being selfish?

    This isn't as much a faith-threatening issue to me as much a curiosity. I know God exists, even if his actions make no logical sense to me. There's order in the chaos. Still, it is something a skeptic or otherwise inquisitive person might ask, and I'd like to see what the answer would be.

    This is what I have personally come to understand. That which God made in the beginning, in it's purest state, without sin, was nothing more than a seed for which to make Himself all in all. I believe His plan was to bring that spiritual Majesty from just the spiritual into the physical as well, so to speak, and He gave us, man, the honor of being able to bear His holy Image, through faith in His Son. And all seeds get planted in soil, and in this fallen world, there are weeds that come up around us, there are droughts and wildfires, there are floods and there are times of ample rain, there are times of snow and times that things rest for a season.
    Don't seek too much knowledge. You just may be putting more weight on your shoulders than you're able to bare. Let God be the one to decide how quickly you grow.

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