Question about the "binding of Satan" from Revelation 20 -

[Caleb]

Luke 11:20 But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you.21When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace: 22But when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him, he taketh from him all his armour wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils.

It says the one "stronger than he" which should be understood to be speaking of Jesus comes upon the strong man and overcomes him He then "divideth his spoils" not takes all his spoils. People aren't saved by force. Jesus binding the strong man gives people the opportunity to be set free from the strong man but they have to choose whether to take advantage of the opportunity and believe in Him or not. I see no basis for reading the parables He told regarding the strong man and thinking they had anything to do with everyone being saved. It has to do with everyone being given the opportunity to be saved but everyone must choose whether to believe in Christ or not.

Luke is just one passage:

Luke 11:21 When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace:
Luke 11:22 But when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him, he taketh from him all his armour wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils.

Mark 3:27 "But no one can enter the strong man's house and plunder his property unless he first binds the strong man, and then he will plunder his house.

Matt 12:29 "Or how can anyone enter the strong man's house and carry off his property, unless he first binds the strong man? And then he will plunder his house.

Amils (I think) say that this passage is about Satan being bound from deceiving the nations, but Jesus says that it is about taking his goods (that which belongs to the strongman)
According to the passage, Not only might the strongman not be able to deceived them, but he has no rights, possession or power over them. The stronger man plundered, seized, carried them off from the one bound.

Later in Acts, Paul/Saul is commissioned to deliver the people from the power of Satan to the power of God. How does Paul/Saul do this if Jesus (the power of God) has already bound Satan and seized, carried off his possessions?

[quiet dove]

I just went back and grabbed the OP as to not get side tracked...wouldn't want to be one of those long winded people

Just for the record this post was made only toward myself because I have made some rather long post lately...I noticed their were some longer post here and I certainly was not intending to insinuate anything I was only poking at myself based on another long post I had made in another forum. At the time I had not paid that much attention in here until after making the comment.


The post are great...keep it up...provoking thought and conversation.

I hope my playfulness this morning was not mistaken.

[John146]

Later in Acts, Paul/Saul is commissioned to deliver the people from the power of Satan to the power of God. How does Paul/Saul do this if Jesus (the power of God) has already bound Satan and seized, carried off his possessions?

The reason Paul was able to deliver people from the power of Satan to the power of God is because Satan had already been bound from keeping the truth of God's word from being delivered to the Gentiles. It was Christ's death and resurrection that ensured that the gospel would go out to the entire world and there was nothing Satan could do to stop that. He was not going to be able to keep the world in spiritual darkness any longer because the light (Christ) had come and died for the sins of the world so that they could be delivered from spiritual darkness.

Acts 26:16 But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee; 17Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee, 18To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

Before Paul took the gospel to the Gentiles had they ever been shown the light of the gospel and God's word before? For the most part, no, they had not. I believe Satan needed to be bound in order for that to no longer be the case.

[Nihil Obstat]

Could you give me a headstart tho? In what way are you concluding death and grave are described throughout the Scriptures? The reason I ask, I may do the study, but come out seeing death and the grave described differently than you might. This could mean that I wouldn't be on the same page as you right from the start.

All I mean is that one of the ways being dead is described in scripture is as being bound and imprisoned underground. The grave is depicted as having bars and stone walls. When hades is anthropomorphized, it is often described as having an insatiable appetite, always opening its mouth beneath our feet. That kind of stuff. And this is the kind of thing we see in Rev. 20 concerning the dragon. It is thrown, bound in chains, into a bottomless pit. Which to me says that what we're seeing there is the death of the dragon. And the prophets and psalmists spoke much the same way about the many-headed Leviathan and about Rahab the great serpent, where these sea-beasts would be cut down and destroyed, even salted and eaten. But within Revelation, there is this permeating theme of death followed by resurrection (unto a final judgment). The beast of Rev. 13 is seen arising out of the sea, where first ten horns crest out of the waters, and then seven heads, but one of the heads looked as if it had been slain, and now was healed. This is exactly how the lamb having seven horns and seven eyes was described: as if it had been slain. Now, often when this beast is taught about today, there is this task of attempting to make sure that we understand that the beast only "faked" its death, and so its "healing" is only one of deception - but John doesn't do this. Instead, he lets his readers feel the unease. The beast's head really had been slain, and really had been healed and lived again: the beast died and rose again. The same holds true for the dragon: it died, and a thousand years later was resurrected.

In that case, I can't help but respect you for that. If we can't dare search things for ourselves, but instead, let everyone else do our thinking for us, one then has to wonder why each of us have our own brain? But I do believe in trying to work together with other people. But when it comes to Eschatology, it seems like we're all trying to make the Bible conform to our positions, be it preterism, amil, premil, postmil, etc., which then makes working together not so easy.

Yeah, I guess there's a little bit of postmodernism and fundamentalism in all of us.

[Caleb]

The reason Paul was able to deliver people from the power of Satan to the power of God is because Satan had already been bound from keeping the truth of God's word from being delivered to the Gentiles. It was Christ's death and resurrection that ensured that the gospel would go out to the entire world and there was nothing Satan could do to stop that. He was not going to be able to keep the world in spiritual darkness any longer because the light (Christ) had come and died for the sins of the world so that they could be delivered from spiritual darkness.

Acts 26:16 But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee; 17Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee, 18To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

Before Paul took the gospel to the Gentiles had they ever been shown the light of the gospel and God's word before? For the most part, no, they had not. I believe Satan needed to be bound in order for that to no longer be the case.

Being in darkness is one thing, but if as you believe that Satan was already bound, then he cannot have had any power over them for Paul to deliver them from.

[Caleb]

All I mean is that one of the ways being dead is described in scripture is as being bound and imprisoned underground. The grave is depicted as having bars and stone walls. When hades is anthropomorphized, it is often described as having an insatiable appetite, always opening its mouth beneath our feet. That kind of stuff. And this is the kind of thing we see in Rev. 20 concerning the dragon. It is thrown, bound in chains, into a bottomless pit. Which to me says that what we're seeing there is the death of the dragon. And the prophets and psalmists spoke much the same way about the many-headed Leviathan and about Rahab the great serpent, where these sea-beasts would be cut down and destroyed, even salted and eaten. But within Revelation, there is this permeating theme of death followed by resurrection (unto a final judgment). The beast of Rev. 13 is seen arising out of the sea, where first ten horns crest out of the waters, and then seven heads, but one of the heads looked as if it had been slain, and now was healed. This is exactly how the lamb having seven horns and seven eyes was described: as if it had been slain. Now, often when this beast is taught about today, there is this task of attempting to make sure that we understand that the beast only "faked" its death, and so its "healing" is only one of deception - but John doesn't do this. Instead, he lets his readers feel the unease. The beast's head really had been slain, and really had been healed and lived again: the beast died and rose again. The same holds true for the dragon: it died, and a thousand years later was resurrected.



Yeah, I guess there's a little bit of postmodernism and fundamentalism in all of us.

Does Satan die?

Do angels die?

Luke 20:33 Therefore, in the resurrection, whose wife does she become? For all seven had her as wife."
Luke 20:34 And Jesus answered and said to them, "The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage.
Luke 20:35 But those who have been counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage;
Luke 20:36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.

Is Jesus saying that angels don't or cannot die?

[Nihil Obstat]

I think you're missing my overall point that what John saw isn't actual, but thematic.

[John146]

Being in darkness is one thing, but if as you believe that Satan was already bound, then he cannot have had any power over them for Paul to deliver them from.

You are misunderstanding my view. I don't believe his binding has to do with making him completely powerless over people. What it did was make him powerless to stop Paul from coming in to preach the gospel to the Gentiles so that they could learn how to be delivered from the power of Satan unto God. If he wasn't bound then I believe he could have kept Paul from preaching the gospel to the Gentiles and thereby keeping the Gentiles in spiritual darkness as a result.

[divaD]

Does Satan die?

Do angels die?

Let's think about satan for a moment, keeping in mind he is an enemy to God,

1 Timothy 6:13 give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession;
14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

The conclusion I draw is this. Only God possesses immortality. This tells me that it is God who bestows anyone with immortality, such as He has done with the good angels in heaven, with Jesus, and with us some day. So I would conclude immortality would be the greatest blessing God could ever give anyone, but not saying the giving of His Son isn't the greatest blessing as well. So why then would God bless any of His enemies with immortality? Have you never considered what is stated in Genesis 3?

Genesis 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:


This part...and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life. That is said in regards to the serpent who has been identified as satan elsewhere in Scriptures. So how can this being still be eating dust in the LOF, if all the days of it's life really means forever?

[John146]

Let's think about satan for a moment, keeping in mind he is an enemy to God,

1 Timothy 6:13 give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession;
14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

The conclusion I draw is this. Only God possesses immortality. This tells me that it is God who bestows anyone with immortality, such as He has done with the good angels in heaven, with Jesus, and with us some day. So I would conclude immortality would be the greatest blessing God could ever give anyone, but not saying the giving of His Son isn't the greatest blessing as well. So why then would God bless any of His enemies with immortality?

I'm pretty sure that being in everlasting torment would not be a blessing.

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever

[divaD]

I'm pretty sure that being in everlasting torment would not be a blessing.

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever

So you would then conclude that being bestowed with immortality would not be a blessing to anyone, since it would not be a blessing to satan? Of course you wouldn't. I'm only trying to think my way thru these things, so it's not that I am saying it's like this or it's like that. So how then does one square Genesis 3:14 with that of Rev 20:10? Is Genesis 3, in regards to the serpent, this is not really meaning satan after all? I would think all the days of thy life indicates an end somewhere in sight, especially since the serpent wouldn't be eating dust forever I wouldn't think.

[John146]

So you would then conclude that being bestowed with immortality would not be a blessing to anyone, since it would not be a blessing to satan?

Is that at all what I said? No.

Of course you wouldn't.

So, why ask that question then?

I'm only trying to think my way thru these things, so it's not that I am saying it's like this or it's like that.

I'm just trying to help you see the big picture, that's all.

So how then does one square Genesis 3:14 with that of Rev 20:10? Is Genesis 3, in regards to the serpent, this is not really meaning satan after all?

No, I think it is referring to him. How does your view fit with Rev 20:10?

I would think all the days of thy life indicates an end somewhere in sight, especially since the serpent wouldn't be eating dust forever I wouldn't think.

I don't see that it has to mean that. I don't see why it can't mean "all the days of thy life" forever.

[divaD]

Is that at all what I said? No.

So, why ask that question then?

I asked that in case onlookers new to the faith were viewing. Didn't want to give them the impression that being bestowed with immortality would not be a blessing, just because it wouldn't be a blessing to satan. I clearly understood your point, and it most certainly wouldn't be a blessing to satan, but that doesn't mean that being bestowed with immortality is not a blessing then.

I'm just trying to help you see the big picture, that's all.

No, I think it is referring to him. How does your view fit with Rev 20:10?

I don't see that it has to mean that. I don't see why it can't mean "all the days of thy life" forever.

I would think we would have to first determine what is meant by eating dust, before we could determine all the days of thy life. As far as Rev 20:10, it certainly says he will be tormented day and night forever. With that in mind then, all the days of thy life could be meaning up until the time he is cast into the LOF, which then doesn't require that he ever has to physically die. That's one way to look at it anyway. But I wouldn't think eating dust all the days of his life would be continued in the LOF tho.

[warfrog]

I asked that in case onlookers new to the faith were viewing. Didn't want to give them the impression that being bestowed with immortality would not be a blessing, just because it wouldn't be a blessing to satan. I clearly understood your point, and it most certainly wouldn't be a blessing to satan, but that doesn't mean that being bestowed with immortality is not a blessing then.

I would think we would have to first determine what is meant by eating dust, before we could determine all the days of thy life. As far as Rev 20:10, it certainly says he will be tormented day and night forever. With that in mind then, all the days of thy life could be meaning up until the time he is cast into the LOF, which then doesn't require that he ever has to physically die. That's one way to look at it anyway. But I wouldn't think eating dust all the days of his life would be continued in the LOF tho.

But then it couldnt mean until he was cast into the Lof since it explicitley says in the prophecy that he will be tormented endlessly once hes tossed in there with the beast and false prophet.
Wouldnt it most certianly mean for all eternity? Which goes on when hes cast into the Lof? Hes not tormented when hes bound, hes shut up, sealed and can decieve no more until he is released, which he is released at the end of the thousand years to decieve again, therfore, the binding and the Lof are certianly 2 seperate events as the binding is circumstantial based on a time of the thousand years, but the Lof is endless.

[divaD]

But then it couldnt mean until he was cast into the Lof since it explicitley says in the prophecy that he will be tormented endlessly once hes tossed in there with the beast and false prophet.
Wouldnt it most certianly mean for all eternity? Which goes on when hes cast into the Lof? Hes not tormented when hes bound, hes shut up, sealed and can decieve no more until he is released, which he is released at the end of the thousand years to decieve again, therfore, the binding and the Lof are certianly 2 seperate events as the binding is circumstantial based on a time of the thousand years, but the Lof is endless.

Why couldn't it? I would think eating dust is only relevant to satan's dealing with men.So then, once satan and man are cast into the LOF, satan is no longer eating dust, but instead is being tormented forever. Notice the following passage.

Isaiah 65:25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.

This part...and dust shall be the serpent's meat. What exactly does that mean in relation to this passage, especially since this passage seems to be meaning during the new heavens and a new earth time?