Hi BroRog,Originally Posted by BroRog
Nothing in the verse about the Second Advent.
When will we know fully, just as we are fully known?
Watchman
Jesus is Lord
Hi BroRog,Nothing in the verse about the Second Advent.
When will we know fully, just as we are fully known?
Watchman
Sunset remembers Eden...sunrise prophesies its return.
Coffee Break
Yes.Hi BroRog,
When will we know fully, just as we are fully known?
Watchman
Paul sets up a comparison between "now" and "then." Those who think that Paul is talking about the Second Advent suppose that the "now" is the time during the writing of the letter to the Corinthians, and the "then" represents a future time when Christ returns. They suppose that "the perfect" is Christ Jesus. In this case, Paul admits to his readers that not even he knows perfectly or fully. He, like us, has a clouded understanding of things and can't know things clearly, until Jesus returns when, at that time, he will finally understand everything clearly.
This is, frankly, a very bizarre notion, which Christians seem willing to accept on the fact of it, since we all make mistakes in our interpretations and we all seem to need correction and Bible study. But I don't know anyone who would say the same thing about the Apostle Paul or the other Apostles. Paul, for instance, says he has the mind of Christ, indicating that he has an expert grasp of what Christ would say in any given situation and he knows the gospel with crystal clarity. The same goes for Peter who wrote that he has everything pertaining to Life and godliness. If Peter saw through a glass darkly, he would be lying to suggest he had everything pertaining to Life and Godliness. If Paul were seeing through a glass darkly, he would be lying to suggest that he had the mind of Christ.
So what IS the contrast Paul is making between "now" and "then"? The contrast between "now" and "then" is the comparison between a Christian who hasn't yet adopted the "more excellent way". Such a Christian is "now" seeing as through a dark glass. But when such a Christian adds love to his spiritual gift, he sees things clearly. Before a Christian adopts the more excellent way, adding love to his gift, he only knows himself in part. But when such a Christian adds love to his (or her) spiritual gift, such a Christian knows himself as others know him.
Paul is talking about self-knowledge here.
Why does someone look in mirror? Don't they want to see themselves? And what happens when one looks at himself in a distorted mirror? He has incomplete or inadequate information about himself. But other people aren't looking at him through a distorted glass. They see that man face-to-face. They see him as he really is. We see each other with perfect clarity. We easily recognize the sin in others. We easily see when others do the wrong thing. We easily see the faults, frailties, limitations, and imperfections of others. But when we look at ourselves, we seem unable (or unwilling) to see when we sin; we fail to recognize our own faults; we don't see ourselves do the wrong thing; we think we are pretty tight with the Lord and that other people can learn something from us.
Paul is saying, "when you see yourself as others see you, then you will be patient, kind, gracious, forgiving, respectful, seeking the best for others, loving others, keeping the faith, rejoicing in what is right, not rejoicing in what is wrong. In order for a Christian to adopt the more excellent way, a Christian needs to see himself (or herself) as others see him. Love for others is born out of a clear understanding of who and what we are. Once we discover that we are no better or no worse than anyone else, once we discover that we are no more, but no less worthy of love than anyone else, once we see ourselves for who and what we are, as other people know us face to face, then we will be able to love others and adopt the more excellent way.
Posting Freak
MaryFreeman and Slug1 - how I so wish I could witness the types of instantaneous healings you two claim to have witnessed. I never get to see a "healing" even though I have experienced answered prayers. The healings that I read about; I've never seen. I have wanted them, I have prayed for them, and I have watched for them; but they never happen.
Before you claim that it is only because I have "little faith," don't bother. I fully expected to see it happen.
I don't know what word, Mary, to use in place of the sounds I have heard in church where people started making noises with their mouth that were repetitive syllabels. Gibberish is a recognizable English word that represents what I have heard, but I guess I can see where you may offended by it. I apologize for that, and no offense is intended. It is just a simple word for unrecognizable syllabels.
Just like with instantaneous healing, it is something that I have not experienced. I have witnessed none of the "sign gifts" mentioned in scriptures. If they are real, perhaps you guys could ask God to show me one of those signs? I have, but so far, I have been shown nothing except His normal miraculous days and blessings in my life.
May God bless both of your lives and thanks for your responses,
המשיח הגיע בבשר
It is testimonies such as this that prove that the gifts have not ceased. When we are faced with them the alternatives are few. We can accept them as God.We can walk in unbelief and say they are delusion and thereby quench the Spirit or we can take the most dangerous path of attributing them to satan. When the Pharisees did this they were in danger of blaspheming the Holy Spirit. Defining the "perfect" as the completed bible is ridiculous. Especially when Paul tells us a few chapters later what the "perfect" actually is.I've been involved with a healing ministry local where I live... healing happens so much, I'm glad I'm not the one having to do the tracking and documenting
All I do is praise God!
One night we had a women come in off the street. She wore a veil due to a severe outbreak from the herpes disease that she had. During prayer she was healed, completely. She tossed the veil away before she left that night.
While there are also healings that take place over multiple times of prayer, many are instant and complete. A person with Aids came 5 times, each time this person suffered less and had lessening of the symptoms. After the 5th prayer, they were healed and no more virus in their system.
Just 3 weeks ago our church won an auction for a school building that is to become our new church. The auctioneer had on a back brace. After all the proceedings were over we talked with him and offered to pray for healing. He said sure... mind you, this is an injury he's had for years and he was telling us that he'd spent time in the hospital the previous week due to aggravating the injury by "throwing" out his back. So we prayed, and the look on his face was classic... he then began to bend, turn and stretch much more normal. We praised God!
Lord,one thing I ask...use me for your glory.
Does Jesus like me?
Boo.... I don't know how long you have been a christian and I would never claim to know how much faith you have or don't.... What I will tell you is this.... Jesus went around preaching and teaching.... AND THEN healing....
Mat 4:23 KJV And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people.
A wise man once told me that he had asked God why He didn't heal him.... He had all the faith in the world that God would.... And God said "You have faith as far as you know.".... In other words.... He had faith in what he knew but did he know enough? Did he know that God already did?
Peter says "by His stripes we WERE healed"....
Perhaps instead of repeatedly asking.... You could start thanking....
And if you keep looking for signs.... I'm sure the devil wouldn't mind showing you one....
Get grounded in the word of God.... Then you can tell the difference....
As far as a spiritual language.... Did you WANT to have this experience? Or did you approach it as "not real" to begin with? Maybe you should approach it with an open heart.... I don't know.... Because I am not with you.... I don't attend the same church and I don't live in Florida.... We don't speak regularly.... So I cannot answer definitively.... I do know that doubtful people shouldn't expect much....
Jas 1:5-7 KJV If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. (6) But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. (7) For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.
Perhaps this waiting period is a test of the steadfastness of your faith?
I don't know.... So I couldn't tell you.... I know it couldn't be that you don't have enough faith because we all come with the same measure....
My Church....
TO ALL MEN EVERYWHERE: Seek Justice.... Love Mercy.... Walk Humbly With Your God.... Let the watchers become warriors! Let the men of God arise!
TO ALL LADIES EVERYWHERE: There could never be a more beautiful you.... Defy the lies and disguises and hoops they make you jump through.... You were made to fill a purpose that only you could do....
My Facebook page....
guest
His teaching and His preaching IS what healed those that His word's touched.
He went no place to heal, He ONLY healed what asked-of-Him-while-He-was-on/in/along His way or paths to work His Father's will on the earth that day preaching and teaching us to do the co-work with Him of His Father's will so we would have co-inheritance with Him in eternity !
Our healing and or His miracles, they: are a fringe benefit of His day's work...
They: are the wind of His work's wake/affect...
They: are the dust stirred by His foot's paths while working His Father's will that day on the earth !
If we think Christ went just to Lazarus to heal him, read the story again, or the sleeping maiden, or the centurion's servant, or the leaper, or the maimed/crippled, or the demon-possessed.
No.. they were in His way or path "that day", is when and why they were healed by Him that day... those stories make note of that if we read to look diligently for Him in them, rather than look for and at the miracle that was manifest by His preaching and teaching while on His way or paths that day.
The miracles were the wake/effect of His foot's paths to do His Father's work and will that day He walked and they were healed on the same day.
Open eyes n ears today Father, have mercy please.
Father bless those who look to you, but have mercy on all of us to glorify your name.
guest
The perfect came when they had the complete doctriene of the church in for them to study and learn.
That is out of context of the passage.
Christ wouldn't leave us here with partial supplies.
guest
As I have asked you before..
How do you get 2nd advent when the the Perfect is aimed at the completion of the partial.
You conclusion is in grave error by ignoring the context and adding in a new subject that is in no way covered in any of the previous verses here.
In essence the passage is saying
We half a cup half full of milk, and it is currently being filled.
When it is filled which will be soon, then we will have a complete cup of milk and we will no longer need to keep filling it. So the milk tap will shut off.
Now you are saying..
We now have a half of cup of milk, the tap is running but nothing is being filled..
However when dad takes us to Disneyland land 20 years from now we can get full cups of milk, yay!!
( We have to wait large amounts of time to get a full cup of milk?)
guest
Yes, in the passage before us, Paul is setting up a comparison between “now” and “then.” Yes, the “now” is the time during the writing of the letter to the Corinthians. However, the “then” is the Second Advent—the Parousia. None of the scholars whom I have read, and I have read many of them, suggests that Paul’s knowledge at the time of writing was “perfect,” or that he himself thought that his knowledge was perfect. However, you may ask, what about 1 Cor. 12-16,
1 Cor. 2:12. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God,
13. which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual [/]words.[/i]
14. But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.
15. But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no one.
16. For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, THAT HE WILL INSTRUCT HIM? But we have the mind of Christ. (NASB, 1995)
Surely Paul is not claiming that the spiritual man has the measure of the knowledge of Christ that he will have upon the Second Advent! No, Paul is referring in this passage to the moral judgment of Christ. Indeed, he is laying down the foundation for what he is about to write in chapter 5, and his authority for writing what he writes in that chapter.
I could quote numerous commentators on the Greek text of 1 Corinthians who share my understanding of 2 Cor. 13:10, but for the sake of brevity, I shall quote from one that is representative. Thomas Charles Edwards wrote in his A Commentary on the First Epistle to the Corinthians (1885),
τὸ τέλειον, “the fully developed;” not merely perfect knowledge, but generally “the perfect state of things.” Maier and Evans well observe that ἔλθῃ contains an allusion to the second coming of Christ. The parousia will bring with it all that is perfect. The course of history is a progress towards perfection in so far as it marches onwards to the Advent.
I have in my personal library many commentaries on the Greek text of 1 Corinthians written by English, German, and French scholars, and none of them even so much as alludes to the understanding that you have presented in your post. Do you know of such a commentary or an article in a peer-reviewed journal?
guest
The Master's Seminary Journal (Fall 1993)
1 COR 13:11 REVISITED
AN EXEGETICAL UPDATE
Robert L. Thomas
Reasons Why to teleion Cannot Mean "the Perfect" in 13:10
The most common definitions of the English word "perfect"
applied to 1 Cor 13:10 would probably include:(a) being entirely without fault or defect5Either of these three or a combination of them is the usual
(b) corresponding to an ideal standard or abstract concept
(c) the soundness and the excellence of every part, element, or
quality of a thing frequently as an unattainable or theoretical state.
notion the average person attaches to the word. All three are
qualitative in nature, a characteristic that renders them unsatisfactory
renderings of to teleion. Four reasons demonstrate this:
(1) No other use of teleios in Paul can possibly mean "perfection"
in the sense of the absence of all imperfection. In fact, the meaning of
"perfection" in Greek philosophers`that of a "perfect" man`is absent
from the NT. Utopian perfection was a philosophical notion, not a
NT idea, for this word. Elsewhere in Paul the adjective is figurative
and refers almost exclusively to a grown man (cf. 1 Cor 2:6; 14:20; Phil
3:15; Eph 4:13; Col 1:28; cf. also Heb 5:14).
One other time, in Col 4:12,it means "mature" in the OT sense of wholeness and obedience to
God's will, and picks up on his ambition for every man as stated in Col 1:28.10
So six out of the other seven times Paul uses the word, it means "mature."
The remaining use is in Rom 12:1 where its meaning is "complete."
This pattern of usage establishes a strong probability that the word includes the sense of maturity in 1 Cor 13:10,
especially since its other two uses in 1 Corinthians have that sense.(2) In the immediate context of 1 Cor 13:8-13, a qualitative word
is unsuitable in light of the apodosis of the sentence in 13:10. "Perfect"
is not a suitable opposite to k mroyw ([ek merous], "partial"). A better
meaning would be "whole" or "complete" as antithetical to ek merous.12
(3) The terminology of 13:11 is most conclusive, however,
because it is an analogy with the stages of human life (i.e., npiow [npios,
"child"] and nr [anr, "child"]).(a) This analogy directly impacts the meaning of to teleion
in 13:10, because it sets up a teleios/npios antithesis in vv. 10-11 that is
relative, not absolute, and therefore incompatible with the concept of
perfection. The difference between childhood and adulthood is a
matter of degree, not one of mutually exclusive differentiation.
(b) The npios/anr antithesis in v. 11 has the same contextual effect of ruling out the notion of an ideal state as denoted by
the translation "perfect."(4) The terminology of 13:12 requires an allusion to degrees of
revelatory understanding, not perfection or freedom from
imperfection. The verbs blpomen (blepomen, "I see") and ginskv (ginsk,
"I know") correlate with the gifts of prophecy and knowledge and their
limited insights compared with the complete understanding that will
prevail in the future. This is quantitative, not qualitative, so to teleion
must have the same quantitative connotation.
Hence both etymological and contextual considerations argue
emphatically against the meaning "perfect" for to teleion.
המשיח הגיע בבשר
You have demonstrated that your knowledge of Greek is sophomoric and weak. Why do you keep trying to pretend that you are some expert? Anyone with any real Greek knowledge can see right through the charade.
Jesus is Lord
What, if anything, is your point, Colight? State it in your own words and don't hide behind the words of others. What is the point of your post? it is simply idiotic to hold to your idea that the perfect refers to something NEVER prophesied. The perfect meaning the completed canon of scripture is about as out of context as my personal hygiend habits.
Sunset remembers Eden...sunrise prophesies its return.
Citizen
**
I am NOT expressing this as my point of view, but as I was searching both sides of this discussion this caught my eye.
“that which is perfect,” literally means “the complete thing” (neuter gender) —in contrast to “that which is in part” (or incomplete). If it is the case, then, that “the perfect” is a reference to Christ, and further, that the term, “coming,” is an allusion to his final return, one would be forced to conclude that Christ himself was “incomplete” or “partial” in the era prior to the event of his second coming.
Thoughts?
Jesus is Lord
Or would it be our knowledge of Him was incomplete prior to His return?
Sunset remembers Eden...sunrise prophesies its return.
Citizen
**
Im posting these articles to get input. I will admit that now that I do believe the "perfect" is the bible, but I want input from both sides. Not to start an arguement, but to learn more.
Cessation of Miracles: Two Contexts Considered
Were miraculous gifts to abide with the church until the end of time, or, due to their specific design, were they only a temporary phenomena? This matter is discussed rather comprehensively in two New Testament contexts. We will consider each of these.
In 1 Corinthians 13, the inspired apostle addresses the duration of spiritual gifts in the Lord’s church. He commences by showing that these gifts must be exercised in love, for miraculous powers, void of love, were worthless. This theme was quite appropriate in view of the disposition of rivalry which threatened the unity of the Corinthian congregation (some exalting certain gifts above others, etc.).
From this initial instruction there is a very natural transition into the character and permanence of love, in contrast to the transitory function of spiritual gifts.
Of the nine gifts mentioned in 12:8-10, Paul selects three to illustrate his argument. Significantly, all three were related directly to the revealing of God’s will to man. The apostle affirms that prophecies shall be done away, tongues shall cease, knowledge (i.e., supernatural knowledge) shall be done away. It is wonderfully clear, therefore, that these three gifts (and by implication all miraculous gifts) were not designed to be a permanent fixture within the church.
In 1 Corinthians 13:9, Paul contends that God’s will, by means of these spiritual gifts (knowledge, prophecy, etc.) was made known gradually, i.e., “in part.” The expression “in part” translates the Greek to ek merous, literally, “the things in part.” It denotes “a part as opposed to the whole” (Abbott-Smith 1923, 284).
And so, we make the following argument: The “in-part” things shall be done away. But, the in-part things are the supernatural gifts by which the will of God was revealed. Thus, the supernatural gifts, by which the will of God was made known, were to be terminated.
But the question is: when were these gifts to pass away? The answer is: “When that which is perfect is come.” In the Greek Testament, the expression literally reads, to teleion, “the complete thing.” The term “perfect,” when used of quantity, is better rendered “complete” or “whole.”
A noted scholar observes: “In the Pauline corpus the meaning ‘whole’ is suggested at I C. 13:10 by the antithesis to ek merous” (Kittel 1972, 75). In his translation of the New Testament, J. B. Phillips renders it, “when the Complete comes, that is the end of the Incomplete.”
So, we may reason as follows: Whatever the in-part things are partially, the whole is, in completed form. But, the in-ppart things were the spiritual gifts employed in the revealing of God’s will (word). Therefore, the whole was God’s will (word)—as conveyed through the gifts—completely revealed.
Within this context, therefore, the apostle actually is saying this:
God’s revelation is being made known part-by-part, through the use of spiritual gifts; when that revelation is completed, these gifts will be needed no longer, hence, will pass away from the church’s possession.
As noted scholar W.E. Vine observed:
With the completion of Apostolic testimony and the completion of the Scriptures of truth (“the faith once for all delivered to the saints”, Jude 3. R.V.), “that which is perfect” had come, and the temporary gifts were done away (1951, 184).
Remember this vital point: spiritual gifts and the revelatory process were to be co-extensive. If men are performing miracles today, their messages are as binding as the New Testament record! If such is the case, the New Testament is not the final word.
This theme is similarly dealt with in Ephesians 4, where it is affirmed that when Christ “ascended on High” he “gave gifts unto men” (vv. 8ff). The gifts were miraculously endowed functions in the church (e.g., apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers). The design of these capacities was “for the perfecting katartismos of the saints.”
The original word denotes “complete qualification for a specific purpose” (The Analytical Greek Lexicon n.d., 220). Or, as Arndt and Gingrich render it, “to equip the saints for service” (1967, 419).
Moreover, the duration of these supernatural governments was specified. They were to continue “till we all attain unto the unity of the faith” (4:13). “Till” is from mechri, and it suggests a “specification of time up to which this spiritual constitution was designed to last” (Ellicott 1978, 95).
The word “unity” (henotes) basically means “oneness” (_The Analytical Greek Lexicon n.d., 119). It derives from the term hen, the neuter of heis, and it emphasizes oneness “in contrast to the parts, of which a whole is made up” (Arndt and Gingrich 1967, 230).
Finally, the expression “the faith” refers to the revealed gospel system (cf. Galatians 1:23; 1 Timothy 5:8).
And so, to sum up: the apostle contends that spiritual gifts would continue until the gospel system, in its individual parts (as portrayed in 1 Corinthians 13), came together in oneness, i.e., the completed or whole revelation (New Testament record) (see MacKnight 1954, 335). Ephesians 4 and 1 Corinthians 13 are wonderfully complimentary.
http://www.christiancourier.com/articles/5-miracles
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