That which is perfect

[LookingUp]

Some say “the complete thing” is the coming of Christ or Christ Himself. Christ certainly is complete, but as Paul progresses in the context, he tells us two things about the complete thing: 1) it’s in contrast to the partial thing and 2) it’s deeply connected with the maturity of the church. If the “partial thing” refers to prophecy/knowledge, I’d say that defines it as “the partial revelation,” since revelation of God’s word is what prophecy is. Logically, then, the “complete thing” would be the full revelation of God’s word, the complete canon of Scripture. This corresponds nicely to Paul’s vision of the church growing from childhood to adulthood, the same metaphor he uses in Ep. 4:11-16. If one views that the completeness doesn’t come until the return of Christ, this means that Paul does not envision the church to be mature in the sight of God until Christ returns, but I don’t think that’s what Paul envisioned. Paul expected the church to attain maturity in his lifetime: “until we all attain to the unity of the faith and the full knowledge of the Son of God, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ” (Eph. 4:13).

[Watchman]

Some say “the complete thing” is the coming of Christ or Christ Himself. Christ certainly is complete, but as Paul progresses in the context, he tells us two things about the complete thing: 1) it’s in contrast to the partial thing and 2) it’s deeply connected with the maturity of the church. If the “partial thing” refers to prophecy/knowledge, I’d say that defines it as “the partial revelation,” since revelation of God’s word is what prophecy is. Logically, then, the “complete thing” would be the full revelation of God’s word, the complete canon of Scripture. This corresponds nicely to Paul’s vision of the church growing from childhood to adulthood, the same metaphor he uses in Ep. 4:11-16. If one views that the completeness doesn’t come until the return of Christ, this means that Paul does not envision the church to be mature in the sight of God until Christ returns, but I don’t think that’s what Paul envisioned. Paul expected the church to attain maturity in his lifetime: “until we all attain to the unity of the faith and the full knowledge of the Son of God, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ” (Eph. 4:13).

Why do you think the church has ever yet grown to the full stature of Christ?

W

[LookingUp]

Why do you think the church has ever yet grown to the full stature of Christ?

W

I think Paul believed it would in his lifetime. It's not written if it actually did.

[Colight]

Here is your original claim:

We are ORDERED to live by faith( faith lacks sight and signs), to chase this visual signs is IMHO a violation of such order.

My 'beef' is your claim that faith 'lacks sight and signs'. As I stated previously, this is a different claim than saying we ought not to 'chase this visual signs'... And this claim I left alone. In your most recent reply, you're getting more at the second claim ('faith is not to be based on sight') than the first, and the second claim I don't have much of an issue with.

The result of faith can have a some observable instance, like the cancer is gone..
or you got that job when you needed it most,
or even some how when the odds was against you... you pulled thru.

This may offend some....
But one is not to partake in what I see as strange acts and then call that a method to grow faith.
Like wearing bed sheets and waiting on hill sides for Christs return, or what I see as speaking strangely and calling that tongues, or offering some tid bit of wisdom and calling that the gift of knowledge.
From what I have seen...These are not methods of a result of faith nor do they cause any growth in faith..

When you say, "faith lacks sight and signs" you (1) adopt a modern understanding of faith; (2) contradict what you obviously believe elsewhere. The faith of the immediate apostles and disciples of Christ did not lack 'sight and signs', they walked and talked with God. The faith of the Old Testament prophets and major characters also did not lack 'sight and signs'. The faith of many believers today does not lack 'sight and sign'.

Correct, many in the churches today do what I see as strange things, and if you do not follow in their strange ways..
then you lack faith.
They say..
You cant see God or speak with him because you lack faith...for if you had faith you would be able to do these strange acts like they can.
Therefore that is why I say. they are promoting faith by sight and signs.
Faith is not by Sight and signs

For example, if you were to read or quote the rest of Hebrews 11:1 then you would not make the claim that faith is not 'based on sight' (did I point out yet that 'sign' is conspicuously missing in your latest post?). v. 7 "By faith Noah, when warned..."; v.8 "By Faith Abraham, when called..."; v.17 "by faith Abraham, when God tested him..."; v. 30 "By faith the walls of Jericho fell..." The in between verses go to support my point as well, but so does the Greek pistis, the word used for faith, which is very much unlike our English word 'faith'. These people communicated with God, their faith certainly wasn't made in the absence of anything, but in the very real presence of God.

These events was a result of faith, not a means to build faith.

What we have today is a lot of people doing what I see as strange things in Church and claiming it is something that builds faith.
And if you do not accept their strange things as some legit act of God, then you lack faith in the power of God.
Their actions are not a result of faith.

Now what is occurring in Hebrews is the author is pointing these acts from the result of faith as encouragement to keep in faith.

As a result your interpretation and application of Hebrews 10:38 takes on a dimension other than what you seem to be suggesting. That is, it doesn't seem to be speaking of abandoning faith in favour of pursing something 'based on sight'.

With these examples of faith in the past, what was the object of their faith while they was in the process of such great faith?

[Athanasius]

Do you mind defining what you mean by 'faith' before I reply to your post?

[John146]

Some say “the complete thing” is the coming of Christ or Christ Himself. Christ certainly is complete, but as Paul progresses in the context, he tells us two things about the complete thing: 1) it’s in contrast to the partial thing and 2) it’s deeply connected with the maturity of the church. If the “partial thing” refers to prophecy/knowledge, I’d say that defines it as “the partial revelation,” since revelation of God’s word is what prophecy is. Logically, then, the “complete thing” would be the full revelation of God’s word, the complete canon of Scripture.

Where does Paul even hint at "the complete thing" as having anything to do with "the complete canon of scripture"?

This corresponds nicely to Paul’s vision of the church growing from childhood to adulthood, the same metaphor he uses in Ep. 4:11-16. If one views that the completeness doesn’t come until the return of Christ, this means that Paul does not envision the church to be mature in the sight of God until Christ returns, but I don’t think that’s what Paul envisioned. Paul expected the church to attain maturity in his lifetime: “until we all attain to the unity of the faith and the full knowledge of the Son of God, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ” (Eph. 4:13).

Do you believe the church attained maturity during Paul's lifetime or at any time since then? I don't. I see no evidence of that whatsoever. I believe the only way the entire church can attain maturity is by us all being changed and having incorruptible and immortal bodies. It just isn't going to happen until then. We are nowhere near "the unity of the faith" right now. Just look at all the disagreements on this forum. Scripture simply does not teach that the church would get more mature over time. Instead, it teaches a great falling away from the faith as we get closer to Christ's return.

2 Thess 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

When exactly do you see the church as a whole attaining maturity? It certainly couldn't happen yet at the point when the falling away occurs, so when would it happen? Also, Jesus asked if He would find faith on the earth when He returned so it didn't appear that He expected to find a mature church at His return:

Luke 18:7 And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them? 8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

[John146]

I think Paul believed it would in his lifetime. It's not written if it actually did.

That was his hope and he made it clear that was the goal, but that doesn't mean it actually happened in his lifetime or has ever happened since then. I can't see that as being "the perfect", or as you put it "the complete thing", that he said would come (1 Cor 13:10). He spoke with certainty of "the perfect" coming but I don't see how he could have been certain that the church would ever reach the level of unity of the faith that he talked about. I can see how he would have hoped for that to happen but not that he could have been certain that it would happen the way he was certain that "the perfect" would come.

[Colight]

Do you mind defining what you mean by 'faith' before I reply to your post?

Dictionary definition of faith.

Faith is confidence or trust in a person or entity.
Mostly it is about Trust.
I trust God will do as he promised, and really do not need any signs or proof from him that he will carry through..
I know he will deliver , because he stated he would.

The Centurion of Matt 8 covers most of that rather nicely,

[LookingUp]

Where does Paul even hint at "the complete thing" as having anything to do with "the complete canon of scripture"?

If the “partial thing” refers to prophecy/knowledge, I’d say that defines it as “the partial revelation,” since revelation of God’s word is what prophecy is. Logically, then, “the complete thing” would be the full revelation of God’s word, the complete canon of Scripture.

Do you believe the church attained maturity during Paul's lifetime or at any time since then?

It’s not written, so I can only guess if what Paul envisioned for the Church came to pass during his lifetime. I can’t say that I’ve seen it in my lifetime, though.

I believe the only way the entire church can attain maturity is by us all being changed and having incorruptible and immortal bodies. It just isn't going to happen until then. We are nowhere near "the unity of the faith" right now.

Well then I guess you have less hope for the Church than Paul did, because he did believe it was attainable without us all being changed into incorruptible bodies (Eph. 4:13).

That was his hope and he made it clear that was the goal, but that doesn't mean it actually happened in his lifetime or has ever happened since then.

True.

I can't see that as being "the perfect", or as you put it "the complete thing", that he said would come (1 Cor 13:10).

Oh, well you misunderstood me. I didn’t say that the unity of faith was “the complete thing”; I said “the complete thing” is the full revelation of God’s word, the complete canon of Scripture.

He spoke with certainty of "the perfect" coming but I don't see how he could have been certain that the church would ever reach the level of unity of the faith that he talked about.

What was “coming” and had not yet come was the complete revelation of God’s word. They had partial prophecy/knowledge (i.e. partial revelation) but soon it would be complete (i.e. full revelation).

I can see how he would have hoped for that to happen but not that he could have been certain that it would happen the way he was certain that "the perfect" would come.

Exactly. Paul was hopeful regarding the level of unity of faith but was certain that “the complete thing”, full revelation, would come.

[John146]

If the “partial thing” refers to prophecy/knowledge, I’d say that defines it as “the partial revelation,” since revelation of God’s word is what prophecy is. Logically, then, “the complete thing” would be the full revelation of God’s word, the complete canon of Scripture.

I disagree. I think there's a relation between the prophesying in part and knowing in part. Prophets would often prophesy of things that they didn't even fully understand and know about. Look at Daniel, for example. Some of the things he prophesied made his head spin. That's what I think it means to "prophesy in part". To prophesy of things that they didn't have a full understanding about. I believe "to know in part" means that while scripture does reveal a lot of things to us it does not reveal everything. We can't see heaven. We can't see angels and give details on all of their activities. As John said in 1 John 3:2, "it doth not yet appear what we shall be". There's still a lot that we don't know.

And to "know in part" is contrasted with knowing fully just as we are known. Do you think you know fully just as you are known rather than knowing in part? If so then please explain how that can be the case and what your understanding of knowing just as your are known means. I think we have to be careful about thinking that we know just as we are known. Look what Paul said here:

1 Cor 8:1 Now as touching things offered unto idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth. 2 And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know.3 But if any man love God, the same is known of him.

I can't see how anyone can think we already know just as we are known in light of a passage like this.

Well then I guess you have less hope for the Church than Paul did, because he did believe it was attainable without us all being changed into incorruptible bodies (Eph. 4:13).

I think the state of the church is worse now than it was way back then so I believe he would agree with my view of the current state of the church if we were able to get his opinion on it today.

Oh, well you misunderstood me. I didn’t say that the unity of faith was “the complete thing”; I said “the complete thing” is the full revelation of God’s word, the complete canon of Scripture.

Okay. What was your point in bringing up what Paul said about the unity of the faith then?

What was “coming” and had not yet come was the complete revelation of God’s word. They had partial prophecy/knowledge (i.e. partial revelation) but soon it would be complete (i.e. full revelation).

You would agree that the perfect would come once believers no longer saw through a glass, darkly and could see face to face and no longer knew in part but knew as they were also known (1 Cor 13:12), right? It seems clear that is what Paul was implying since he indicated in verse 10 that "when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.". So, I'd like to know how you interpret 1 Cor 13:12 since the fulfillment of that verse coincides with the fulfillment of 1 Cor 13:10.

[LookingUp]

I disagree. I think there's a relation between the prophesying in part and knowing in part. Prophets would often prophesy of things that they didn't even fully understand and know about. Look at Daniel, for example. Some of the things he prophesied made his head spin. That's what I think it means to "prophesy in part". To prophesy of things that they didn't have a full understanding about. I believe "to know in part" means that while scripture does reveal a lot of things to us it does not reveal everything. We can't see heaven. We can't see angels and give details on all of their activities. As John said in 1 John 3:2, "it doth not yet appear what we shall be". There's still a lot that we don't know.

No doubt there’s still a lot that we, as individuals, don’t know. But we only know what has been prophesied (i.e. revelation) whether it reveals as much as we’d like to know or not. Nevertheless, “they knew in part because they prophesied in part.” When “the complete thing” came (the canon), partial revelation was done away (i.e. prophesy in terms of God’s story, the canon, was fulfilled), because the full revelation had come. Just because we have the full revelation of God doesn’t mean we know everything; it just means that we have enough to “fully know just as we have been fully known.” We are only limited by our own perceptions.

And to "know in part" is contrasted with knowing fully just as we are known. Do you think you know fully just as you are known rather than knowing in part?

No, I don’t.

If so then please explain how that can be the case and what your understanding of knowing just as your are known means. I think we have to be careful about thinking that we know just as we are known. Look what Paul said here:

I have read stories of believers who know just as they are fully known. The full revelation of God, the canon, is the foundation and life experiences stand upon it. There are some unique individuals whose lives are blessed enough (some might say cursed) to fuse with what is revealed in Scripture and it’s these who come to the place of “fully knowing.” So, yes, it is possible to “fully know” just as one is fully known. I suspect Paul was one.

I think the state of the church is worse now than it was way back then so I believe he would agree with my view of the current state of the church if we were able to get his opinion on it today.

Yes, on the “current” state of the church.

Okay. What was your point in bringing up what Paul said about the unity of the faith then?

Because Paul did.

You would agree that the perfect would come once believers no longer saw through a glass, darkly and could see face to face and no longer knew in part but knew as they were also known (1 Cor 13:12), right?

No. The “complete thing” came with the full revelation of God’s word. Prophecy is revelation. We have the full revelation of God’s word.

It seems clear that is what Paul was implying since he indicated in verse 10 that "when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.".

Sure. Do we need more than the canon? Do we have the full revelation of God’s word (this side of eternity)?

[Watchman]

Well, this thread is becoming rather circular, so I’ll post a bit of a summation and leave it to y’all to come up with the right conclusion! But first, a confession. The intent of this thread was to disprove that the completed canon is that which is perfect. I am continuing to prayerfully study whether the perfect is actually spiritual maturity, the return of Christ, or the end, as written of in 1 Corinthians 15. The reason I wanted to disprove the notion that the completed canon of scripture is the perfect is because that is a damaging pov, and unsupported by scripture itself. It leads to legalism, which causes folks to become burned out from working in their own power. It leads to churchianity, which is not what being a Christian is about. And it leads to denial of the power of God to work through His children nowadays. It leads to a sterile, powerless religion that acknowledges God, but denies His power. It leads to depending upon our own abilities to correctly interpret scripture, instead of relying totally upon the Author of scripture to teach us what He meant.

A good case can be made for the perfect being spiritual maturity. A closely related passage in Ephesians 4 tells us gifts were given for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry UNTIL the church matures into the full stature of Christ...a future occurrence. Paul’s focus, in writing to the saints in Corinth, was to address their IMmaturity, and to set in motion the process of their becoming mature. He called them babies in chapter 3, after having said he spoke a message of wisdom among the mature...something they were not ready to receive. He showed that the gifts of the Spirit, apart from love, were worthless. He wrote an eloquent treatise on love, and capped it with a comparison of the immaturity of a child and the maturity of a man. Parenthetical to his discussions of immaturity and maturity, we find that when the perfect comes, the partial will pass. The partial referred some of the manifestations of the Spirit—manifestations given to build, to grow, to mature the body of Christ. It is not a stretch, then, to see that the perfect is the complete maturity, both individually and corporately, of the church. Of course, when the complete has come, then the incomplete is no longer needed.

A good case can also be made for the pov that the perfect refers to Christ’s second coming. That will be a time when we will see Him face to face, will appear like Him, and will understand perfectly. Whether this is eschatologic wording, I am uncertain at this time. Jemand has made a quite compelling case for this pov. In fact, I believe that Jesus will return for a spotless, mature Bride—so the maturity of which I spoke above, and His second coming, may well coincide.

Yet another good case can be made for the perfect being the end, telos...the completion. That is the time when Christ will present the kingdom to our Father. That will be very close in proximity to His return, IMO.

At any rate, as I said, my purpose in starting this thread was to dispute that the perfect = the Bible. That has been done quite ably, quite thoroughly, and quite decisively. Even though we have not reached a consensus, this has been a profitable thread, and I appreciate the time and efforts of all involved.

One last thing: what revelation might we need that is not contained in the Bible? We absolutely need the revelation of where God has placed each of us in the body of Christ, because different parts of the body have different functions. There are NO cookie-cutter Christians. We absolutely need the momentary guidance of the Spirit to know the good works He prepared in advance in which for each of us to walk. Walking denotes timing and sequence of steps. This is supported by OT readings that state the Lord tells the end from the beginning, and that He orders the steps of the righteous. The works, their timing, and their sequence are not found withing the pages of Holy Writ. In short, apart from the leading and guidance and empowerment and illumination of the Holy Spirit, the scriptures will not help us. It takes both the script AND the Author for us to properly handle the word of truth.

blessings,

Watchman

[Colight]

To properly study and understand scripture one must look at the Language, Context, and proper exegesis.
One must also have a open mind with out pre-bais at the start.

Then as you learn what is being taught
One must look for doctrinal conflicts to test what is being taught.
For me... There are too many doctrinal conflicts for THE COMPLETE to be any thing other than a reference to the completion of the doctrine of the church contained in New testament scripture.



The back ground.

Paul is dealing with a immature Childish in spirit Church who are getting carried away with the spiritual gifts of that day. They are fussing over what gift is best and having improper use of the gift with in the church.
Therefore Paul has to clean house.

The Doctrine to the church is not complete, there for much of what Paul writes is new revelation.
Paul is the Apostle to the Gentile Church, therefore his authority of these matters is absolute.

The Church being new uses Gifts to spread the doctrine, but soon that will be replaced with a scripture that is directed at this New dispensation of the Church, that scripture is to be the New Testament.

Therefore when Paul states..



1 cor 13

8 Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away.
9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part;
10 but when the Complete comes, the partial will be done away.

( TEACHING EXAMPLES )

11 When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things.
12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known.


13 But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.

Paul states rather than focusing on Gifts we should focus on faith, hope, love for these would endure thru the mature age of the doctrine of the church...

A corrected translation with notes of 1 cor 13:10

But on the occasion ( the completion of the canon) when the completed ( perfected) is come ( a reference to the entire bible ), the fragmentary ( temporary gifts ) will become inoperative.

For on that occasion the doctrine of the church will be mature, and the doctrine will be as clear as face to face.

The Greek.
The Greek of TO TELEION is the nominative NEUTER singular from the noun TELEIOS which is best translated "the perfect" or "the completed"

We also have precedence for this to refer to scripture in the book of James..TELEIOS synonymous with scripture and was used as such by the Apostle James ("The Perfect Law of Liberty" ) Jam 1:25.. Paul used that same phraseology when he wrote 1 Cor 13:10.

Hence forth the Canon of scripture will serve the same purpose these spiritual gift has once performed. Which is to in a complete way provide a basis for the maturing believer to gauge his progress and examine his doctrine.,

The absolute authority of the word.
These gifts have been canceled, Apostleship, Prophecy, Knowledge, Tongues ,Healing, and other miracles.
For these gifts never had spiritual implications and rather was about establishing the authority of Pastors Apostles and evangelists.
Their abuse led to regulation of the gifts ( 1 cor 14) for as long as they was in use.

Today the Absolute authority is the Word, which certainty needs no authentication, replaced the Authority of these removed gifts.
Once again...
The word should be our final and absolute authority.
The word is now complete thanks to the spiritual gifts of the spirit that helped to reveal it..

[percho]

And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Everything should be fairly complete by then.

[Boo]

This is something I've prayed to God about... why don't He heal EVERYONE in EVERY hospital where Christians go to pray.

Well... since in scriptures when multiple healing was done, it's more about those COMING to Jesus for healing, or coming to the Apostles for healing. So, for a person to GO TO those who need healing, the element of THEIR heart and THEM coming to Jesus for healing is missing.

So this may be a reason for God not prompting any given Christian to GO TO a hospital and heal everyone... who's gonna glorify God if THEY weren't seeking first. This seems to be the reason when that ONE or TWO in any given hospital are SEEKING and God decides it's time to answer... then a Christian is prompted by the Holy Spirit and they go as a servant of God and do whatever the Holy Spirit tells them to do and pray and the person is healed.

Perhaps with this attitude, which appears to be dripping with sarcasm based on your choice of words, God knows whats really in your heart?
The Holy Spirit does the empowering so it's up to God when and where and how much.

Christians have been testifying for years of healings... why is the NEWS needed? Is the news more reliable than those who God has used in the healing of others??

Let me ask you a question... the news broadcasts the killing of Christians when? There are Christians who are UNAWARE that their brothers and sisters out there in the world are being slaughtered due to faith in God. Some Christians may even hear this news but they ignore it, blow it off, disregard it... the SAME WAY Christians can read/hear a testimony and ignore it, blow it off, disregard it.

It happens all the time and this board is testament to that truth. People want to HEAR it on the news, as if that makes it believable. Yet, when they read testimony on this board... oh, yeah, cool... and they disregard it and KEEP harping about lack of healing or that healing DON'T really happen or they keep saying Christians don't need healing.

Same here, faith IN God... so when a prophet of God prophesied over me that in time God would call me to pray for healing over the sick... I had faith it was true and 8 months later, it became reality in my life as a servant of God. So if this prophecy had NOT come to pass yet in my life, I'd still HAVE faith in God BECAUSE faith isn't based on what God can/will DO, it's based on WHO GOD IS.

Having faith in God is all that is needed to also have the faith that God will USE that faith for His purpose(s) also.

It's AT this point where Christians get ALL BENT out of shape. When God wants to PUT into USE, that faith Christians SAY they have... well, when God wants to heal someone, there are less Christians who will ACTIVELY allow themselves to be used in such a way, DUE to their faith. Compared to those Christians who say they have SUCH GREAT faith, signs/wonders aren't needed and will say "NO" to the Holy Spirit when He's prompting them to pray over a person because God's will is that they be healed.

They HIDE behind this actual "lack" of faith and justify this lacking by saying... WE DON'T NEED signs/wonders to have faith!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Seems more like "such" great faith... actually makes them USELESS to God and His purposes because God's purpose(s) don't FIT... their great faith and WHERE God is actually LEADING them... also doesn't FIT their faith!! Especially when God leads a person into the "supernatural" where FAITH makes the supernatural... both possible and acceptable."

Actually, Brother, there are references throughout the New Testament where Jesus and His Apostles visited those who were sick and healed them. They did not all come to him or them.

As for dripping with sarcasm, perhaps you take it that way; but it is a real question. I have not witnessed a miracle healing, even though I have had relief from pain and had my wife experience the same upon a prayerful request to God. She, even when faithfully praying for her healing, has remained in suffering from her illness. No amount of the many prayers for her healing have made her whole, even from those who claim to have the gifts of the Spirit to do so.

Those are real questions, my Brother. We have real needs, but so far, nobody has had the real gift of healing. Those who claim to have been empowered by the Holy Spirit with those gifts because of their faith do much damage to those who believe them and only see their gifts fail time and again. Then, when the healing does not happen, those who could not bring it about lay the blame on us - as if we did not believe God could do it. That is utter nonsense. The failure was not ours.