That which is perfect

[Watchman]

My faith is not n the wisdom and scholarship of men; my faith is in God the Father, His Son Christ Jesus, and the ministry of the Holy Spirit working in and through the lives of men who have yielded to the call to devote their lives to the study of the Scriptures that God may be glorified and the Scriptures be made more clear to a Church distantly removed in time, culture, and language from the writers who penned them. All too frequently, I see on this message board the expression of the concept that scholars of the Bible study it without the ministry of theHoly Spirit working in and through their lives, but I never see anyone supporting that concept with any substantial factual evidence. Surely, thereare a few arrogant and deceived scholars of the Bible whose spirituality is questionable, but they are easy to spot and thus ignore while greatly benefiting from the tens of thousands of scholars of the Bible whom God has blessed with knowledge beyond our own.

Well sir, you place much more emphasis on education than is ever found in scripture. I know how easy it can be to do this, as I’ve spent 21 of the 56 years of my life receiving my formal education. I, too, have been trained and have worked as a scientist…ie as a chemist and now as a doctor of veterinary medicine. It is very easy to overemphasize education and scholarship. You can no more prove that a single commentary writer was working via the guidance of the Holy Spirit than I can prove they weren’t. There is NO substantial, empirical, objective proof either way. There is, though, much much disagreement among scholars. When one begins to say, ‘This scholar, or group of scholars, is right (or better), then a slippery slope toward trusting men, rather than God is easily seen. I have no doubt that many, maybe even most, scholars of scripture are led by the Spirit. BUT, and this is a rather large but, very few people allow themselves to be led by Him to the exclusion oftheir own preconceived notions, biases (especially subconscious biases),previous teachings, and worldview. We all know the struggle between the Spirit and the flesh. The fact that there is ANY disagreement is supportive of that. The trick is this: we must take what is of God while bearing with those who disagree here and there. Isn’t that what bearing each others’ burdens is about?

I am very thankful for those who devote their lives to truth, and I refer to their writings often. But I don’t, and I suspect neither do you, take anything any of them write at face value based upon their academic credentials. A wise man once wrote: Of making many books there is no end, and much study wearies the body.

It is true that such sources are not Scripture, but it is not true that truth is merely scattered through them and that the leading of the Spirit is required to recognize it. Truth is truth, wherever it may be found, regardless of who said it or wrote it or published it. The BDAG lexicon and the best commentaries on the Greek text of the individual books of the New Testament are packed with truth in the form of objectively factual data that is immensely helpful to the user is arriving at an interpretation that is in harmony with all of the pertinent data—a requirement that is absolutely necessary for any interpretation of the Scriptures to be correct. Indeed, if more Christians were to avail themselves of this data, we would have far fewer ludicrously wrong interpretations of Scripture.

Scripture tells us that the Holy Spirit is given to guide us unto all truth. I believe He can do that equally as well with the uneducated and illiterate as He can with those who have had the privilege of education. Truth is, indeed, truth. However, truth is spiritual. Those who are not spiritual, led by the HolySpirit, can neither receive nor understand truth according to Paul. That is why the leading of the Spirit is indispensible. Without it, truth means nothing to us! The Corinthian saints had the indwelling Spirit, yet they were behaving as carnal, fleshly, natural people. People across history have been no different. Simply because one has advanced to the highest academic levels, even with regard to scriptural studies, does NOT mean they have progressed from psuchikos to pneumatikos. The most learned men of Jesus’ time completely missed the very One for whom they were desperately waiting, yes?

God is not a respecter of persons, and if what you were taught was actually taught by the Holy Spirit, we would we find the very same teaching taught throughout the history of the Church—along with, of course, incorrect teachings. That is not, however, what we find. I have acquaintances who are Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, and Muslims—all who believe with the fullness of their being that they have been taught what they believe by the Holy Spirit. I have many more acquaintances who are Christians who believe with the fullness of their being that they have been taught what they believe by the Holy Spirit—but Alas! Their beliefs are extremely varied and they contradict each other!

Amen. God is not a respecter of persons, neither has He taught anyone in a contradictory manner. Your statement ,above, qualifies the quotation marks you previously used around spirit-filled. Folks will attribute their doctrine to the Holy Spirit in an attempt to give it more credence. Then they can sit back and say, “You’re not arguing with me, you’re disputing with God!” Balderdash!

No, the body of Christ will NOT have“grown up into the Head and will have attained the full stature of Christ” at the time of the Second Coming. That was Paul’s prayer for the Church, but he knew from his personal experience with his fellow believers that such a state would not be fully realized until the moment when, “in the twinkling of an eye,at the last trumpet…the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.” That is, the promises of 1 Cor. 13:12 will not be realized “at the time of Christ’s return,” but upon His return. And upon His return, therefore, there will no longer be a need for the gifts of prophesy, tongues, or knowledge—and the gifts of prophesy and knowledge will be done away, the gift of tongues will cease.

We are not in as much disagreement here as it may appear. There will be immature saints at/near Christ’s return…absolutely. However, He will finish the work and cut it short in righteousness, becausethe LORD will make a short work upon the earth. The angels will not be sent to reap unripened fields.

I appreciate the time and thought you put into your replies!

blessings,

Watchman

[Watchman]

One thing I find interesting with regards to those who claim the all-sufficiency of scripture is this: the scriptures do not contain a command from God for men to determine what writings are, and what writings are not, of God. Neither does scripture contain a list of said writings. Further, scripture containeth not a directive from God to bind all the sacred writings into a book. Soooo, the upshot of this is that folks have gone beyond the scriptures to obtain the Bible. I see no way Paul could have been referring to the scriptures, in 1 Corinthians 13, as the perfect. The completed canon of the Bible (as we know it) was never prophesied. The purpose of the scriptures was and is to testify of Christ.

Additionally, if Paul had, in fact, been making a reference to the 'completed scriptures' in this passage, then he would have been breaking the Greek gender rule, since perfect is neuter and scriptures is feminine.

W

[MaryFreeman]

Best thing I've read in ages!

I thought so too.... I figured it fit in good here so I repeated it

Please explain, this doesn't make sense

Human bodies need three things to stay alive.... Water and food and air.... The human spirit needs three things to "survive" as well.... The Spirit (water).... The word of God (food).... And "the assembling of yourselves together" (air).... Too much of one and not enough of another creates an imbalance in your christian walk.... Just as too much food makes you fat.... Or too much water washes away good things.... And too much air makes you faint.... A good christian walk contains the right amount of everything you need to "survive".... Not only that but to thrive.... Your Father knows what is needed and He supplies all things richly....

Yes He does, but also love surley? Love is disciple is it not. Jesus learned obedience through ... can't remember the last word, but I'll look it up in Heb[suffered I think]

Love is the motivation for the discipline.... We disciple people in the things of God because we love them with Gods love.... Just as the Holy Spirit disciples us because He loves us and wants what is the very best for us....

[MaryFreeman]

Not to step over MaryF but here is how I understand a meaning of her comment. If a person reads the Bible withOUT the involvement of the Holy Spirit to illuminate and provide the nourishment as God intended... then a person can read the Bible 24/7 and get nothing from it (dried up). If people say they walk in the "Spirit" and they are not reading the Word of God (too much spirit)... well, they are headed for disaster also.

There is a balance.

Exactly.............................

[divaD]

One thing I find interesting with regards to those who claim the all-sufficiency of scripture is this: the scriptures do not contain a command from God for men to determine what writings are, and what writings are not, of God. Neither does scripture contain a list of said writings. Further, scripture containeth not a directive from God to bind all the sacred writings into a book. Soooo, the upshot of this is that folks have gone beyond the scriptures to obtain the Bible. I see no way Paul could have been referring to the scriptures, in 1 Corinthians 13, as the perfect. The completed canon of the Bible (as we know it) was never prophesied. The purpose of the scriptures was and is to testify of Christ.

Additionally, if Paul had, in fact, been making a reference to the 'completed scriptures' in this passage, then he would have been breaking the Greek gender rule, since perfect is neuter and scriptures is feminine.

W

2 Timothy 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.


So what Scriptures should we be think this is meaning? If we do a word search for Scripture in the NT, it seems like every time that word is used, it's always referring back to something written in the OT.

[MaryFreeman]

2 Timothy 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.


So what Scriptures should we be think this is meaning? If we do a word search for Scripture in the NT, it seems like every time that word is used, it's always referring back to something written in the OT.

My pastors wife loves to say that the OT is best viewed through the eyes of the NT.... IMHO this scripture in 2 Tim. refers to BOTH.... Because I am an NT believer who also finds a lot of spiritual food in the OT....

[Slug1]

My pastors wife loves to say that the OT is best viewed through the eyes of the NT.... IMHO this scripture in 2 Tim. refers to BOTH.... Because I am an NT believer who also finds a lot of spiritual food in the OT....

AMEN! Much that the Body of Christ does spiritually, we read how the Israelis did, "physically". Any spiritual battle we have to deal with the strategy, tactics, means, ways, whys, hows, reasons, etc can all be discerned through all that Israel went through as we follow through with them as we read/study the OT.

[divaD]

My pastors wife loves to say that the OT is best viewed through the eyes of the NT.... IMHO this scripture in 2 Tim. refers to BOTH.... Because I am an NT believer who also finds a lot of spiritual food in the OT....

I agree. But what do you think the author of the passage was thinking when he wrote that? Would he be thinking and knowing that his words would also get compiled into this book we call the Bible, the Holy Scriptures?

[Watchman]

2 Timothy 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.


So what Scriptures should we be think this is meaning? If we do a word search for Scripture in the NT, it seems like every time that word is used, it's always referring back to something written in the OT.

It is, except when Peter referred to Paul's writings.

2 Peter 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Sine Peter referred to Paul much later, Paul was obviously referring to the OT in 2 Timothy 3:15-17.

blessings,

Watchman

[John146]

The eschatological language used in 1 Corinthians 13:12 requires an interpretation that is consistent with the language. As I wrote above, we will NOT know fully just as we also have been fully known until the Second Advent. Nor will we see Jesus face to face until the Second Advent. Let us not confuse the Second Advent with a point in the maturity of believers, but let us understand it to be the Second Coming of Christ and its glorious and immediate consequences:

1 Cor. 15:50. Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
51. Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,
52. in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
53. For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. (NASB, 1995)

Only then will the promise of 1 Cor. 13:12 be realized:

12. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known. (NASB, 1995)

As much as I disagree with you on some things, I agree with you here. We will not know fully as we are fully known until what is described in 1 Cor 15:50-54 occurs, which will be at Christ's second coming. I fully agree that the timing of the fulfillment of 1 Cor 13:10 must match the timing of the fulfillment of 1 Cor 13:12 and I don't see how that can be any other time except Christ's second coming at the last trumpet.

This verse also tells us when we will see face to face, will know fully as we are fully known and the perfect will come:

1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

It "doth not yet appear what we shall be" because we still "see in a mirror dimly". But "when he shall appear...we shall see him as he is" because we will see Him "face to face". When else than this can the perfect be said to have come?

[Jemand]

One thing I find interesting with regards to those who claim the all-sufficiency of scripture is this: the scriptures do not contain a command from God for men to determine what writings are, and what writings are not, of God. Neither does scripture contain a list of said writings. Further, scripture containeth not a directive from God to bind all the sacred writings into a book. Soooo, the upshot of this is that folks have gone beyond the scriptures to obtain the Bible. I see no way Paul could have been referring to the scriptures, in 1 Corinthians 13, as the perfect. The completed canon of the Bible (as we know it) was never prophesied. The purpose of the scriptures was and is to testify of Christ.

Additionally, if Paul had, in fact, been making a reference to the 'completed scriptures' in this passage, then he would have been breaking the Greek gender rule, since perfect is neuter and scriptures is feminine.

W

Thank you for this post and your other posts in this thread that are not only informative, but are also written with the heart of a genuine Christian. For the most part, I agree with your comments in this particular post, but it seems to me, as I read, it, that you do not attribute to the Scriptures the full value of them—and perhaps attribute to other writings more value than they actually have. In other posts, however, it seems to me that you attribute to academic works such as the best lexicons, grammars, commentaries, textual apparatuses, etc., far less value than they have. Therefore, I am not at all sure what value you place upon the Scriptures and other sources of information, or the reasoning behind your valuations.

It also seems to me that I have not succeeded in accurately communicating to you the value that I place on the Scriptures and other sources of information. Moreover, it appears to me that your concept of truth is very different from mine, and very different from that of most people with an education comparable to yours or mine.

I do fully agree, however, that the phrase, “that which is perfect,” in 1 Cor. 13:10 cannot reasonably be interpreted as a reference to the Bible. Indeed, I agree for the reasons that you have posted, and for the reason that among Christians, there is very much disagreement over which writings belong in the Bible, and which ones do not. Indeed, when we compare the Bibles used by various groups of Christians, we find the following writings that are not found in the Protestant Canon but which are found in the Bibles of other groups of Christians:

Books and Additions to Esther and Daniel that are in the Roman Catholic, Greek, and Slavonic Bibles

Tobit
Judith
The Additions to the Book of Esther found in the Greek Version
The Wisdom of Solomon
Ecclesiasticus, or the Wisdom of Jesus, Son of Sirach
Baruch
The Letter of Jeremiah (Baruch ch. 6)
The Additions to the Greek Book of Daniel

The Prayer of Azariah and the Song of the Three Jews
Susanna
Bel and the Dragon

1 Maccabees
2 Maccabees

Books in the Greek and Slavonic Bibles; Not in the Roman Catholic Canon

1 Esdras (2 Esdras in the Slavonic Bible, 3 Esdras in Appendix to the Vulgate)
The Prayer of Manasseh
Psalm 151
3 Maccabees

A composite book in the Slavonic Bible and in the Latin Vulgate Appendix

2 Esdras (3 Esdras in the Slavonic Bible, 4 Esdras in the Vulgate Appendix; “Esdras” is the Greek form of “Era”)

(Note: In the Latin Vulgate, Ezra- Nehemiah are 1 and 2 Esdras.)

A book in an Appendix to the Greek Bible

4 Maccabees (This book is included in two important Bibles from the fourth and fifth century.)

In my personal library, I have well over 100 bibles, and only two of them (two different translations) include all of the books and additions to Esther and Daniel that I have listed above.

[John146]

I agree. But what do you think the author of the passage was thinking when he wrote that? Would he be thinking and knowing that his words would also get compiled into this book we call the Bible, the Holy Scriptures?

I think Paul knew that his writings would be considered scripture even if he didn't know they would all be compiled into one book (along with other NT scriptures). Peter knew that Paul's writings were scripture so it seems to me that Paul himself would have known that as well.

2 Peter 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

[Jemand]

It is, except when Peter referred to Paul's writings.

2 Peter 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Sine Peter referred to Paul much later, Paul was obviously referring to the OT in 2 Timothy 3:15-17.

blessings,

Watchman

I agree that Paul was referring to the Old Testament in 2 Tim. 3:15-16, but was he referring to the Hebrew Canon or the more comprehensive Canon of the Septuagint—the version of the Old Testament that he more often than not quoted from when quoting Scripture, and the Old Testament of the Early Church?

[Boo]

Personally, I think God gave us what we need to know to find and follow Jesus. I believe that we have it and God kept his promise.

I also think we do a great disservice to each other when we pry, parse, separate, dissect and define/redefine all the words in the same way a lawyer plays with law books to get a jury to change an opinion.

If we believe that God knew what He was doing in the past, and that God's hand was in the finding of the Dead Sea Scrolls, and that we have well-translated versions of scriptures to go by; then we may want to accept that we actually have God's Word to guide us. At any rate, we have enough to use in conjuction with the Holy Spirit to guide us on our walk with Jesus.

Our error occurs when we try to change what we are taught in scripture because we don't like it. I know so many who want to throw out verses because they conflict with their desires. People ignore the teachings because the result of the teaching affects their lives and their desired outcomes. We even go to bible book stores to try to find a commentary that agrees with our desired beliefs; and we might even find one! At that point, then we want to claim that everyone else is ignorant and practices heresy.

I wish there was a way to find a church where everything that scripture has taught me was also known at that church - but I don't know which church that would be. In the meantime, I pray, read, and learn what God is teaching me - as a child would accept it - and quit trying to make the words change to meet my desires. For me, the scriptures are "perfect."

And - all of you are my brothers and sisters. I love having such a large family. God bless each of you.

[divaD]

I think Paul knew that his writings would be considered scripture even if he didn't know they would all be compiled into one book (along with other NT scriptures). Peter knew that Paul's writings were scripture so it seems to me that Paul himself would have known that as well.

2 Peter 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

I fully agree. The NT is certainly God inspired writings. I would never doubt that fact. But as to 2 Timothy 3:15-17, personally I agree with what Watchman said in post #24, where he indicated that Paul was obviously referring to the OT in that passage.