That which is perfect

[Colight]

I disagree with many of your opinions about scripture's meaning(s) and with 3) above. The mind of Christ is nowhere (in scripture) said to be in the teachings of scripture.

So whose mind is in scripture if it is not the mind of Christ?

We receive the mind of Christ in the form of the Holy Spirit. This is what scripture teaches: He takes from what belongs to Christ (which is everything), and makes it known to us. We cannot bear all of it at once, so He speaks to us only what He hears. He does not speak of Himself. If you'd work through some of your statements, you'd realize how inoperant they are.

I also know we are to renew our minds, if we just get it when we get the spirit.. then why the order to change our way of thinking.
And what do we use to change it? Voices or the doctrine of scripture.

A person does not even need to be literate to receive the mind of Christ.

Then they better have a good pastor to lead them, if they can not read.

PS: I've already given you solid scriptural basis for needing the momentary guidance of the Spirit for things not found in scripture.

The doctrine in scripture is the thinking of Christ, it is not that hard to apply that thinking to current events.

Your only retort was that some of the references came from the OT...which was rather inane. The Lord orders our steps, and He's prepared, in advance, good works in which for us to walk. He's placed each of us in a different place in the body of Christ, meaning that each of us has a different function in order to help the body operate harmoniously. That scriptural basis, previously given, was (and is still) solid. See again, Psalm 37:23, Ephesians 2:10, 1Corinthians 12:18.

You sure that was me you was talking with?

[BroRog]

Hi BroRog,

Are you saying the indwelling of the Holy Spirit has nothing to do with saints having the mind of Christ?

Yes, that is what I am saying.

After all, since He is to be formed in us, that would be inclusive of His mind, yes?

W

No. The indwelling of the Holy Spirit works, not on our minds, but on our hearts. He doesn't impart information to us; rather, he helps us to accept what we already know is true.

Take Romans 1, for example. In that passage Paul speaks about the fact that humanity knows that God exists, but chooses to suppress that knowledge in order to act unrighteously. The conclusion we draw from this passage is the idea that unbelief isn't a matter of ignorance, but a matter of volition. Unbelief isn't due to a lack of information or a lack of knowledge; unbelief is due to a stubborn unwillingness to acknowledge what we already know to be true.

When Paul says that he has the "mind of Christ", his claim is to have all the information and understanding that Christ shared with the world during his earthly ministry. It is up to his readers/hearers to decide whether to believe him or not. And it is the role of the Holy Spirit to help those of us who want to believe Paul to get over our natural resistance and rebellion to the word of God. We aren't getting supernatural knowledge directly from the Holy Spirit (unless we are a prophet etc.) we are getting supernatural help in overcoming our resistance to the truth. Paul and the other apostles have already given us enough information to become a disciple of Christ and walk as Christ walked and etc. But we need help doing that, which is where the Holy Spirit is our ally. He opens our eyes; he softens our hearts; he works with us during our trials and struggles with the moral and spiritual challenges that everyday life brings our way. He reminds us of what we already know is true during those times when it would be so easy and so convenient to forget it.

[Watchman]

Hi BroRog,

Are you saying the indwelling of the Holy Spirit has nothing to do with saints having the mind of Christ?

Yes, that is what I am saying.

Then I agree to disagree with your pov.

After all, since He is to be formed in us, that would be inclusive of His mind, yes?

No. The indwelling of the Holy Spirit works, not on our minds, but on our hearts. He doesn't impart information to us; rather, he helps us to accept what we already know is true.

Take Romans 1, for example. In that passage Paul speaks about the fact that humanity knows that God exists, but chooses to suppress that knowledge in order to act unrighteously. The conclusion we draw from this passage is the idea that unbelief isn't a matter of ignorance, but a matter of volition. Unbelief isn't due to a lack of information or a lack of knowledge; unbelief is due to a stubborn unwillingness to acknowledge what we already know to be true.

When Paul says that he has the "mind of Christ", his claim is to have all the information and understanding that Christ shared with the world during his earthly ministry. It is up to his readers/hearers to decide whether to believe him or not. And it is the role of the Holy Spirit to help those of us who want to believe Paul to get over our natural resistance and rebellion to the word of God. We aren't getting supernatural knowledge directly from the Holy Spirit (unless we are a prophet etc.) we are getting supernatural help in overcoming our resistance to the truth. Paul and the other apostles have already given us enough information to become a disciple of Christ and walk as Christ walked and etc. But we need help doing that, which is where the Holy Spirit is our ally. He opens our eyes; he softens our hearts; he works with us during our trials and struggles with the moral and spiritual challenges that everyday life brings our way. He reminds us of what we already know is true during those times when it would be so easy and so convenient to forget it.

BroRog, with all due respect, this pov is EXACTLY why the body of Christ is fragmented, divided, and carnal today. The heart includes the mind. Heart (kardia) does not refer to the physical organ but is always used figuratively in Scripture to refer to the seat and center of human life. The heart is the center of the personality, and it controls the intellect, emotions, and will. It is precisely the mind, the emotions, and the will of a person that must be renewed. We are given a new heart at the new birth, and we are given His Spirit. His Spirit dwells within our own spirits and uses them as His 'base of operations' to change our intellects, our emotions, and our wills to conform to God's. Scripture alone is impotent in this regard, because it was never intended to replace the work of the Spirit. It testifies of the work of the Spirit within the saint. Reading scripture and trying to 'do' what is commanded is EXACTLY what the law of Moses was about...and mankind failed abyssmally. The same thing will happen with the new covenant if folks attempt to 'read and do' by their own power. They will have a form of godliness, but deny His power.

W

[Colight]

Then I agree to disagree with your pov.


BroRog, with all due respect, this pov is EXACTLY why the body of Christ is fragmented, divided, and carnal today. The heart includes the mind. Heart (kardia) does not refer to the physical organ but is always used figuratively in Scripture to refer to the seat and center of human life. The heart is the center of the personality, and it controls the intellect, emotions, and will. It is precisely the mind, the emotions, and the will of a person that must be renewed.

Emotions are to be a slave to the mind, not our master.
Many time, those who claim to live by the spirit are in fact slaves to their emotions, they use emotions rather than doctrine as their center of thinking.
We are to change our thinking to that of doctrine.
This is ONLY done thru study and application of the doctrine that is contained in scripture.
There is no other way for this to occur.

We are given a new heart at the new birth, and we are given His Spirit. His Spirit dwells within our own spirits and uses them as His 'base of operations' to change our intellects, our emotions, and our wills to conform to God's.

This is not biblical on how the christian walk is to be done..

We are to work out ( mature) our own salvation.
We are to build on the foundation Christ has laid.
Part of this work is to change our way of thinking to that of biblical doctrine.
.
Growth Only occurs thru application of the doctrine in scripture to our thinking center.
We do not just get the spirit then meditate or sing songs while it changes us.

Also The spirit is not a master, but rather a helper.
The spirit help us to process divine truth we hear or read into our thought processing center.
For us as sinful man are unable to do that thru our natural way of thinking.
Your doctrine gives it a role of a master.

Scripture alone is impotent in this regard, because it was never intended to replace the work of the Spirit. It testifies of the work of the Spirit within the saint.

The word of God is alive and powerful...
That word is scripture.
Do not replace doctrine and teaching and say the spirit will change me.
We are to learn and study on our own desire.

Reading scripture and trying to 'do' what is commanded is EXACTLY what the law of Moses was about...and mankind failed abyssmally. The same thing will happen with the new covenant if folks attempt to 'read and do' by their own power.

They will have a form of godliness, but deny His power.
W

Those who read and try to do some form of commandments, is one who has a trend towards legalism..
Again trying to do what the law of Moses is about is legalism, that has nothing to do with study of the doctrine in scripture ( which legalism avoids).

We are to live by faith...
Faith is not about seeking the power of God, nor should we go down such a path.
For in it Satan as many counterfeits to cause us to stumble.
Faith is about God doing what he stated he would do, even when there is no evidence that supports such a position.
Now if one runs around looking for evidence that God is powerful and will do what he says, is that living by faith?
To me that does not appear to be faith

[BroRog]

BroRog, with all due respect, this pov is EXACTLY why the body of Christ is fragmented, divided, and carnal today.

I wouldn't say that the Body of Christ is fragmented etc. Wouldn't you say that true believers are united and not carnal? I would. At least this was Paul's opinion.

The heart includes the mind.

I don't want to debate the difference between the heart and the mind. I was using the term "heart" as the place where we resolve our will. If you want to call this the mind, the heart or the heart/mind, that's okay with me. The point is this. When Paul talks about his having the mind of Christ, he is arguing with the Corinthians who would accuse Paul of not being an apostle, i.e. sent from Christ himself to speak authoritatively about what Christ taught.

His Spirit dwells within our own spirits and uses them as His 'base of operations' to change our intellects, our emotions, and our wills to conform to God's.

I don't see this in scripture. Do you have a particular passage from where you are getting this idea?

Scripture alone is impotent in this regard, because it was never intended to replace the work of the Spirit. It testifies of the work of the Spirit within the saint. Reading scripture and trying to 'do' what is commanded is EXACTLY what the law of Moses was about...and mankind failed abyssmally. The same thing will happen with the new covenant if folks attempt to 'read and do' by their own power. They will have a form of godliness, but deny His power.

Where do you find this idea that the Holy Spirit gives us power?

[Watchman]

Emotions are to be a slave to the mind, not our master.
Many time, those who claim to live by the spirit are in fact slaves to their emotions, they use emotions rather than doctrine as their center of thinking.
We are to change our thinking to that of doctrine.
This is ONLY done thru study and application of the doctrine that is contained in scripture.
There is no other way for this to occur.

And this carnal pov is why you will remain a baby in Christ. You are relying upon your own power...which is like taking a knife to a nuclear war. You are endangering yourself and others.

We do not just get the spirit then meditate or sing songs while it changes us.

When are you going to stop making stuff up and listen? Nobody has intimated any such thing.

Also The spirit is not a master, but rather a helper.
The spirit help us to process divine truth we hear or read into our thought processing center.
For us as sinful man are unable to do that thru our natural way of thinking.
Your doctrine gives it a role of a master.

It seems to me that the Spirit forbade Paul to go certain places. Perhaps you should study more closely regarding the word, paraclete.

The word of God is alive and powerful...
That word is scripture.
Do not replace doctrine and teaching and say the spirit will change me.
We are to learn and study on our own desire.

Yet again, you confuse the book of the Lord with the Lord of the Book.

Those who read and try to do some form of commandments, is one who has a trend towards legalism..
Again trying to do what the law of Moses is about is legalism, that has nothing to do with study of the doctrine in scripture ( which legalism avoids).
We are to live by faith...
Faith is not about seeking the power of God, nor should we go down such a path.
For in it Satan as many counterfeits to cause us to stumble.
Faith is about God doing what he stated he would do, even when there is no evidence that supports such a position.
Now if one runs around looking for evidence that God is powerful and will do what he says, is that living by faith?
To me that does not appear to be faith

Makin' stuff up seems to be your forte. WHO here is seeking the power of God? Nobody. Please stop with your distracting straw man arguments. They are moot and useless. God has made His power available to those who believe and obey Him. If you don't believe that, then the problem lies with you.


Andy

[Watchman]

BroRog, with all due respect, this pov is EXACTLY why the body of Christ is fragmented, divided, and carnal today.

I wouldn't say that the Body of Christ is fragmented etc. Wouldn't you say that true believers are united and not carnal? I would. At least this was Paul's opinion

We have neither the luxury nor the authority to decide who true believers are. Yes, there are weeds growing with the wheat, as well as babies in Christ who are being taught all manner of watered-down garbage. Everyone who names Christ is either tare or wheat…and we must treat all as brothers and sisters. Further, we must bear each others’ burdens—which includes doctrinal disagreements. Are you going to try and decide which of over 900 denominations (in this country alone) is THE one true church. Only 2 denominations of which I’m aware proclaim such: the RCC and the Churches of Christ.

The heart includes the mind. Heart (kardia) does not refer to the physical organ but is used figuratively in Scripture to refer to the seat and center of human life. The heart is the center of the personality, and it controls the intellect, emotions, and will. It is precisely the mind, the emotions,and the will of a person that must be renewed.

I don't want to debate the difference between the heart and the mind. I was using the term"heart" as the place where we resolve our will. If you want to call this the mind, the heart or the heart/mind, that's okay with me. The point is this. When Paul talks about his having the mind of Christ, he is arguing with the Corinthians who would accuse Paul of not being an apostle, i.e. sent from Christ himself to speak authoritatively about what Christ taught.

Of course, you are welcome to use the term, heart, in that way; however, it is not the lexical definition. Yours is only partial. Yes, Paul was establishing his apostolic authority; however, he also desired to present every saint mature, complete in Christ. He was worried about the Galatians because they needed to have Christ formed in them. We are created to be God’s sons. As such, we are to have the mind of a son—the mind of Christ.

We are given a new heart at the new birth, and we are given His Spirit. His Spirit dwells within our own spirits and uses them as His 'base of operations' to change our intellects, our emotions, and our wills to conform to God's.

I don't see this in scripture. Do you have a particular passage from where you are getting this idea?

Ezekiel 36:26-27 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them.

1Corinthians 6:17 But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him.

1 Peter 1:8b-9 Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls.

When we are saved, we become one Spirit with the Lord, ie our spirit is saved. The remainder of our lives is spent bringing our salvation to completion (working out our salvation)…the saving of our souls. It is God working in us who enables this too ccur. There is no other way He can work within us save our spirits, because He is spirit. Our spirits are the most noble part of us. Our souls are being saved, and our bodies will be saved (glorified with Christ at His return.) All of this stuff should be really basic,early knowledge a baby saint is taught…but this is not the case. Consequently, we have folks trying to work their way to heaven.

Scripture alone is impotent in this regard, because it was never intended to replace the work of the Spirit. It testifies of the work of the Spirit within the saint. Reading scripture and trying to 'do' what is commanded is EXACTLY what the law of Moses was about...and mankind failed abysmally. The same thing will happen with the new covenant if folks attempt to 'read and do' by their own power.They will have a form of godliness, but deny His power.

Where do you find this idea that the Holy Spirit gives us power?

Ephesians 3:14-19 For this reason I bow my knees to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, from whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner man, that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; that you, being rooted and grounded in love, maybe able to comprehend with all the saints what is the width and length and depth and height— to know the love of Christ which passes knowledge; that you may be filled with all the fullness of God.

Philippians 2:12-13 Therefore, my beloved,as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

1 Thessalonians 5:23-24 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul,and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. He who calls you is faithful, who also will do it.

I know this is rather lengthy. It would be extremely helpful to me if you reply to one, or two, parts at a time. These posts are getting way too long for this medium and for the amount of time I have to spend with them. Thanks for your consideration.

blessings,

Watchman

[Colight]

And this carnal pov is why you will remain a baby in Christ. You are relying upon your own power...which is like taking a knife to a nuclear war. You are endangering yourself and others.

I think you are making a judgement call there that should not be made..
You have no idea of my spiritual level nor should you.
That Is between me and God.

Remember this..
Christ ONLY used Doctrine while on the Cross.
God turned his face from him.
The doctrine presented in scripture was able to carry Christ thru the judgement that God cast upon Christ for the sins of ALL mankind.
That mind set is more than able to carry us thru any trials we may have.
Christ tested our spiritual life and found it steadfast.

So if it is good and pure enough for Christ to use and command that we follow in... what qualifies you to state that it is a carnal point of view?

When are you going to stop making stuff up and listen? Nobody has intimated any such thing.

Yet a need was found to point that out.

It seems to me that the Spirit forbade Paul to go certain places. Perhaps you should study more closely regarding the word, paraclete.

Since Paul was given the title apostle to the gentiles, why was he heading to Jerusalem?
Other believers pointed that out to him, so it wasn't some voices he heard in the still of the night, or a urge in his tummy.
It was mature believers pointing out the folly of his desire.

Yet again, you confuse the book of the Lord with the Lord of the Book.

The Author of the bible is??
Is the word of God any lower than God?
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Makin' stuff up seems to be your forte. WHO here is seeking the power of God? Nobody. Please stop with your distracting straw man arguments. They are moot and useless. God has made His power available to those who believe and obey Him. If you don't believe that, then the problem lies with you.
Andy

Is there a list of things a person can do to show how well they 'obey'.

Keep in mind... the congregation of Corinth was not obeying and they had many gifts active in their time.
In fact there was quite a bit o sin going on in that church.

[Watchman]

I think you are making a judgement call there that should not be made..
You have no idea of my spiritual level nor should you.
That Is between me and God.

I know that probably seems like an attack, but it is not. Your words and beliefs point that up. The idea that emotions are to be slaves of the mind, and that we don't need guidance from the Spirit, apart from scripture points that up. It was simply a statement, but perhaps one I could have omitted.

BTW, I was probably talking to zone re: the comment on OT references. More later...gotta go extract some teeth from a dog.

W

[Colight]

The idea that emotions are to be slaves of the mind,

So are we as believer to have a life run by emotion rather than doctrine?

and that we don't need guidance from the Spirit,apart from scripture points that up.

The doctrine of Scripture is the guidance of the spirit.

God gave his word for a reason..we are not to ignore that and go for something else.

More later...gotta go extract some teeth from a dog.

W

The vet for my dog wanted to do that..
they was not bothering her and I didnt feel like shelling out a $1000 price tag.
She eats like a horse and only 1/50th the size, so I didnt figure any thing in her mouth is bothering her.

[Watchman]

So are we as believer to have a life run by emotion rather than doctrine?

You are creating a false dichotomy. Are we going to listen to the Spirit, or to our own minds? Emotional expressions and feelings are simply part of a fully functioning, well-integrated person. Neither our minds, nor our emotions...both of which are part of the soul's faculties...are to be our masters. That is why we have a spirit that is one spirit with the Lord.

The doctrine of Scripture is the guidance of the spirit. God gave his word for a reason..we are not to ignore that and go for something else.

You seem to overlook that everything I've been saying is based upon scripture.

[RollTide21]

The Author of the bible is??
Is the word of God any lower than God?
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

That's Jesus that John is talking about. Where do you get that he is talking about the Bible?

[Watchman]

That's Jesus that John is talking about. Where do you get that he is talking about the Bible?

Absolutely. That has been mentioned to Colight numerous times, but he doggedly keeps repeating the same mantras over and again.

[Colight]

You are creating a false dichotomy. Are we going to listen to the Spirit, or to our own minds? Emotional expressions and feelings are simply part of a fully functioning, well-integrated person. Neither our minds, nor our emotions...both of which are part of the soul's faculties...are to be our masters. That is why we have a spirit that is one spirit with the Lord.

We as Christians are to keep the doctrine of Scripture.
Thru that doctrine we hear the spirit and learn how to live the christian life.

I feel what you call 'the spirit' is actually a excuse to live by emotion.
Why do you allow the weak link of emotions into a otherwise solid life style.
We are to think and breath this doctrine of Christ, which is taught thru scripture.
The mind set you seem to be promoting is one of weakness with out the accountability of scripture.

It can lead to a mind set of .....
"Oh the spirit told me to do this or that, who are you to say that is wrong."
or a mind set
"I dont need scripture I have the spirit"
The doctrine of scripture is solid in its accountability, it is a mirror in which we can judge our spiritual life.

You seem to overlook that everything I've been saying is based upon scripture.

I am testing your doctrine not your scripture.

[Colight]

That's Jesus that John is talking about. Where do you get that he is talking about the Bible?

Yet why didnt the author of John say Christ?
Instead he used the word - logos... as the essential word or doctrine of God.

God gave his doctrine for us to learn and live by, that doctrine is in effect God.
This doctrine has been with God for eternity past..
Christ is the key stone of that doctrine, for Christ is not only doctrine, but he delivered doctrine.

That doctrine of and from Christ is from eternity past.. It has been recorded in the scriptures... the bible is a letter from God on his doctrine,

If a King gives a letter to be followed.. that letter is in effect the King.
If you disregard his letter ..his wrath will soon follow and one would find their head dangling from the city wall for disobedience..

Now here Christians are bouncing along in 2012 saying "we do not need scripture we gotz the spirits.." .. it is in effect disregarding the letter God went to so much effort to provide. And we are starting to see his wrath upon the client nation of the USA, where this attitude seems to be most prevalent,