That which is perfect

[Watchman]

Personally, I think God gave us what we need to know to find and follow Jesus. I believe that we have it and God kept his promise.

I also think we do a great disservice to each other when we pry, parse, separate, dissect and define/redefine all the words in the same way a lawyer plays with law books to get a jury to change an opinion.

If we believe that God knew what He was doing in the past, and that God's hand was in the finding of the Dead Sea Scrolls, and that we have well-translated versions of scriptures to go by; then we may want to accept that we actually have God's Word to guide us. At any rate, we have enough to use in conjuction with the Holy Spirit to guide us on our walk with Jesus.

Our error occurs when we try to change what we are taught in scripture because we don't like it. I know so many who want to throw out verses because they conflict with their desires. People ignore the teachings because the result of the teaching affects their lives and their desired outcomes. We even go to bible book stores to try to find a commentary that agrees with our desired beliefs; and we might even find one! At that point, then we want to claim that everyone else is ignorant and practices heresy.

I wish there was a way to find a church where everything that scripture has taught me was also known at that church - but I don't know which church that would be. In the meantime, I pray, read, and learn what God is teaching me - as a child would accept it - and quit trying to make the words change to meet my desires. For me, the scriptures are "perfect."

And - all of you are my brothers and sisters. I love having such a large family. God bless each of you.

Hi Boo,

You shared your heart in this post. Thank you! Your pov is very understandable. I've encountered a great many folks who do exactly as you said. Verses, even entire letters, are ignored, commentaries are sought, fragments not found in some manuscripts are either inserted or deleted, context is ignored, etc., etc, ad infinitum ad nauseum...all in attempts to justify a certain doctrine or doctrines. That is truly sad.

May I, perhaps, posit another reason (to use your words) why some of us pry, parse, separate, dissect and define/redefine all the words as we study? At least, I'll say why I do it and I'll use the topic of this thread as an example. I was raised in a church that was person-centered. Yes, we studied and learned about God, about Christ, and about the scriptures. On the surface, it appeared to me that all was well. They encouraged "daily Bible reading" almost to the point of shaming those of us who forgot or missed a day. By the time I was ~10, I began to ask questions, because there was a lot I was finding in scripture that was either not being taught or that was different than what I was observing. I asked about all sorts of things, sometimes in classes, sometimes at home. When I pointed out the differences in the behavior of some of the leaders I observed on Sundays & Wednesdays at church and the rest of the week, I was roundly and soundly scolded. When I began to ask about the Holy Ghost (we only used the KJV back then as it was shortly after the dinosaurs disappeared), they couldn't answer the questions. When I persisted, they finally told me not to worry about Him, He doesn't really do anything anymore, and I just needed to concentrate on not doing wrong and staying out of hell. If you let that soak in a bit, it is a staggering thing to tell a child. The upshot of it, when considered, is that our works make us righteous and that God owes us eternity with Him if we do A, B, C, D, and E. Nothing was really about God, it was about what we could get from Him.

By the time I was 15, the hypocrisy was so obvious (to my rather innocent and naive mind), that I decided if this was the only bunch of folks going to heaven, then heaven would be a very lonely place. Couple that with the teaching that heaven was like an eternal hymn-singing and sermon in the sky, and I rebelled. The course my life took over the next 25 years, as a result of my turning my back on God cost me friends, a family, bankruptcy, and twice, nearly cost my life. The really cool thing about this story, though, is this: although I "left" God, He never left me. When I first started hearing Him, I thought I'd lost my mind. But the things He was saying matched what I had, and was, reading in scripture. I began to seek the ideal church you described, and she wasn't to be found. However, I did find a small number of like-minded brothers and sisters who were also seekers. For ~15 years, we studied and prayed together. We met in houses, in empty rooms in church buildings on nights when there were no services, even in an auto parts store. We learned to love each other, to bear with our differences, to trust each other...and to truly seek the Lord, who is Truth.

The upshot of all this is: I parse and study, define and redefine (when examples are present in ancient uses to justify it). I separate and dissect the scriptures in an effort to find those things that have been lost over the centuries. I do this because this is how the Lord teaches me. Prayer is always involved. Many dead ends are reached, so I turn, retrace my study path, and look for the place I missed God's will. You see, the reason we're here is not to dodge hell....it isn't even to get to heaven. The reason we're here is to be transformed into children of God. We are to be in the world as was Jesus. Jesus did/said nothing but what He saw our Father doing. He did this to the point that He could say, If you've seen Me, you've seen the Father. His entire purpose was to glorify our Father. He knew His destination when His work was finished. My goal, in these threads and in my life, is to point others to Christ. Sons look like their fathers. I pray we all look more and more like our Father as we are changed from glory to glory.

Ok, rambling complete. The reason for this thread is that there are rather large implications in the meaning of that which is perfect. I was taught the perfect is the Bible. Further, I was taught that if I obeyed all the commands of the Bible, then I would get to heaven. Couple that teaching with the teaching that the Holy Spirit no longer works directly in saints, and you have the formula for the disaster that used to be my life, and the lives of countless others. I hesitate to guess how many folks have burned out and lost heart because nothing they ever did was enough, or good enough. We cannot please God apart from the aid of the Holy Spirit. We can do works that look good, even works found in scripture, but at the the end of the day (when we do not avail ourselves of God's power) we fall miserably short. That thought--not being good enough to please God (and consequently being damned to hell)--has driven many to drinking, drugs, insanity, and even suicide. I parse and dissect, etc, in an effort to help others avoid the trap the spirit of religion set for me...and the passage of scripture under consideration in this thread is but one example of a place in holy writ where the enemy has spread confusion and disagreement. It isn't that I want to change God's teachings, not at all. But I will tear down and destroy the doctrines and traditions of man with the same passion Jesus had when He cleared the temple of the money-changers. And if I am convicted that something I've learned/taught is erroneous, then I'll tear that down with equal fervor.

blessings,

Andy

[Watchman]

Thank you for this post and your other posts in this thread that are not only informative, but are also written with the heart of a genuine Christian. For the most part, I agree with your comments in this particular post, but it seems to me, as I read, it, that you do not attribute to the Scriptures the full value of them—and perhaps attribute to other writings more value than they actually have. In other posts, however, it seems to me that you attribute to academic works such as the best lexicons, grammars, commentaries, textual apparatuses, etc., far less value than they have. Therefore, I am not at all sure what value you place upon the Scriptures and other sources of information, or the reasoning behind your valuations.

It also seems to me that I have not succeeded in accurately communicating to you the value that I place on the Scriptures and other sources of information. Moreover, it appears to me that your concept of truth is very different from mine, and very different from that of most people with an education comparable to yours or mine.

I do fully agree, however, that the phrase, “that which is perfect,” in 1 Cor. 13:10 cannot reasonably be interpreted as a reference to the Bible. Indeed, I agree for the reasons that you have posted, and for the reason that among Christians, there is very much disagreement over which writings belong in the Bible, and which ones do not. Indeed, when we compare the Bibles used by various groups of Christians, we find the following writings that are not found in the Protestant Canon but which are found in the Bibles of other groups of Christians:

Books and Additions to Esther and Daniel that are in the Roman Catholic, Greek, and Slavonic Bibles

Tobit
Judith
The Additions to the Book of Esther found in the Greek Version
The Wisdom of Solomon
Ecclesiasticus, or the Wisdom of Jesus, Son of Sirach
Baruch
The Letter of Jeremiah (Baruch ch. 6)
The Additions to the Greek Book of Daniel

The Prayer of Azariah and the Song of the Three Jews
Susanna
Bel and the Dragon

1 Maccabees
2 Maccabees

Books in the Greek and Slavonic Bibles; Not in the Roman Catholic Canon

1 Esdras (2 Esdras in the Slavonic Bible, 3 Esdras in Appendix to the Vulgate)
The Prayer of Manasseh
Psalm 151
3 Maccabees

A composite book in the Slavonic Bible and in the Latin Vulgate Appendix

2 Esdras (3 Esdras in the Slavonic Bible, 4 Esdras in the Vulgate Appendix; “Esdras” is the Greek form of “Era”)

(Note: In the Latin Vulgate, Ezra- Nehemiah are 1 and 2 Esdras.)

A book in an Appendix to the Greek Bible

4 Maccabees (This book is included in two important Bibles from the fourth and fifth century.)

In my personal library, I have well over 100 bibles, and only two of them (two different translations) include all of the books and additions to Esther and Daniel that I have listed above.

Excellent point! If the perfect is the Bible, then which Bible? Which one is it? Could it be that the Bible has become an idol? I believe it has in some religious circles. In my understanding, when folks come to the point where they believe they can "read and do" the Bible thereby pleasing God and reserving their place in eternity with Him, then it has become an idol. The reason I say this is that the folks I know who believe this way also deny the present-day workings of the Holy Spirit. Consequently, they are using their own power to attempt to do what God has reserved for His power to do.

I understand your thought that I don't place full value on the scriptures. Perhaps you're right. I know they've become more and more precious to me over time. And I know they are the first place I look, after praying, when I seek answers to questions. I take all that is written about the scriptures with a grain of salt...or a block of salt in some cases. One of the strongest impressions made on my by scripture is that the most learned, most highly educated of Jesus' day, the Pharisees, entirely missed Him and had Him killed. These men, as we know, did not have the indwelling Spirit to guide them. Likewise, we have the example of the saints at Corinth, who did have the Spirit, but were evidently not heeding Him much. Even the apostles had disputes among themselves. I do value the scriptures highly, as well as the works of those who have devoted their lives to the study of scripture, but I know the latter can, and should, be suspect until confirmed to each by the Spirit.

ybiC,

Andy

[Jemand]

Personally, I think God gave us what we need to know to find and follow Jesus. I believe that we have it and God kept his promise.

I also think we do a great disservice to each other when we pry, parse, separate, dissect and define/redefine all the words in the same way a lawyer plays with law books to get a jury to change an opinion.

If we believe that God knew what He was doing in the past, and that God's hand was in the finding of the Dead Sea Scrolls, and that we have well-translated versions of scriptures to go by; then we may want to accept that we actually have God's Word to guide us. At any rate, we have enough to use in conjuction with the Holy Spirit to guide us on our walk with Jesus.

Our error occurs when we try to change what we are taught in scripture because we don't like it. I know so many who want to throw out verses because they conflict with their desires. People ignore the teachings because the result of the teaching affects their lives and their desired outcomes. We even go to bible book stores to try to find a commentary that agrees with our desired beliefs; and we might even find one! At that point, then we want to claim that everyone else is ignorant and practices heresy.

I wish there was a way to find a church where everything that scripture has taught me was also known at that church - but I don't know which church that would be. In the meantime, I pray, read, and learn what God is teaching me - as a child would accept it - and quit trying to make the words change to meet my desires. For me, the scriptures are "perfect."

And - all of you are my brothers and sisters. I love having such a large family. God bless each of you.

In order for any interpretation of any part of the Bible to be the correct interpretation, it MUST be in harmony with all of the pertinent data. Familiarizing oneself with all of the pertinent data involves becoming intimately familiar with the vocabulary and grammar of the Biblical languages, the historical and cultural setting of the individual books of the Bible, the religious beliefs of the people being addressed, the identity of the author and the point in his life and the life of the church in which he wrote, etc. Fortunately, much of this information is summarized in the best commentaries on the individual books of the Bible in their original languages, and for the readers who want further information, these commentaries include very extensive bibliographies.

Unfortunately, too many Christians, including very many pastors and teachers of the Bible, attempt to take a shortcut and avoid decades of careful study and presume that the Holy Spirit will teach them everything that they need to know as they read their favorite translation of the Bible. One of the terrible consequences of this is that we have nearly every imaginable conflicting interpretation of nearly every verse in the Bible—and each pastor and teacher is confident that his bazaar interpretation is correct because it was “given to him by the Holy Spirit.” These same pastors and teachers are very critical of those who do take the time to study and accuse them of relying upon their own wisdom and knowledge rather than the wisdom and knowledge of God.

The Apostle Paul spent much of his life as a Christian correcting the false teaching of others. Simply telling these people that their interpretations are incorrect accomplishes very little. If we tell them that the Holy Spirit taught us something very different, they tell us that we are listening to an unholy spirit. However, if we show them objective facts that prove that their interpretation cannot possibly be correct, a few of them will believe us, and some others will be inspired to study more carefully.

This particular thread is addressing an extremely harmful false teaching that is being taught today in many thousands of churches. It was first taught in around 1900 by pastors of churches in which the gift of tongues was not present. The consequence has been a very bitter and destructive debate over not only the correct interpretation of 1 Cor. 13:10, but over the question of whether the gift of tongues is in operation today. Those people who argue that it is not, argue that people who “speak in tongues” are being deceived by Satan and that the churches in which the “the gift of tongues” is in operation are being carried away by emotional nonsense—or something far worse! Those people who argue that it is in operation today argue that those people who do not have the gift are inferior Christians!

Some years ago, I spent a week on the campus of a very large church in California that had at the time a pastoral staff representing several different denominations. The senior pastor was of the Christian and Missionary Alliance, as was one of the associate pastors. Another associate pastor was of the Assemblies of God, another associate pastor of the United Methodist Church. The life of the associate pastor of the Christian and Missionary Alliance had been badly scared by persistent insults from people who “spoke in tongues” and insisted that he was not “filled with the Holy Ghost,” and therefore inferior to them. And here this poor man was, working hand in hand in the same church with another associate pastor who was of the Assemblies of God!


In your post, you write of “everything that scripture has taught” you. The chances are nearly 100% that if I knew what those things are, I could prove from incontrovertible objective facts that you have misunderstood what the Scriptures actually say. It is an exceedingly dangerous thing to presume that we are tuned in to the voice of the Holy Spirit and that those who disagree with us are not.

[SuperSonicEvnglst]

God's Word says "The Letter is dead, but the Spirit gives it Life". Isn't it correct to say we have to have both the Word, and the Spirit together? Wasn't it the Holy Spirit that moved upon Mary to conceive the "Word", Jesus? Wasn't the "Word" and the Spirit present during creation when it says that the Spirit hovered upon the waters, and the Word created the earth and everything in it? Wasn't it the Word God gave Ezekiel to speak and the "wind" or "Breath" that brought the dead army to life? I believe they go hand in hand. The Word is living and powerful, dividing spirit, soul and body, discerning the intents of the heart. The Holy Spirit thrusts the Sword of the Spirit(Word of God) into the heart of humanity. Christ said the Holy Spirit would come to convict the world of sin, righteousness and judgment, and I believe He does this with the Word of God, and the "inner light" given to every man and woman.

[SuperSonicEvnglst]

Some years ago, I spent a week on the campus of a very large church in California that had at the time a pastoral staff representing several different denominations. The senior pastor was of the Christian and Missionary Alliance, as was one of the associate pastors. Another associate pastor was of the Assemblies of God, another associate pastor of the United Methodist Church. The life of the associate pastor of the Christian and Missionary Alliance had been badly scared by persistent insults from people who “spoke in tongues” and insisted that he was not “filled with the Holy Ghost,” and therefore inferior to them. And here this poor man was, working hand in hand in the same church with another associate pastor who was of the Assemblies of God!

On behalf of one who attends a denomination very similar to the Assembly of God, I sincerely apologize for their actions to this man of God. Please do not lump every person who believes in the gift of tongues together, as this was wrong. The pentecostal movement is full of teachings that tongues is the initial evidence of the Spirit's indwelling, but many are moving away from this teaching.

[Slug1]

Some years ago, I spent a week on the campus of a very large church in California that had at the time a pastoral staff representing several different denominations. The senior pastor was of the Christian and Missionary Alliance, as was one of the associate pastors. Another associate pastor was of the Assemblies of God, another associate pastor of the United Methodist Church. The life of the associate pastor of the Christian and Missionary Alliance had been badly scared by persistent insults from people who “spoke in tongues” and insisted that he was not “filled with the Holy Ghost,” and therefore inferior to them. And here this poor man was, working hand in hand in the same church with another associate pastor who was of the Assemblies of God!

In reading through your whole post (which is a great post), I quoted this part to make this point... it is due to this example today that we understand WHY Paul stressed the "love" element in the context of order and proper exercising of the gift of tongues.

Anyone who has this gift and is SO unloving that they would either "show it off" in front of, or "insult others" who do not have this gift of the Holy Spirit... they really need to be sat down and discipled JUST LIKE the Corinthians were discipled by Paul.

[Watchman]

God's Word says "The Letter is dead, but the Spirit gives it Life".

Actually, the scriptures say, Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves, but our sufficiency is from God, who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

The letter of scripture, which is all the flesh can see, kills; however, the Spirit gives life. The Spirit is the Holy Spirit of life. The letter is ink on paper...the Spirit dwells in us as one with our spirit.

W

[Jemand]

On behalf of one who attends a denomination very similar to the Assembly of God, I sincerely apologize for their actions to this man of God. Please do not lump every person who believes in the gift of tongues together, as this was wrong. The pentecostal movement is full of teachings that tongues is the initial evidence of the Spirit's indwelling, but many are moving away from this teaching.

Thank you for your gracious and thoughtful post. I might add that was saved in an Assembly of God Church some years ago. Here are some highlights of my testimony:

I didn’t get saved until I was 25—because I didn’t need to be saved. I had never smoked a cigarette, I didn’t drink, take drugs, or swear—and I was a virgin because I knew that sex outside of marriage was immoral. I was studying to be a teacher in a university because I loved people and enjoyed helping them learn.

One night when I was almost 25, four teenagers—a 14-year-old boy named Gary, a 15-year-old girl named Jeanie, and two other kids—invited me to come with them to a Christian youth service at an Assembly of God church. I felt very badly for these kids, since they were Christians, and I went to the youth service with them believing that if I could help just one kid to escape from the snarls of Christianity it would be worth my time.

I had never been to a Christian youth service before, and boy was I surprised when I walked in the door! There were about 75 kids packed into the living room of an old house next door to the church—and they didn’t even have the courtesy to provide chairs—we all had to sit right on the floor. I found a spot along a wall where I could at least lean back and get some comfort, and I looked around the room. There was a fat woman about 40 years old sitting in the one chair in the room, and there was this guy about 37 years old standing up talking to some of the kids. I learned that his name was Ken and that he was in charge that night.

After a few minutes, Gary and Jeanie and some of the other teenagers got into a little group with some guitars and tambourines and began to sing a song that went something like this:

Shackled by a heavy burden,
'Neath a load of guilt and shame;
Then the hand of Jesus touched me,
And now I am no longer the same.

He touched me, O’ He touched me! And O, the joy that floods my soul; Something happened, and now I know; He touched me and made me whole.

Since I met this blessed Savior,
Since He cleansed and made me whole;
I will never cease to praise Him,
I'll shout it while eternity rolls.

He touched me, O’ He touched me! And O, the joy that floods my soul; Something happened, and now I know; He touched me and made me whole.


It was a cute song, but I certainly wasn’t underneath a load of guilt and shame because I was not guilty of anything, and I had nothing to be ashamed about.

They sang some more cute songs, and since I loved kids, I enjoyed their performance—but then they quit singing and began giving their testimonies—and that was a bit much—especially when they cried half the way through them. They testified how sin had wrecked their lives and Jesus had saved them and put their lives back together—and I could tell that they were so brainwashed that they really believed the stories that they were telling. As it turned out, I didn’t get a chance to say anything, and my being there was a waste of my time, except that the refreshments were good and I enjoyed being in the company of the kids.

I soon started going to a Baptist coffee house several night a week where during the Bible studies I could occasionally express my views. I was very embarrassed to be in such a place, however, and when they asked me my name, I told them it was none of their business—and they named me “Charlie Brown.”

I continued going to the Christian youth services at the Assembly of God church and began to get acquainted with the kids there. This one 17-year-old girl, Laurie, was nice, but I could tell that she was damaged goods. We got to talking one night and she told me that sometimes she couldn’t come to church because her parents punished her by forbidding her to go to church. I stood out like a freak, but the kids were really nice to me, except that I found out that they were praying that I would get saved.

This went on for a few months—the kids were really nice to me, but some of the adults were beginning to show definite signs of hostility—and then it happened! On a Sunday night, after the service, I found myself being physically escorted out the door by some very weird people who thought that I was a demon from hell—or some such thing! However, the associate pastor, Ken, who was also the leader of the youth group, came to my rescue, brought me back inside, and told the others to pray for me. Before I knew it, the whole church was praying for me, and they continued to pray for me until a few minutes after midnight! Then Ken asked me if I would like to accept Christ as my savior. I had enjoyed all of the attention, and listening to their prayers was a lot of fun, but as for getting saved—nuts to that idea! Jesus was no more real to me that the Easter Bunny or Santa Clause.

A man and his wife with five kids gave me a ride home, and on the way home, one of the kids said to her parents, “We have never stayed at church this late before!” I suddenly realized that the whole church had done something for me that they had never done for anyone else, not even for one of their own. I was very much impressed by this, but I was not at all impressed about Jesus.

Another Sunday night came (I had better things to do on Sunday morning than go to church) and there I was again. And then another Saturday night youth service—and there I was; but after the service, Ken took me into the church and sat me down on the front pew and told me that he was going to read to me something from the Bible. Ken read a few verses from Romans, and I stopped him and told him that I had already read it (which was not true), but he began reading again from Romans and made me a little angry.

Gary, the blond-haired boy who was one of the four teenagers who had invited me to the youth service months before, walked past us, and I pointed to him and told Ken that Gary was one of the reasons why I was not a Christian—because Gary was a hypocrite. Ken replied, “You mean my boy?” and I answered, “No, Gary,” and pointed to him again. Ken told me that Gary was his son. Both Ken and his wife had dark hair, and both of Gary’s brothers had blond hair as he did, and therefore this all came as a very embarrassing surprise to me. To top it off, the senior pastor’s wife overheard my comments about Gary, brought him over to me, and told me to tell Gary what I said about him.

I was trapped by my own mouth, and I told Gary that I said that he was a hypocrite. Gary, just 14 years old, looked at me for a moment, and then began to speak. He told me that he was not a hypocrite, that he got to school every day an hour early so that he could witness about Jesus to the others kids as they got off the buses. Gary went on to tell me that because he did that, he did not have even one single friend in school, but that he loved his schoolmates and wanted them to get saved. And then Gary invited me to go out with him and some of the other kids from the youth group to their Saturday night hamburger joint, Bob’s BigBoy.

I had thought that Gary was a hypocrite because he invited me to the youth service but from that point on had ignored me. And now that I had told his father that he was a hypocrite, he was reaching out to be my friend. The three letter word “sin” had never been a part of my vocabulary because I didn’t believe there was such a thing, and especially not in my case, but there was Gary sitting at the table with me, and I knew that I was a sinner!

This guy sitting across the table from me, Jeanie’s boyfriend, started to witness to me and I became so angry that I picked up my full glass of ice water and through it into his face. That was the first time in my life that I had committed an act of violence—and I was absolutely shocked that I had done such thing—and in a crowded restaurant at that.

During this time in my life, I struck up a conversation with a young Marine in downtown San Diego and learned that his name was Ricky and that he was a backslidden Baptist. We became friends and Ricky really wanted me to get saved—and he witnessed to me and witnessed to me—and one Saturday night he pressed me and pressed me to pray with him and ask Jesus to be my Lord and my Savior. I didn’t want any part of it because I didn’t believe any of it, but Ricky pressed me so hard that I told him that I would go to the church the following night and answer the altar call.

Ricky wasn’t going to church anywhere, and I went to the Assembly of God that I had been going to for a few months now. When the pastor gave the altar call, I realized that I had made a terrible mistake—I had made a very foolish promise—but I had given my word to Ricky, so I crept toward the altar full of embarrassment for doing something so ridiculous.

The senior pastor’s wife came over to me and asked me if I wanted to accept Christ as my Lord and Savior, and I told her the promise that I had made to Ricky. I had less faith in Christ than Abraham had in jet airplanes, but the pastor’s wife said a sinner’s prayer and asked me to repeat the words after her—and I did so—and the people in the church began to shout “Praise God! Thank you, Jesus!” But I was just glad to get that over with.

While I had been “praying,” however, I felt a tender hand on my right shoulder, and when I finished “praying,” I looked up and saw that it was Gary by my side. He told me that he had been praying for me ever since that first day that he had met me, and then he took off like a wild jackrabbit! He came back a few minutes later looking like he had been in a windstorm—his blond hair was all messed up and his shirttail was out—and he handed to me a King James Bible and explained to me that the door to the church office was locked and that he had to climb in through a window to get me the Bible so that I would not go home without one!

I didn’t own a car, and the senior pastor drove me home, a very rare occurrence for him, and on the way, he told me that he was very blessed by my accepting Christ as my savior. I told him that I was “going to try it for a few weeks,” and he dropped me off at my house.

For the next three weeks, I continued going to the Assembly of God church and the Baptist coffee house. Then one night at the coffee house, a young man asked me if I was a Christian. I did not want him to think that I was some kind of a fool, so I told him that I was not a Christian. He took out of his pocket a “Four Spiritual Laws” tract and began to share it with me while I did not say a word; but all of a sudden, he stopped and looked at me and said, “I don’t know why you lied to me about not being a Christian, but I can tell that you are!” I was caught off guard, and I told him about what had happened three weeks earlier. Someone in the room overheard and shouted out, “Charlie Brown got saved!” I was absolutely shocked and more embarrassed than I had thought possible, and I got up and got out of that place!

A few nights later, I was walking down the main drag in downtown San Diego—Broadway—and as I stepped up onto the curb from 4th Avenue and began walking down the sidewalk along Horton Plaza, I noticed a young sailor standing near the northeast corner. I had seen him there before, and sensed that he was propositioning himself to other men, but that was very common on Horton Plaza, so I had not given much thought to it. But that night, something was very different—not about him—but about me! I wanted to just keep on walking, and I even forced myself to do so for several steps, but I felt something inside of me forcing me to turn around. I tried to resist, but I couldn’t, and I walked right up to the young sailor and asked him if he was prostituting himself.

He told me that he was, and he began to cry; and then he took off like a rocket—running down Broadway toward the bay. And there I went—running after him. He ran right through the red traffic lights—dodging the cars, trucks, and buses; and I ran after him, right through the red traffic lights—dodging the traffic. After running several blocks, he finally took cover behind a large pillar on the front of a building. However, I saw where he went, and I ran up behind him and felt my right hand being lifted up onto his shoulder, and I heard Bible verses coming out of my mouth as he leaned up against the pillar with his face in his hands, crying.

After a few minutes, the young man turned around and told me that his name was Bob, that he was a Christian, that he was in the Navy, and that he was married and that his wife was expecting a baby, but that he was getting ready to go on a West Pacific cruise for several months and would be out to sea when the baby was born. He was extremely lonely, confused, and hurting inside—and he told me that he began to run because he was embarrassed, but that as he was running, he was hoping that I would care enough to pursue him and help him.

Up to that point in my life, servicemen had been little more than scum in my sight, but there I was—holding in my arms a serviceman, and loving him more than life itself. And then I knew,

“The hand of Jesus touched me,
and now I am no longer the same.”

(“He Touched Me,” lyrics and music by William J. Gaither.)

[percho]

There is only one Holy Spirit, and He has been teaching men the same truths from the beginning. He does not pour knowledge into our heads—He gives us wisdom to aid us in discerning truth from error and in properly applying what he have learned. Understanding the vocabulary of the Greek New Testament does not come from merely looking up words in a lexicon—understanding the vocabulary of the New Testament comes from an intimate familiarity with the Greek New Testament, the Greek literature that is contemporaneous with it, and the Greek literature from the time of Homer down to the early centuries of the Christian era. Scholarship, therefore, not only has a place—it is vital to an accurate knowledge of the New Testament. I am not such an arrogant fool as to believe that I have a corner on the Holy Spirit that that the early church fathers did not have; nor am I such an arrogant fool as to believe that I have a corner on the Holy Spirit that the Biblical scholars of the past and present did not/do not have. Indeed, as Charles Spurgeon reminded us nearly a century and a half ago, I am indebted to them and what the Holy Spirit has taught them,

“In order to be able to expound the Scriptures, and as an aid to your pulpit studies, you will need to be familiar with the commentators: a glorious army, let me tell you, whose acquaintance will be your delight and profit. Of course, you are not such wiseacres as to think or say that you can expound Scripture without assistance from the works of divines and learned men who have laboured before you in the field of exposition. If you are of that opinion, pray remain so, for you are not worth the trouble of conversion, and like a little coterie who think with you, would resent the attempt as an insult to your infallibility. It seems odd, that certain men who talk so much of what the Holy Spirit reveals to themselves, should think so little of what he has revealed to others. My chat this afternoon is not for those great originals, but for you who are content to learn of holy men, taught of God, and mighty in the Scriptures. It has been the fashion of late years to speak against the use of commentaries. If there were any fear that the expositions of Matthew Henry, Gill, Scott, and others, would be exalted into Christian Targums, we would join the chorus of objectors, but the existence or approach of such a danger we do not suspect. The temptations of our times lie rather in empty pretensions to novelty of sentiment, than in a slavish following of accepted guides. A respectable acquaintance with the opinions of the giants of the past, might have saved many an erratic thinker from wild interpretations and outrageous inferences. Usually, we have found the despisers of commentaries to be men who have no sort of acquaintance with them, in their case, it is the opposite of familiarity which has bred contempt….”

Spurgeon, C. H. Commenting & Commentaries. 1876.

The eschatological language used in 1 Corinthians 13:12 requires an interpretation that is consistent with the language. As I wrote above, we will NOT know fully just as we also have been fully known until the Second Advent. Nor will we see Jesus face to face until the Second Advent. Let us not confuse the Second Advent with a point in the maturity of believers, but let us understand it to be the Second Coming of Christ and its glorious and immediate consequences:

1 Cor. 15:50. Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
51. Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,
52. in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
53. For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. (NASB, 1995)

Only then will the promise of 1 Cor. 13:12 be realized:

12. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known. (NASB, 1995)

i agree. I also think 1C1310-12 fit very nicely thought wise with 1 John 3:1-2

[SuperSonicEvnglst]

Actually, the scriptures say, Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves, but our sufficiency is from God, who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

The letter of scripture, which is all the flesh can see, kills; however, the Spirit gives life. The Spirit is the Holy Spirit of life. The letter is ink on paper...the Spirit dwells in us as one with our spirit.

W

Sorry! Thanks for catching that! Pays to know Scripture and double-check what you read

[Jemand]

Actually, the scriptures say, Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves, but our sufficiency is from God, who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

The letter of scripture, which is all the flesh can see, kills; however, the Spirit gives life. The Spirit is the Holy Spirit of life. The letter is ink on paper...the Spirit dwells in us as one with our spirit.

W

2 Cor. 3:5. Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves, but our sufficiency is from God,
6. who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. (NKJV)

Paul, in this passage and many others, contrasts the old covenant, the covenant of Law, with the new covenant, the covenant of grace. He writes that he and his coworkers are “ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit.” The new covenant he equates here with the ‘Spirit;’ and the old covenant with the ‘letter.’ Therefore, it is not, as you posted, the Scriptures that kill, but the Law that kills. Compare,

1 Cor. 15:55. “O Death, where is your sting? O Hades, where is your victory?”
56. The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law.
57. But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. (NKJV)

[Watchman]

I mostly agree with your assessment, Jemand; however, the letter of the new covenant will kill just as surely as the letter of the old...because the Spirit of the old covenant was also missed.

[Boo]

In your post, you write of “everything that scripture has taught” you. The chances are nearly 100% that if I knew what those things are, I could prove from incontrovertible objective facts that you have misunderstood what the Scriptures actually say. It is an exceedingly dangerous thing to presume that we are tuned in to the voice of the Holy Spirit and that those who disagree with us are not.

It has been very interesting to me how you and Watchman responded. Both of you, because of the wording of my post, made assumptions about HOW I read and understand scriptures. I think both of you feel as if I don't search very deeply or use historical writings and such in order to understand. If I were to try to guess why, I would guess that my statements about parsing, dissecting, etc, made you think something that is not actually true. If you guys thought that I was shooting insults your way, please forgive me.

I have read scriptues that are just plain old "black 'n white" clear to me. However, those scriptures don't fit with the standard Protestant beliefs about something, so in commentaries - whenever someone has the courage to even address that scripture - the only way that they could attempt to defeat the teaching was to get into "possible meaning of the word," genetive case, assumed conjugation error, possible intent of the author in reference to another event, etc, etc. Anything and everything was tried in order to stifle the teaching. That is the type of bible-lawyer stuff to which I refer. I've even had on person tell me how the writer of the scripture was living in a time when ignorance was common, so the author didn't know any better.

While you guys might think I am a country bumpkin who's only method of bible study is a King James by lamplight, it is much more than that. I, too, have the Greek and Hebrew texts to use, the dictionaries, the topical bibles, and multiple translations. However, I also keep in mind that MY understanding CANNOT rest against any other scripture. I am aware that my beliefs must be total in trusting what God is telling me. I must remove any idea of what "I wish God had said."

As a child, I was dragged into a very legalistic church. I really am familiar with the idea. I know better now, but I also know that I am to remain righteous in my behavior and to walk in the spirit. I don't know that we would disagree on doctrine, and just because I have formed by beliefs based on my reading of scripture, I have my doubts that any of you can provide irrefutable proof to me that I am wrong. My learning did not come overnight and those things that are in concrete to me are not easily shaken.

Those things still in clay or on sticky-notes are those things still in work, so feel free to address those.

I really don't much care what the definition of "the perfect" is. It does nothing to affect me in my walk or my view of other Christians. I can read other's opinions of how it can be this or that; all of it an attempt to prove that another denomination is in error. Well, I happen to think that many, if not all, denominations are in error about one thing or another; but it is not my task to point that out to them.

By faith and proof of how well it guides me - God's Word is perfect. (Man's translation of it is not.) I am not, but I am working on it.

[Watchman]

It has been very interesting to me how you and Watchman responded. Both of you, because of the wording of my post, made assumptions about HOW I read and understand scriptures. I think both of you feel as if I don't search very deeply or use historical writings and such in order to understand. If I were to try to guess why, I would guess that my statements about parsing, dissecting, etc, made you think something that is not actually true. If you guys thought that I was shooting insults your way, please forgive me.

I have read scriptues that are just plain old "black 'n white" clear to me. However, those scriptures don't fit with the standard Protestant beliefs about something, so in commentaries - whenever someone has the courage to even address that scripture - the only way that they could attempt to defeat the teaching was to get into "possible meaning of the word," genetive case, assumed conjugation error, possible intent of the author in reference to another event, etc, etc. Anything and everything was tried in order to stifle the teaching. That is the type of bible-lawyer stuff to which I refer. I've even had on person tell me how the writer of the scripture was living in a time when ignorance was common, so the author didn't know any better.

While you guys might think I am a country bumpkin who's only method of bible study is a King James by lamplight, it is much more than that. I, too, have the Greek and Hebrew texts to use, the dictionaries, the topical bibles, and multiple translations. However, I also keep in mind that MY understanding CANNOT rest against any other scripture. I am aware that my beliefs must be total in trusting what God is telling me. I must remove any idea of what "I wish God had said."

As a child, I was dragged into a very legalistic church. I really am familiar with the idea. I know better now, but I also know that I am to remain righteous in my behavior and to walk in the spirit. I don't know that we would disagree on doctrine, and just because I have formed by beliefs based on my reading of scripture, I have my doubts that any of you can provide irrefutable proof to me that I am wrong. My learning did not come overnight and those things that are in concrete to me are not easily shaken.

Those things still in clay or on sticky-notes are those things still in work, so feel free to address those.

I really don't much care what the definition of "the perfect" is. It does nothing to affect me in my walk or my view of other Christians. I can read other's opinions of how it can be this or that; all of it an attempt to prove that another denomination is in error. Well, I happen to think that many, if not all, denominations are in error about one thing or another; but it is not my task to point that out to them.

By faith and proof of how well it guides me - God's Word is perfect. (Man's translation of it is not.) I am not, but I am working on it.

Good morning, Boo,

Wow. I'm not sure what to say. Whatever was in my reply to you that caused you to think I know something about you; whatever I wrote that caused you to think my view of you is that of a country bumpkin; and for whichever of my words led you to think my view is that you study shallowly...please forgive me! None of those were intended, nor were they even remotely in my thoughts. That post (#31) is part of the testimony of Christ working in my life. It was intended to show you why I approach certain things in certain ways. It was an explanation and nothing more.

One thing would be helpful. Would you kindly point me to what I wrote that appears to you that I've assumed things about you? I'm completely clueless, even after rereading the post. In fact, that post had a good bit of "I" trouble! Thanks.

blessings,

Watchman

PS: Even though I don't understand your pov on this, yet, I do appreciate your candor and honesty!

[Jemand]

i agree. I also think 1C1310-12 fit very nicely thought wise with 1 John 3:1-2

1 Cor. 13:10. but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.
11. When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things.
12. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known.

1 John 3:1. See how great a love the Father has bestowed on us, that we would be called children of God; and such we are. For this reason the world does not know us, because it did not know Him.
2. Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is. (NASB, 1995)

Thank you for bringing 1 John 3:1-2 to our attention. I believe that both of these passages are speaking of the same event, that is, the Second Coming of Christ.