That which is perfect

[episkopos]

Not to step over MaryF but here is how I understand a meaning of her comment. If a person reads the Bible withOUT the involvement of the Holy Spirit to illuminate and provide the nourishment as God intended... then a person can read the Bible 24/7 and get nothing from it (dried up). If people say they walk in the "Spirit" and they are not reading the Word of God (too much spirit)... well, they are headed for disaster also.

There is a balance.

Amen! There are many spirits out there..many of whom can put on a good show. Satan himself can appear as an angel of light. We must see that we are as children compared to spirits that are many thousands of years old. So we must discern the spirits through the word....even test them as the word says. God will not leave us to error if we rely on Him to help us ...that is if we fear Him and trust in His words.

[Colight]

1 Cor. 13:10. but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.
11. When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things.
12. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known.

1 John 3:1. See how great a love the Father has bestowed on us, that we would be called children of God; and such we are. For this reason the world does not know us, because it did not know Him.
2. Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is. (NASB, 1995)

Thank you for bringing 1 John 3:1-2 to our attention. I believe that both of these passages are speaking of the same event, that is, the Second Coming of Christ.

Which would be in error.
1 Cor 13:10 is referring to a gender neutral object that is the complete of that which is in part.
Paul then explains how the Partial is matured when the currently at that time scriptures to the Church are completed.

as per verse 11, the growing from a Child to a man is a process. Not a one time event.
Verse 12 is showing the knowledge they have a that time, in comparison to the knowledge we have today.
1 cor 13:10 is not a 2nd coming passage to state it is totally ignores any form of context that it is given in..

1 Cor 13:⁸ Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.
Sets the context..


To say we have to put our spiritual life on hold till Christ returns ignores the doctrine of Maturity and Which can be accomplished with what we currently have today.
We are completely furnished to ALL good works.

2 tim 3
15 and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.


The entire dogma behind the movement of the tongues crowd is to cast doubt on the completeness of scripture. Which I personally think is a wicked position to have.

[Watchman]

Colight,

Since the thread on women speaking is presently closed, I'll use this one for a quick off-topic apology. I was wrong to call you mysogynistic and a rude boor in the other thread. Please forgive me. Although I do believe your opinion of women, in general, is rather low, there was no reason for me to resort to name-calling. I'm sorry.

blessings,

Andy

.................................................. ..........................

[Colight]

Colight,

Since the thread on women speaking is presently closed, I'll use this one for a quick off-topic apology. I was wrong to call you mysogynistic and a rude boor in the other thread. Please forgive me. Although I do believe your opinion of women, in general, is rather low, there was no reason for me to resort to name-calling. I'm sorry.

blessings,

Andy

.................................................. ..........................

I dont care about such things..
Just did not want you to end up getting banned.

So keep your boorish insults with in the rules

[MoreMercy]

Re:

Excuse me once more please Watchman:
My post to you was not to set a common definition between us.

My post was to request you clarify to me what I detect as your effort to teach or introduce:
The now uselessness of bible/word/scripture and new testament epistles and writings for or toward our maturity in Christ.



Father bless those who look to you, but have mercy on all of us to glorify your name.

Watchman:
Forgive me if I now overstep the free access I may have assumed I had toward you here.
But unless you answer my last question to you:

My post was to request you clarify to me what I detect as your effort to teach or introduce:
The now uselessness of bible/word/scripture and new testament epistles and writings for or toward our maturity in Christ.

Is that what you are communicating ?

Because if that is what you were trying to introduce or leave as a foundation for your further communication here, then our interactions from this point on will/must-need-be fundamentally and totally different from this point forward, friend.

I would remained yoked with you, but that is going to be determined by your answer to me, or the lack thereof...
Your choice friend, not mine after this most recent post of mine here to you.



Father bless those who look to you, but have mercy on all of us to glorify your name.

[Watchman]

I dont care about such things..
Just did not want you to end up getting banned.

So keep your boorish insults with in the rules

I'll do my bestest!

Watchman

PS: I only get banned from Church of Christ sites......some of them seem to take exception to my words. Go figure.

[Watchman]

Re:

Watchman:
Forgive me if I now overstep the free access I may have assumed I had toward you here.
But unless you answer my last question to you:

My post was to request you clarify to me what I detect as your effort to teach or introduce:
The now uselessness of bible/word/scripture and new testament epistles and writings for or toward our maturity in Christ.

Is that what you are communicating ?

Ok, I didn't get that from your first post. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

I don't view your question as an overstep at all! In fact, I very glad you've asked it, because I had no idea that was the impression I've given. So please, let me be clear: the scriptures are of God, they cannot be broken, and they are vital to our understanding. Another part of this, though, is that we cannot properly understand them sans the illumination of the Holy Spirit. High intelligence, much study of Hebrew and Greek, of history, of textual criticism, etc., apart from the leading of the Holy Spirit is, in my understanding, worthless. I quote, or paraphrase, scripture in almost all of my posts. Were I to believe it to be useless, not only would I refuse to quote it, I wouldn't even be on this site. The crux of the matter is that spiritual things, such as God's words, require spiritual assistance to be of value. The wisdom of men, in this case the best scholarship, is useless apart from His Spiritual assistance. I do not believe that scripture, itself, equips us, rather, I believe it instructs us on how to be equipped, matured, perfected. Several have taken exception to this, which is their right to do. If this doesn't clarify well enough, please tell me, and I'll have another go at explanation.

blessings,

W

[MoreMercy]

Ok, I didn't get that from your first post. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

I don't view your question as an overstep at all! In fact, I very glad you've asked it, because I had no idea that was the impression I've given. So please, let me be clear: the scriptures are of God, they cannot be broken, and they are vital to our understanding. Another part of this, though, is that we cannot properly understand them sans the illumination of the Holy Spirit. High intelligence, much study of Hebrew and Greek, of history, of textual criticism, etc., apart from the leading of the Holy Spirit is, in my understanding, worthless. I quote, or paraphrase, scripture in almost all of my posts. Were I to believe it to be useless, not only would I refuse to quote it, I wouldn't even be on this site. The crux of the matter is that spiritual things, such as God's words, require spiritual assistance to be of value. The wisdom of men, in this case the best scholarship, is useless apart from His Spiritual assistance. I do not believe that scripture, itself, equips us, rather, I believe it instructs us on how to be equipped, matured, perfected. Several have taken exception to this, which is their right to do. If this doesn't clarify well enough, please tell me, and I'll have another go at explanation.

blessings,

W

Thank you friend, God bless you good servant and friend of my Master.

[Watchman]

Thank you friend, God bless you good servant and friend of my Master.

Right back atcha, bro! Much of the confusion arises from my words re: 2 Timothy 3:16-17...which we will likely have a thread about in the not-too-distant future. I'll be watching my wording more carefully in the future, thanks to you (and also to Jemand!). I certainly don't want anyone to think I'm promoting the uselessness of God's words...on the contrary, they are invaluable.

W

[claybevan]

I dearly love the scriptures, too, Clay. I also believe they can become an idol when handled strictly via the mind and emotions of the soul. Your post reminded me of Jesus' words to the Pharisees. They searched the scripture because they thought eternal life lay therein...and Life was standing before them, telling them that the scriptures testify of HIM!

blessings,

W

I miss loads of stuff loads of the time, so thanks to all the input on this site.
Have to apologise for my user name, bit misleading.
L I H
was going to put L I C doesn't look too good though.
Mari

[Watchman]

I miss loads of stuff loads of the time, so thanks to all the input on this site.
Have to apologise for my user name, bit misleading.
L I H
was going to put L I C doesn't look too good though.
Mari

I'd guess L I C means either Love in Christ...or that you have an affinity for LICorice!

[BroRog]

In 1Corinthians 13:9-10 I used to think Paul was talking about three things: imperfect knowledge, imperfect prophecy, and the perfect. And the question has always been, "what is the perfect?" And it has already been pointed out that many answers are given to what THE perfect is: the scriptures, spiritual maturity, the return of Christ, and etc.

9. For we know in part and we prophesy in part; 10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.

As I think about this passage again, this morning, it suddenly occurred to me that THE perfect isn't another, third thing. Rather, he means to say that when we are first given knowledge it remains incomplete or imperfect in some way. When we receive or give a prophecy, it remains incomplete or imperfect in some way. But sometime later, our knowledge will be perfect knowledge and our prophecy will be perfect prophecy. That is, when the perfect comes it will be perfect knowledge and perfect prophecy.

Paul understands that his readers will not follow him at first, which is why he gives his readers an example or an illustration. What do I mean by "perfect"?

When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things.

Notice in his example that something is being done away with. Something is being eliminated. When he was a child he spoke like a child. Therefore, when he became a man, the thing he eliminated -- the thing that was "done away" was childish speech. He spoke like a child but he speaks like an adult now. Likewise, when he became a man he eliminated -- the thing that was "done away" was his childish thinking. He used to think like a child but now he thinks like a man. What did THAT look like? He thought like a child because he had incomplete knowledge. He didn't have the life experiences of a man. All he had were the reasonings of a person with incomplete information. When he was a child he reasoned as a child, not because his brain or his mind was faulty, but because he had incomplete knowledge. As a man he has access to better information, knowledge that has survived the test of time, and the crucible of experience. A mature man has tested everything to see if what he was told as a child would stand up under closer scrutiny.

So, what does Paul mean by "the perfect" he means perfect knowledge. The kind of knowledge that a man has as compared to the knowledge that a child has. Once we understand his point here, we can rewind his argument back up to the top of the chapter. He reminds the Corinthians about "the more excellent way", which he describes as the presence of love. I think what Paul is saying is this. If a person is speaking in tongues without love, or if a person is giving a prophecy without love, or if the congregation at large has no love for each other, then it is a safe bet that the congregation is still thinking like a child with regard to spiritual gifts. Those who have adult reasonings, adult thinking about spiritual gifts will understand that faith, hope, and love are the most excellent things. A word of knowledge is only partial knowledge if a person doesn't understand the importance of love. A prophecy is "in part" if people do not understand or acknowledge the significance and importance of love.

Often times we find 1Corinthians 13:4-7 printed on greeting cards as well it should since it is always true that Love is patient. At the same time, however, Paul has placed this important definition in the middle of his argument because is talking about what love would look like in the context of the practice of supernatural gifts. Those who prophecy, if they want to travel on the more excellent road, will prophesy with patience. They will be kind prophets. They will not brag or be arrogant about being a prophet. They will not provoke others or cause factions to form in the church. Likewise, when a person speaks in tongues, that person should be patient and kind while using the gift. Such a person should not use the gift to cause factions in the church, brag or get arrogant about having the ability. The person speaking in tongues shouldn't act obscene, or indecently, or impolite, or impatient, or crass, or offensive. The practice of the supernatural should not be an occasion to rejoice in unrighteousness, but an occasion to rejoice with the truth.

[MoreMercy]

In 1Corinthians 13:9-10 I used to think Paul was talking about three things: imperfect knowledge, imperfect prophecy, and the perfect. And the question has always been, "what is the perfect?" And it has already been pointed out that many answers are given to what THE perfect is: the scriptures, spiritual maturity, the return of Christ, and etc.

9. For we know in part and we prophesy in part; 10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.

As I think about this passage again, this morning, it suddenly occurred to me that THE perfect isn't another, third thing. Rather, he means to say that when we are first given knowledge it remains incomplete or imperfect in some way. When we receive or give a prophecy, it remains incomplete or imperfect in some way. But sometime later, our knowledge will be perfect knowledge and our prophecy will be perfect prophecy. That is, when the perfect comes it will be perfect knowledge and perfect prophecy.

Paul understands that his readers will not follow him at first, which is why he gives his readers an example or an illustration. What do I mean by "perfect"?

When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things.

Notice in his example that something is being done away with. Something is being eliminated. When he was a child he spoke like a child. Therefore, when he became a man, the thing he eliminated -- the thing that was "done away" was childish speech. He spoke like a child but he speaks like an adult now. Likewise, when he became a man he eliminated -- the thing that was "done away" was his childish thinking. He used to think like a child but now he thinks like a man. What did THAT look like? He thought like a child because he had incomplete knowledge. He didn't have the life experiences of a man. All he had were the reasonings of a person with incomplete information. When he was a child he reasoned as a child, not because his brain or his mind was faulty, but because he had incomplete knowledge. As a man he has access to better information, knowledge that has survived the test of time, and the crucible of experience. A mature man has tested everything to see if what he was told as a child would stand up under closer scrutiny.

So, what does Paul mean by "the perfect" he means perfect knowledge. The kind of knowledge that a man has as compared to the knowledge that a child has. Once we understand his point here, we can rewind his argument back up to the top of the chapter. He reminds the Corinthians about "the more excellent way", which he describes as the presence of love. I think what Paul is saying is this. If a person is speaking in tongues without love, or if a person is giving a prophecy without love, or if the congregation at large has no love for each other, then it is a safe bet that the congregation is still thinking like a child with regard to spiritual gifts. Those who have adult reasonings, adult thinking about spiritual gifts will understand that faith, hope, and love are the most excellent things. A word of knowledge is only partial knowledge if a person doesn't understand the importance of love. A prophecy is "in part" if people do not understand or acknowledge the significance and importance of love.

Often times we find 1Corinthians 13:4-7 printed on greeting cards as well it should since it is always true that Love is patient. At the same time, however, Paul has placed this important definition in the middle of his argument because is talking about what love would look like in the context of the practice of supernatural gifts. Those who prophecy, if they want to travel on the more excellent road, will prophesy with patience. They will be kind prophets. They will not brag or be arrogant about being a prophet. They will not provoke others or cause factions to form in the church. Likewise, when a person speaks in tongues, that person should be patient and kind while using the gift. Such a person should not use the gift to cause factions in the church, brag or get arrogant about having the ability. The person speaking in tongues shouldn't act obscene, or indecently, or impolite, or impatient, or crass, or offensive. The practice of the supernatural should not be an occasion to rejoice in unrighteousness, but an occasion to rejoice with the truth.

Amen, and Amen !

[Jemand]

So, what does Paul mean by "the perfect" he means perfect knowledge. The kind of knowledge that a man has as compared to the knowledge that a child has.

My precious readers,

The interpretation given above cannot possibly be correct for numerous reasons. The Greek adjective τελειον, translated in 1 Cor. 13:10 as “perfect,” is neuter in gender; therefore, the noun that it describes must also be a neuter gender. The Greek noun translated as knowledge in 1 Cor. 13:2 and 12:8 is feminine in gender. Therefore, Paul cannot possibly be referring to knowledge when he writes of “that which is perfect.” Furthermore, he writes that people who have all knowledge are “nothing” without love. Moreover, at the time that Paul wrote his First Epistle to the Corinthians, he was an adult, no longer a child, but he speaks in verse 10 of perfection as something not yet realized. Indeed, we know that the perfection of which Paul speaks will not be realized until the event of Christ’s Second Coming has been realized and, “in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye,” at the sounding of the last trumpet, “the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.” Only then, will all that is in part be done away; only then will we see Christ face to face. Now we know only in part, but upon that bright and glorious morning, we shall know even as we are known!

Paul was not writing in v. 10 of his 21st birthday when he would become an adult and he would think that he knew it all (Paul was, at the time that he wrote his First Epistle to the Corinthians, an adult in his 50’s; and although he had been gifted by God with a knowledge of Christ and His teachings, he was looking forward to knowing about Christ and other heavenly things, just as he was known by Christ. What a fantastically glorious event that will be! My 21st birthday was not all that spectacular. How about yours?

10. But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.
11. When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12. For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known. (NKJV)

In verse 11, Paul is simply giving us an analogy to illustrate the increase in knowledge that we will receive upon the event of Christ’s Second Coming, the Second Advent— when that which is perfect has come!

[Watchman]

1 Corinthians 15:20-25 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. Then comes the end (τέλος), when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet.

Jemand, do you see a relationship between τέλειος, in chapter 13, and its root, τέλος, in chapter 15?