That which is perfect

[BroRog]

[COLOR="#000080"] It is true that the adjective "teleion" (perfect) is functioning as a substantive in 1 Cor. 13:10 where it implies a noun that is not specified but is to be understood from the context.

You don't understand. When an adjective functions as a substantive, it IS the noun. It isn't implying another noun. It acts as the subject of the sentence grammatically.

In Greek sentences in which we find adjectives with an independent or substantive use, those adjectives still have gender, and the gender of the substantive adjective "teleion" is neuter.

Yes, but as I say, the word case is nominative, which means that the word need not be in concord with any other word except the article. Paul is not expecting his readers to figure out what is "the perfect" from grammar construction. Rather, the context determines the meaning of "the perfect."

Grammatically, it could be a reference to the canonization of the New Testament.

Grammatically, it could refer to anything in the world. Grammar is no help in our search for what Paul meant by "the perfect." The context is a better place to search. Since the canonization of the scriptures is NOT in the context, then it is highly unlikely that this is what Paul meant. And neither does it refer to the Second Advent, which is also not mentioned in the context.

[Colight]

I think this is what you're hunting, Colight.

Even at the most basic level it appears to be a flawed conclusion.

1Cor 13;10 uses ...teleios = means brought to a end in the form of being complete thru a process of maturing. And in context it is a direct completion or maturity aka adulthood of that which is partial aka Knowledge and prophecy.

1Co 15:24 uses ...telos = End.. termination,, final.. the end at which a thing ceases to be..

There is not relation between these two passages to reach such a conclusion.
Plus one would have to really ignore context to even try to link these two.

[Watchman]

You don't understand. When an adjective functions as a substantive, it IS the noun. It isn't implying another noun. It acts as the subject of the sentence grammatically.

Yes, but as I say, the word case is nominative, which means that the word need not be in concord with any other word except the article. Paul is not expecting his readers to figure out what is "the perfect" from grammar construction. Rather, the context determines the meaning of "the perfect."

Grammatically, it could refer to anything in the world. Grammar is no help in our search for what Paul meant by "the perfect." The context is a better place to search. Since the canonization of the scriptures is NOT in the context, then it is highly unlikely that this is what Paul meant. And neither does it refer to the Second Advent, which is also not mentioned in the context.

I am not privy to all the grammatic nuances; however, it seems to me that the completed canon is the very weakest of all possible interpretations. It seems to me that this interpretation isn't an interpretation at all. It is an eisegetic attempt to justify a preconceived position...one that quenches the work of the Holy Spirit.

W

[Colight]

I am not privy to all the grammatic nuances; however, it seems to me that the completed canon is the very weakest of all possible interpretations. It seems to me that this interpretation isn't an interpretation at all. It is an eisegetic attempt to justify a preconceived position...one that quenches the work of the Holy Spirit.

W

Hate to say this..

But you are not offering much for us to work with..

You you can offer some doctrine or some teaching that better enforces your point.. then maybe I could see it.

Instead in the process of this research I came across a new point that more entrenched my previous stand.

That being the AUTHORITY of scripture would be in conflict with the AUTHORITY of the Gifts, this is yet another reason why some of the gifts have ceased.
To me that is a huge positive to the position I currently have.

I am not getting such revelations out of your position.
Instead I am getting negative Vibes out of you.

Things like...
1) very weakest of all possible interpretations
2) eisegetic attempt to justify a preconceived position
3) quenches the work of the Holy Spirit.

Those sort of arguments are not really of the sort that will encourage me to give your position creditability.
Make step back for a bit and reformulate your dogma.

Maybe lay out point by point why you see it the way you do..

[BroRog]

That being the AUTHORITY of scripture would be in conflict with the AUTHORITY of the Gifts, this is yet another reason why some of the gifts have ceased.
To me that is a huge positive to the position I currently have.

I would say that this is a good way to test the spirits to see if they speak for God or not. That is, God himself asks us to test a prophet to see if that prophet contradicts prior revelation. If such a prophet leads the congregation into idolatry or away from God, then that prophet is not speaking by the Holy Spirit. The same could be said about the other gifts. We are to test what we hear and see against the scriptures and use the scriptures as our guide. But given the fact that the canon is closed, it doesn't follow that the gifts have ceased.

Can you think of a reason why Paul would spend so much time helping the Corinthians, Ephesians, and Romans put the spiritual gifts into perspective if he thought the gifts would cease after one generation had passed?

[Watchman]

I would say that this is a good way to test the spirits to see if they speak for God or not. That is, God himself asks us to test a prophet to see if that prophet contradicts prior revelation. If such a prophet leads the congregation into idolatry or away from God, then that prophet is not speaking by the Holy Spirit. The same could be said about the other gifts. We are to test what we hear and see against the scriptures and use the scriptures as our guide. But given the fact that the canon is closed, it doesn't follow that the gifts have ceased.

Can you think of a reason why Paul would spend so much time helping the Corinthians, Ephesians, and Romans put the spiritual gifts into perspective if he thought the gifts would cease after one generation had passed?

That is precisely the point, BroRog...some have prejudged the prophets to be fakes no matter what is prophesied. They have judged themselves by their own judgments. When prophets glorify Christ, and our Father; when prophets, via the empowerment of the Holy Spirit, redirect the focus of folks back to Christ-likeness; when prophets minister Christ...that is all debunked by the understanding of those who start from a preconceived pov and wrest scripture to support them. The Holy Spirit has not assimilated this understanding...but the "wisdom" of man HAS!

W

[percho]

Question???

But when that which is perfect is come,-----Is that in bold speaking of the same moment in bold here-----For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

Does that language not sound very, very similar to this? Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

[Colight]

I would say that this is a good way to test the spirits to see if they speak for God or not. That is, God himself asks us to test a prophet to see if that prophet contradicts prior revelation. If such a prophet leads the congregation into idolatry or away from God, then that prophet is not speaking by the Holy Spirit. The same could be said about the other gifts. We are to test what we hear and see against the scriptures and use the scriptures as our guide. But given the fact that the canon is closed, it doesn't follow that the gifts have ceased.

Can you think of a reason why Paul would spend so much time helping the Corinthians, Ephesians, and Romans put the spiritual gifts into perspective if he thought the gifts would cease after one generation had passed?

We still have gifts with us today..
That being the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, and helps, and administrations.

Also Paul wanted them to grow to maturity and he know that his methods was being recorded for future churches to follow.
Many of the gifts was legit in his day so he wanted them to get their use correct and in that day with out the completion of the scripture of the doctrines for the church.
Those gifts was the only way they could learn doctrine. They could not just open a KJV Bible and read.. much was a mystery.

Now we have so much more than they did, we no longer need those gifts as they did.
So many of the gifts have long ago ended.

[Colight]

Question???

But when that which is perfect is come,-----Is that in bold speaking of the same moment in bold here-----For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

Does that language not sound very, very similar to this? Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

not really.

For in the Corinthian passage we are looking out our self
1 cor 13
12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face.

which matches the James passage about looking into the word

James 1
23 Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says is like someone who looks at his face in a mirror
24 and, after looking at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like.
25 But whoever looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues in it—not forgetting what they have heard, but doing it—they will be blessed in what they do.

The mirror is the word, and when the word was matured it would be as clear as face to face ( remember the mirrors in those days was polished metal..not the fine glass ones we have today )

[percho]

not really.

For in the Corinthian passage we are looking out our self
1 cor 13
12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face.

which matches the James passage about looking into the word

James 1
23 Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says is like someone who looks at his face in a mirror
24 and, after looking at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like.
25 But whoever looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues in it—not forgetting what they have heard, but doing it—they will be blessed in what they do.

The mirror is the word, and when the word was matured it would be as clear as face to face ( remember the mirrors in those days was polished metal..not the fine glass ones we have today )

Does "but then," refer to, "perfect is come"?

When he Jesus does appear we will be face to face with him and will then see what we are, for we will be like him rather than what we saw in the non glass mirror.

We will not only see what perfect looks like we ourselves will also be perfect.

[MaryFreeman]

Question???

But when that which is perfect is come,-----Is that in bold speaking of the same moment in bold here-----For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

Does that language not sound very, very similar to this? Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Hence the very biblical concept of Christ Himself being "the Perfect"....

Because He is the only One who is Perfect.... Not even the scriptures are.... If they were.... There wouldn't be so many different manuscripts....

**Flinches in expectation**

I know.... Not a very popular opinion.... How dare I question the perfection of the scriptures????

[Colight]

Does "but then," refer to, "perfect is come"?

When he Jesus does appear we will be face to face with him and will then see what we are, for we will be like him rather than what we saw in the non glass mirror.

We will not only see what perfect looks like we ourselves will also be perfect.

Being that the tense and gender of the word perfect is not a reference to Christ, that is not what Paul or James are covering here.

Also Paul sets the context with that which is partial. Being Knowledge and Prophecy. So the perfect is the maturity of Knowledge and prophecy for the Church.
This is a reference to the scriptures directed at the church.
Which is what the Gifts of Knowledge and Prophecy was for.. to reveal the mystery doctrine of the church. A doctrine that was contained no where else in scripture.

[Colight]

Hence the very biblical concept of Christ Himself being "the Perfect"....

Because He is the only One who is Perfect.... Not even the scriptures are.... If they were.... There wouldn't be so many different manuscripts....

**Flinches in expectation**

I know.... Not a very popular opinion.... How dare I question the perfection of the scriptures????

With your position..

Wouldn't only the scripture that allowed for spiritual gifts be perfect?
The rest.. I am sure you would agree ..are faulty.. but those for spiritual gifts are quite solid.

[Boo]

I can see, looking through the New Testament scriptures, that the miracles of healing were instantaneous. Today, they are not. Actually, it doesn't take long with a search on the internet to see that some who have claimed to have performed them are being prosecuted or investigated for fraud. Some have been convicted. That miracle does not happen today - just as scriptures said it would end.

I have spoken to a few people who have actually experienced the Acts 2 version of tongues in foreign missions and one case here in the U.S. None of those who testified of them attempt to spout gibberish in church. That type edifies nobody except the speaker - and edifying ourselves is not what God is all about. That gift my be given when needed to preach God's word to others, but there is no sign to me that the "prayer language" actually exists. Paul didn't think much of it either.

If God wants me to believe differently, He knows how to teach me. From what I see in scriptures, those gifts used as a method of providing bona fides to His apostles is over. Now we have the written Word. Isn't that enough?

[John146]

Question???

But when that which is perfect is come,-----Is that in bold speaking of the same moment in bold here-----For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

Does that language not sound very, very similar to this? Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Yes, I think there is definitely a connection between those two passages. We do not yet know even as we are known and that passage indicates the perfect will come at the time that we know even as we are known which will not occur until the return of Christ.