That which is perfect

[Watchman]

This is a spin-off from the thread re: Tongues and is an effort to avoid hijacking that thread.

1 Corinthians 13: Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal. And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned,[a] but have not love, it profits me nothing.

Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away. When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known. And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

The phrase, that which is perfect, has been construed to mean many things.
Seven Greek words (and their derivatives) are translated perfect in the NT. They are:

akribos – most exactly, diligently, circumspectly
artios – fresh, implying complete
epiteleo – to fulfill further, accomplish, do, finish, perform
katartizo – to fit, frame, mend, make perfect, prepare, restore
holokleria – physical wholeness or soundness
pleroo – to be complete, end, expire, fill up, permeate, control
teleios – to complete as in labor, growth, mental & moral character

The last one, teleios, is the word used in the 1 Corinthians passage above. It’s meaning has been the subject of many debates and questions. It has been construed to mean: Jesus Himself, Jesus’ second coming, the time of the end, the completed canon of the Bible, and spiritual maturity.

Spiritual maturity fits both the context and the rules of grammar. It also follows with one of Paul’s pet themes: to present everyone mature in Christ. In fact, that is the major theme of his first letter to the saints in Corinth. He was writing to them because their spiritual immaturity (carnality) was causing division among them. After his salutation, the first thing Paul wrote was an exhortation to unity (1:10 and following.) In 2:6 he wrote: Yet among the mature (Greek teleios) we do impart wisdom, although it is not a wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are doomed to pass away. He proceeded in chapter 3 to tell them they were immature, so he had to teach them ‘milk.’ He even told them they were still not ready to receive spiritual things from God. Consequently, he had to write about several matters that would have been apparent to them had they been mature. He wrote about Jesus Christ (and not men) being the foundation of the church, discipline in the church, legal matters between saints, abuses of Christian freedoms, marriage, food that had been offered to idols, his own life as an example of self-denial as one to be imitated (just as he imitated Christ), God’s ordained structure (compared to a human body) in the church, and about the manifestations of the Spirit that were given to build up the church. After he’d covered just about every aspect of their lives with regard to maturity and God’s will—and these are things they’d have known if they weren’t such babies—Paul then proceeded to show them how the key to all he’d previously written was love. Without love, they’d never become mature. Teleios appears again in 13:10, But when that which is perfect (Greek teleios) is come, then that which is in part will be done away. Teleios is seen one last time in this letter in 14:20 (being translated, mature.) “Brothers, do not be children in your thinking. Be infants in evil, but in your thinking be mature.”

1 Corinthians 13 speaks of our sanctification; of love having completed her perfect work in us. Paul expounded eloquently on the nature and virtues of the love that comes to us from God via His Spirit. We cannot produce it. When love is expressed through us as fruit produced by the Spirit, then we will no longer be walking in dead works…we will be walking by the Spirit in love. We will:

*bear with each other’s weaknesses and be kind to each other,
*be free of envy for what another is, has, or does,
*be content with a lack of attention,
*be humble in agreeing with God about everything
*behave politely, courteously, and meekly,
*seek the will of God and the good of others
*maintain a quietness of soul that refuses unrighteous anger and arguments,
*think only of good things,
*find and express joy only in Truth,
*thankfully bear whatever the Lord brings our way,
*live by the good things upon which we think,
*have a confident expectation of good in all things,
*be able to endure anything the Lord allows in our lives,
*never fail to walk in the good works God prepared in advance for us,
*be perfect, mature, and complete in Christ…completely sanctified unto Him.

When we are completely submitted and obedient to the Spirit of the Lord within us, then Christ will shine through and we will see Truth face to face. No dross, imperfection, or part of our old dead self will stand between us to blur His image. We will be the walking manifestation of Christ on the earth. Until then, all we have is partial. When there is no corruption standing between us and Christ, then that which is perfect will have truly come and Christ will be fully formed in us.

blessings,

Watchman

[Watchman]

post 118 from Tongues thread:

Watchman

The Fact is.... we have the BIBLE, they didn't.
All the prophecy and knowledge that we need to know is complete in the Bible.
What do we need to know that is not contained in it?
We have everything needed to reach the spiritual maturity.

Are you proposing that it is scripture that matures us? This chapter is about the work of love in the life of saints...and love is fruit produced by the Holy Spirit. The scriptures do not produce love in anyone. What do we need to know NOT contained in scripture? Seriously!? The main thing is we need the momentary guidance of the Holy Spirit. Without that, we are operating out of our flesh...which is the path of death. The Bible testifies of Christ and points us to Him. He gives us His Spirit to guide us.

It is the complete. As Paul stated...
1 cor 13

9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part;
10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.
11 When I was a child, I used to speak like a child(Tongues), think like a child( gift of prophesy) , reason like a child( gift of knowledge); when I became a man, I did away with childish things.

With the Bible here the life of acting like a Child has come to a end.
Therefore tongues , gift of prophesy, gift of knowledge.. are all compared to being Childish, Immature.

Even Paul stated the Corinth Congregation was babies, when it came to spiritual matters.. ( 1 cor 3:1)
And they had legit tongues as a gift.
Why would you want to act like a bunch of babies?
( this is the bible speaking here, Paul used the word child.. not me.. if it offends take it up with Paul.)
Why would you want to strive to stay in Child hood, when we have access to full maturity?

Think it is time to grow up ( In a spiritual sense)?

The Bible, as stated, matures no one, completes no one, produces love in no one. Only the Spirit does these things. Yes, the Corinthian saints were babies because of their loveless behavior...not because of their giftings. They were misusing and glorying in their gifts. Nobody here wants to remain as a child...but the Bible is NOT the method through which God grows us up into the Head. He uses love for that. It is both time to grow up and time to hear the Lord's voice sans preconceived, eisegetic notions.

blessings,

Watchman

[Jemand]

1 Cor. 13:9. For we know in part and we prophesy in part;
10. but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.
11. When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things.
12. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known. (NASB, 1995)

In order for any interpretation of any passage in the Bible to be the correct interpretation, the interpretation must be in harmony with all of the pertinent data. The interpretation given in the opening post is NOT in harmony with the eschatological language in verse 12, which speaks of the same event spoken of in verse 10. We will NOT know fully just as we also have been fully known until the Second Advent. Nor will we see Jesus face to face until the Second Advent. Therefore, the interpretation given in the opening post cannot possibly be correct. The only interpretation that can possibly be correct is the interpretation that in both verse 10 and verse 12 the Second Advent is spoken of, and this interpretation is in harmony with all of the elements of the passage and is in harmony with Paul’s eschatology.

Gordon D. Fee writes in his commentary on the First Epistle to the Corinthians in “The New International Commentary of the New Testament Series,”

“It is not so much that the end itself is “the perfect,” language that does not make tolerably good sense; rather, it is what happens at the End, when the goal has been reached. At the coming of Christ the final purpose of God’s saving work in Christ will have been reached; at that point those gifts now necessary for the building up of the church in the present age will disappear, because “the complete” will have come. To cite Barth’s marvelous imagery, “Because the sun rises all lights are extinguished.”*

*This quote is from The Resurrection of the Dead (English Translation, London, 1933), p. 86.

However, when words have more than one meaning in the donor language, the most correct translation for the recipient language is determined by the context. The context of 1 Cor. 13:10 strongly suggests that το τελειον be translated using the word perfect rather than the word complete (or mature as in the opening post) because the context is that of a divine event, and the word perfect is preferable over complete in speaking of the divine and things pertaining to the divine). It cannot be a reference to the person of Jesus Christ because the gender is neuter rather than masculine; it is a reference to an event, the Second Coming of Christ, and has been so interpreted by the very large majority of translators and commentators throughout the history of the church.

Latin Vulgate
1 Corinthians 13:10 cum autem venerit quod perfectum est evacuabitur quod ex parte est

Wycliffe Bible
1 Corinthians 13:10 but whanne that schal come that is parfit, that thing that is of parti schal be auoidid.

Tyndale New Testament
1 Corinthians 13:10 But when yt which is parfect is come then yt which is vnparfet shall be done awaye.

Bishop’s Bible
1 Corinthians 13:10 But when that which is perfect, is come, then that which is vnperfect shalbe done away.

Geneva Bible
1 Corinthians 13:10 But when that which is perfect, is come, then that which is in part, shalbe abolished.

Douay-Rheims Bible
1 Corinthians 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, that which is in part shall be done away.

King James Version
1 Corinthians 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

American Standard Version
1 Corinthians 13:10 but when that which is perfect is come, that which is in part shall be done away.

Revised Standard Version
1 Corinthians 13:10 but when the perfect comes, the imperfect will pass away.

English Standard Version
1 Corinthians 13:10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away.

New International Version, 1973, 1978 and 1984 (but see the 2011 edition)
1 Corinthians 13:10 but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears.

New King James Version
1 Corinthians 13:10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.

New American Standard Bible, 1995 Update
1 Corinthians 13:10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.

New Revised Standard Version
1 Corinthians 13:10 but when the complete comes, the partial will come to an end.

New Jerusalem Bible
1 Corinthians 13:10 but once perfection comes, all imperfect things will be done away with.

New American Bible
1 Corinthians 13:10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away.

Young's Bible
1 Corinthians 13:10 and when that which is perfect may come, then that which [is] in part shall become useless.

Darby's Bible
1 Corinthians 13:10 but when that which is perfect has come, that which is in part shall be done away.

Weymouth's New Testament
1 Corinthians 13:10 but when the perfect state of things is come, all that is imperfect will be brought to an end.

Webster's Bible
1 Corinthians 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

William's NewTestament
1 Corinthians 13:10 But when perfection comes, what is imperfect will be set aside.

Montgomery New Testament
1 Corinthians 13:10 but when the perfect is come, then the imperfect will be done away.

[MaryFreeman]

post 118 from Tongues thread:


Are you proposing that it is scripture that matures us? This chapter is about the work of love in the life of saints...and love is fruit produced by the Holy Spirit. The scriptures do not produce love in anyone. What do we need to know NOT contained in scripture? Seriously!? The main thing is we need the momentary guidance of the Holy Spirit. Without that, we are operating out of our flesh...which is the path of death. The Bible testifies of Christ and points us to Him. He gives us His Spirit to guide us.

Hi Watchman!

Although I feel I agree with most of your sentiments as found in the op.... I feel I must disagree with that which is bolded in the quote.... And here is why:

2Ti 4:2 LITV preach the Word, be urgent in season, out of season, convict, warn, encourage with all long-suffering and teaching.

Heb 4:12 LITV For the Word of God is living, and powerfully working, and sharper than every two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of both soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge of the thoughts and intentions of the heart;

These two scriptures alone show that the Word of God changes and perfects.... The One using it to do so is of course the Holy Spirit.... Because remember that we can't even desire to come to the Lord unless the Holy Spirit moves us.... So He is the driving force behind it all.... It is by the washing of the water of the word that we are sanctified and perfected (matured)....

Eph 5:26-27 LITV that He might sanctify it, cleansing it by the washing of the water in the Word, (27) that He might present it to Himself as the glorious assembly, not having spot or wrinkle, or any such things, but that it be holy and without blemish.

But this last scripture is one I really want you to see.... It makes it quite obvious the Word of God does a whole lot that I see you saying it doesn't do....

2Ti 3:16-17 LITV All Scripture is God-breathed and profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, (17) so that the man of God may be perfected, being fully furnished for every good work.

The Bible, as stated, matures no one, completes no one, produces love in no one. Only the Spirit does these things. Yes, the Corinthian saints were babies because of their loveless behavior...not because of their giftings. They were misusing and glorying in their gifts. Nobody here wants to remain as a child...but the Bible is NOT the method through which God grows us up into the Head. He uses love for that. It is both time to grow up and time to hear the Lord's voice sans preconceived, eisegetic notions.

blessings,

Watchman

I am having a hard time understanding your points here.... I don't see how any maturing and completing.... Or any fruit bearing for that matter.... Can occur without the Word of God....

I am reminded of something my pastor says.... Too much Spirit and you will blow up.... Too much word and you will dry up....

The Spirit of God uses the Word of God to teach and cleanse and perfect us.... It is that simple.... He does not use Love for that.... Love is WHY He uses THE WORD to do that.... He loves us and wants us to love each other.... Yes.... But He does not use love to perfect us.... As shown in Ephesians.... He uses "The washing of the water in THE WORD"....

[Watchman]

Hi Jemand,

I don't completely disagree with your post. (shocked? ) I will say, though, that I don't really consider the very large majority of translators and commentators throughout the history of the church to carry much weight. Scholarship has its place, and it is a secondary place.

Anyway, I did not state the timing of that which is perfect...just the substance of it. I don't know when the completion, the maturation, or the end-point (all of which are viable translations of teleios) will be, but it will not be until the Bride has made herself spotless. It will not be until we, as the church, have fully matured and grown into the full stature of Christ Himself. However, whenever that is, spiritual maturity will also be complete in the saints. So you see, what I wrote is actually consistent with your post. There is a chance I've read to quickly, as I'm between appointments. If so, then please advise and I'll revisit your words this evening when I've more time.

blessings,

W

[Watchman]

Hi Mary,

I *think* I've met you on Facebook, or on another forum...I *think*!
I'll reply to your post this evening. For some reason I'm expected to work while at work...go figure!

blessings,

Watchman aka Andy

[Watchman]

Are you proposing that it is scripture that matures us? This chapter is about the work of love in the life of saints...and love is fruit produced by the Holy Spirit. The scriptures do not produce love in anyone. What do we need to know NOT contained in scripture? Seriously!? The main thing is we need the momentary guidance of the Holy Spirit. Without that, we are operating out of our flesh...which is the path of death. The Bible testifies of Christ and points us to Him. He gives us His Spirit to guide us.

The Bible, as stated, matures no one, completes no one, produces love in no one. Only the Spirit does these things. Yes, the Corinthian saints were babies because of their loveless behavior...not because of their giftings. They were misusing and glorying in their gifts. Nobody here wants to remain as a child...but the Bible is NOT the method through which God grows us up into the Head. He uses love for that. It is both time to grow up and time to hear the Lord's voice sans preconceived, eisegetic notions.

Although I feel I agree with most of your sentiments as found in the op.... I feel I must disagree with that which is bolded in the quote.... And here is why:

2Ti 4:2 LITV preach the Word, be urgent in season, out of season, convict, warn, encourage with all long-suffering and teaching.

Heb 4:12 LITV For the Word of God is living, and powerfully working, and sharper than every two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of both soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge of the thoughts and intentions of the heart;

These two scriptures alone show that the Word of God changes and perfects.... The One using it to do so is of course the Holy Spirit.... Because remember that we can't even desire to come to the Lord unless the Holy Spirit moves us.... So He is the driving force behind it all.... It is by the washing of the water of the word that we are sanctified and perfected (matured)....

Eph 5:26-27 LITV that He might sanctify it, cleansing it by the washing of the water in the Word, (27) that He might present it to Himself as the glorious assembly, not having spot or wrinkle, or any such things, but that it be holy and without blemish.

Hi again, Mary,

I had a couple of appointment cancellations, so was able to reply to you sooner than I thought. I agree with every scripture you've posted. I'm wondering, though, why many folks these days refer to the scriptures as "the Word of God" when the scriptures refer to themselves as the scriptures, what has been written, etc, and refer to Jesus as the Word of God. Paul preached Christ, the word of the Lord, the gospel of Christ, etc. All of these refer to the same Person: the Lord Jesus Christ. He is the Word of God. The scriptures were, indeed, breathed out by God, and they testify of Jesus the Christ...but they are not what is in view in the passages you posted above. Jesus is the Word and He is in view. The scriptures are simply signposts pointing us to Him.

But this last scripture is one I really want you to see.... It makes it quite obvious the Word of God does a whole lot that I see you saying it doesn't do....

2Ti 3:16-17 LITV All Scripture is God-breathed and profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, (17) so that the man of God may be perfected, being fully furnished for every good work.

I am having a hard time understanding your points here.... I don't see how any maturing and completing.... Or any fruit bearing for that matter.... Can occur without the Word of God....

I am reminded of something my pastor says.... Too much Spirit and you will blow up.... Too much word and you will dry up....

The Spirit of God uses the Word of God to teach and cleanse and perfect us.... It is that simple.... He does not use Love for that.... Love is WHY He uses THE WORD to do that.... He loves us and wants us to love each other.... Yes.... But He does not use love to perfect us.... As shown in Ephesians.... He uses "The washing of the water in THE WORD"....

I think you've got a wise pastor. He and I would likely disagree re: my previous statements above, though. The scriptures are invaluable, but apart from the leading, guiding, teaching, and enlightening from the Holy Spirit, the scriptures are simply ink on paper. Love is fruit produced in us by the Holy Spirit, and God IS love. Consequently, we cannot produce love apart from Christ's Spirit, because apart from Christ's Spirit, we are not Christ's and are able to do nothing.

The Spirit does, as one of His methods, use scripture give teachings, to instruct us in righteousness (and Christ IS our righteousness), to correct us, etc...but that does not mean the scriptures do this. They show us how this is done, but the Spirit accomplishes these things. He is not, though, limited to working through the written scriptures. The maturing and completing comes via the Spirit when He takes from what belongs to Christ and makes it known to us. Since everything has been given to Christ, the scriptures are but one of those things from which the Spirit has to work. The scriptures tell us how to be equipped, completed, matured...but the Spirit does the actual accomplishment of these in us. Hope this makes sense. If not, then I'll have another go at explanation.

blessings,

W

[Jemand]

Hi Jemand,

I don't completely disagree with your post. (shocked? ) I will say, though, that I don't really consider the very large majority of translators and commentators throughout the history of the church to carry much weight. Scholarship has its place, and it is a secondary place.

There is only one Holy Spirit, and He has been teaching men the same truths from the beginning. He does not pour knowledge into our heads—He gives us wisdom to aid us in discerning truth from error and in properly applying what he have learned. Understanding the vocabulary of the Greek New Testament does not come from merely looking up words in a lexicon—understanding the vocabulary of the New Testament comes from an intimate familiarity with the Greek New Testament, the Greek literature that is contemporaneous with it, and the Greek literature from the time of Homer down to the early centuries of the Christian era. Scholarship, therefore, not only has a place—it is vital to an accurate knowledge of the New Testament. I am not such an arrogant fool as to believe that I have a corner on the Holy Spirit that that the early church fathers did not have; nor am I such an arrogant fool as to believe that I have a corner on the Holy Spirit that the Biblical scholars of the past and present did not/do not have. Indeed, as Charles Spurgeon reminded us nearly a century and a half ago, I am indebted to them and what the Holy Spirit has taught them,

“In order to be able to expound the Scriptures, and as an aid to your pulpit studies, you will need to be familiar with the commentators: a glorious army, let me tell you, whose acquaintance will be your delight and profit. Of course, you are not such wiseacres as to think or say that you can expound Scripture without assistance from the works of divines and learned men who have laboured before you in the field of exposition. If you are of that opinion, pray remain so, for you are not worth the trouble of conversion, and like a little coterie who think with you, would resent the attempt as an insult to your infallibility. It seems odd, that certain men who talk so much of what the Holy Spirit reveals to themselves, should think so little of what he has revealed to others. My chat this afternoon is not for those great originals, but for you who are content to learn of holy men, taught of God, and mighty in the Scriptures. It has been the fashion of late years to speak against the use of commentaries. If there were any fear that the expositions of Matthew Henry, Gill, Scott, and others, would be exalted into Christian Targums, we would join the chorus of objectors, but the existence or approach of such a danger we do not suspect. The temptations of our times lie rather in empty pretensions to novelty of sentiment, than in a slavish following of accepted guides. A respectable acquaintance with the opinions of the giants of the past, might have saved many an erratic thinker from wild interpretations and outrageous inferences. Usually, we have found the despisers of commentaries to be men who have no sort of acquaintance with them, in their case, it is the opposite of familiarity which has bred contempt….”

Spurgeon, C. H. Commenting & Commentaries. 1876.

Anyway, I did not state the timing of that which is perfect...just the substance of it. I don't know when the completion, the maturation, or the end-point (all of which are viable translations of teleios) will be, but it will not be until the Bride has made herself spotless. It will not be until we, as the church, have fully matured and grown into the full stature of Christ Himself. However, whenever that is, spiritual maturity will also be complete in the saints. So you see, what I wrote is actually consistent with your post. There is a chance I've read to quickly, as I'm between appointments. If so, then please advise and I'll revisit your words this evening when I've more time.

blessings,

W

The eschatological language used in 1 Corinthians 13:12 requires an interpretation that is consistent with the language. As I wrote above, we will NOT know fully just as we also have been fully known until the Second Advent. Nor will we see Jesus face to face until the Second Advent. Let us not confuse the Second Advent with a point in the maturity of believers, but let us understand it to be the Second Coming of Christ and its glorious and immediate consequences:

1 Cor. 15:50. Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
51. Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,
52. in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
53. For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. (NASB, 1995)

Only then will the promise of 1 Cor. 13:12 be realized:

12. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known. (NASB, 1995)

[Jemand]

The scriptures are invaluable, but apart from the leading, guiding, teaching, and enlightening from the Holy Spirit, the scriptures are simply ink on paper.

The words found in the ancient Greek manuscripts of Paul’s First Epistle to the Corinthians are NOT simply ink on paper (or parchment). Indeed, they represent the concepts in Paul’s mind at the time that he wrote the Epistle, whether he penned the words himself or dictated them to someone else who penned them, and whether the thoughts in Paul’s mind were his own or were divinely inspired. This is true in principle of the rest of the New Testament, and of the whole of the Old Testament. It is also true in principle of the deuterocanonical writings and literature in general. Therefore, anyone who has a healthy, objective mind and an excellent education in the Biblical languages and the principles of hermeneutics can understand most of the Bible. The exceptions, of course, are the parts of the Bible, such Isaiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, and Revelation, which include very much symbolism and imagery. The correct interpretation of these parts of the Bible require and in-depth knowledge of ancient oriental symbolism and imagery.

The ten thousand and one conflicting interpretations of seemingly every verse in the Bible being taught today by “Spirit-filled” pastors, teachers, and message board writers are, for the most part, the consequence of a severely deficient education and an over-active imagination.


At the time that I accepted Christ as my savior, I was attending the Sunday morning and evening services at an Assembly of God Church and Bible studies five nights a week at a Baptist coffee house. The beliefs of the Assembly of God Christians and the Baptist Christians differed on a few doctrinal issues that I believed to be important. My formal education up to that point in my life was in the science of evolutionary biology so I had been very thoroughly taught to think critically and analytically and to never jump to conclusions. Indeed, for a scientist to jump to conclusions, as some have, is to destroy one’s career.

Therefore, when I gave my life to Christ, I had an insatiable desire to know what the Bible really teaches concerning the doctrinal issues over which the Assemblies of God and the Baptists were divided. This desire brought me before God on my knees as I prayed to Him to teach me His truths and to protect me from doctrinal error. Throughout my life since then, that has continued to be my prayer every time that I read the Bible, hear it preached or taught, every time I open a devotional book or a commentary of the Hebrew text of Genesis, and as I go for hikes in the backcountry with God as my only companion.

I do not have any faith at all in what people tell me “God’s word tells us” when I and many others have read the same “word” very many times and I know that it says no such thing. This is especially true when I have spent very many hours studying a passage in the original language and have compared what God has shown me in the passage with what God has shown others who have also very carefully studied it in the original language. This is all the more true when biblical scholars who have invested a large portion of their lives studying, in the original language, the same book of the Bible that I am studying and they interpret it in the same manner that I believe that God has shown me to be correct.

God has spoken to me in a distinctly supernatural manner. The first instance occurred one evening when I had been a Christian for just a few months. That evening, I had had a conversation with Christian man about one of the doctrines taught by both my Assemblies of God pastor and the teachers at the Baptist coffee house, and he told me that the doctrine was not true. I insisted that it was, and he asked me where in the Bible it is taught. I had learned from both my pastor and the teachers at the Baptist coffee house the scriptural basis of the doctrine, but I could not remember where the verses were or the exact wording of them. Therefore, the man told me to go home and study the doctrine and meet with him the following evening.

I went home, opened up my New Scofield Reference Bible, and began reading all of Scofield’s notes on the doctrine. I wanted to find some really good proof texts, but I could not find any. Therefore, I earnestly prayed to God for His help in my study of the Bible that night. I continued to study, and the more that I studied, the more that I prayed because I was not finding anything even close to a proof text. Indeed, it was beginning to appear to me that the doctrine that I was attempting to find proof texts for was not in the Bible. Scofield thought that it was, and I read the verses that he believed proved the doctrine to be true, but I saw that they did not teach it at all. I continued to pray and study and God spoke to me and told me that the doctrine is not true, and told me what the Bible really teaches on the matter.

Having been a Christian for only a few months, and realizing that both my pastor and the teachers at the Baptist coffee house were teaching a very false doctrine, I became very discouraged and wondered what else I had been taught that was not true. It was getting late, and I was very upset, so I poured my heart out to God and asked Him to “help me!” He reminded me of a book that I had—an analysis of the doctrines of the Assembles of God—and I looked through it and saw that it said nothing about that doctrine. Now, I was even more discouraged—I thought that God had reminded me of that book, but the book was of no help. I poured my heart out to God and asked Him to “help me, please!” God spoke to me again and rebuked me for doubting Him and told me to take a closer look at the book. I thought to myself, “Yeah, right!”, but I took a closer look at the book and noticed an asterisk that I had overlooked. The asterisk took me to a note in the appendix in which it said that pastors in the Assemblies of God differ regarding that doctrine—some believing and teaching it, and others not. At that moment, I realized that God had taught me something that my pastor and the teachers in the Baptist coffee house did not know. I said a brief but heart-felt prayer of thanks to God, went to bed, and slept in perfect peace.

Having been educated as a scientist, I had an irresistible desire to find out why my pastor and the teachers at the Baptist coffee house could not understand what to me now was so very clearly taught in the Bible. This desire led me into a study of the history of the interpretation of the New Testament, and that doctrine in particular. I learned that that doctrine taught in my Assembly of God church and the Baptist coffee house is not found in any known piece of writing prior to 1830 and was not commonly accepted as true by Baptists until it was taught by Scofield in 1917 in his very popular study Bible.

The second instance occurred when I had been a Christian for three years and I was teaching a one-year-long Bible study at my church on Paul’s Epistle to Romans. As I was studying chapter six, it appeared to me that Paul was saying something very different than what he said later in chapter 7:14-25, and that my understanding of chapter 7:14-25 was possibly incorrect. Therefore, I earnestly prayed to God for Him to make the matter clear to me. He answered my prayer and told me the correct interpretation of Romans 7:14-25—an interpretation very different from what I had been taught and believed to be true.

I had at that time, thirteen commentaries on the English translation of Romans, and I read what all thirteen of them had to say on that passage. Twelve of them taught the same thing that I had been taught for three years; the remaining commentary was non-committal. Therefore, I prayed again, and asked God if it was really He who had spoken to me. He told me that it was, and told me to believe Him rather than men when there is a disagreement.

Today, I have 243 commentaries on Romans, many of the scholarly commentaries on the Greek text, and I now know very many of the factors that have caused the interpreters of chapter 7:14-25 to interpret it as they have. It is comforting to me to know now that in the academic world, the most common interpretation of that passage is the interpretation that God gave to me, and that He gave the same interpretation to many other faithful believers throughout the history of the Church. Most unfortunately, however, not everyone listens to the voice of the Holy Spirit.

I must emphasize here that although I was taught by the Holy Spirit on these and subsequent occasions, He taught me through the Scriptures rather than by pouring knowledge into my head. I must also emphasize here that although I was taught by the Holy Spirit on these and subsequent occasions, the very same knowledge is available to every Christian who has access to a good Bible college or seminary library. Other “knowledge” is also found in these libraries and, therefore, it is very important for the Christian to pray earnestly, every day, to God, for Him to teach him His truths and to protect him from doctrinal error.

[Watchman]

I don't completely disagree with you. However, you seem to place exponentially more faith in the wisdom and scholarship of men than do I. The scriptures themselves tell us the Holy Spirit is our teacher; consequently, those who read His writings sans His enlightening guidance are reading nothing more than ink on paper. It is not the Spirit who has spawned thousands of different interpretations, as you said. Rather, it is men who claim His leading who are actually working via their own intellects...which are fleshly apart from His leading...who have brought about the confusion. Commentaries are good secondary references, but I will trust nothing they say apart from the confirmation of the Spirit of something I read in them as being true.

Most unfortunately, however, not everyone listens to the voice of the Holy Spirit. I must emphasize here that although I was taught by the Holy Spirit on these and subsequent occasions, He taught me through theScriptures rather than by pouring knowledge into my head. I must also emphasize here that although I was taught by the Holy Spirit on these and subsequent occasions, the very same knowledge is available to every Christian who has access to a good Bible college or seminary library. Other “knowledge” is also found in these libraries…

Your statements above are both encouraging and confusing. Commentaries, lexicons,textual criticisms, and other resources available in libraries are not scripture. Yes, truth is scattered through them, but the leading of the Spirit is required to recognize it. The Spirit does, in truth, teach via the scriptures. But He is not limited to them. They are, in many instances, simply there to be used in Berean-like fashion to confirm what He's taught in other ways. He can teach us directly, by speaking to our spirits, via nature, art, music, and situations. The gospel of Christ and the leading of the Holy Spirit are for the literate and illiterate alike. One need not be an accomplished reader, or a scholar of Greek & Hebrew, or have much education of any sort to become our brother or sister in Christ. Those fishermen Jesus picked were certainly not the best and brightest academicians of their time!

When I began struggling with the meaning of that which is perfect, I too, began to pray about it. The Spirit told me to look closely at end. A few days later, when reading the very passage you referenced, 1 Corinthians15, when I read, Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet.The last enemy that will be destroyed is death, the words seemed to leap off the page at me, even though I’d read them many times previously. The words from there to the end of the chapter made sense to me for the first time. I wouldn’t say He taught me through scripture. I’d say He opened my mind to that portion of scripture, just as Jesus did for His companions that day along the road to Emmaus.

I suspect we actually share a much more congruent understanding of this than we realize. I agree that which is perfect will be realized at the time of Christ’s return. The body will then have grown up into the Head and will have attained the full stature of Christ. I am not arguing against your interpretation. I’m making the case that there is more to it than you’ve presented.

… it is very important for the Christian to pray earnestly, every day, to God, for Him to teach him His truths and to protect him from doctrinal error.

This should be shouted from the rooftops, sir! Amen.

blessings,

W

[Jemand]

I don't completely disagree with you. However, you seem to place exponentially more faith in the wisdom and scholarship of men than do I. The scriptures themselves tell us the Holy Spirit is our teacher; consequently, those who read His writings sans His enlightening guidance are reading nothing more than ink on paper.

My faith is not in the wisdom and scholarship of men; my faith is in God the Father, His Son Christ Jesus, and the ministry of the Holy Spirit working in and through the lives of men who have yielded to the call to devote their lives to the study of the Scriptures that God may be glorified and the Scriptures be made more clear to a Church distantly removed in time, culture, and language from the writers who penned them. All too frequently, I see on this message board the expression of the concept that scholars of the Bible study it without the ministry of the Holy Spirit working in and through their lives, but I never see anyone supporting that concept with any substantial factual evidence. Surely, there are a few arrogant and deceived scholars of the Bible whose spirituality is questionable, but they are easy to spot and thus ignore while greatly benefiting from the tens of thousands of scholars of the Bible whom God has blessed with knowledge beyond our own.

It is not the Spirit who has spawned thousands of different interpretations, as you said.

I neither said nor implied such a thing. I wrote,

The ten thousand and one conflicting interpretations of seemingly every verse in the Bible being taught today by “Spirit-filled” pastors, teachers, and message board writers are, for the most part, the consequence of a severely deficient education and an over-active imagination.

Please notice that the words Spirit-filled are enclosed in quotation marks signifying that what is often said of them by gullible and foolish men is not true. That is, they are NOT filled with the Holy Spirit, but rather they are suffering from the consequence of a severely deficient education and an over-active imagination.

Your statements above are both encouraging and confusing. Commentaries, lexicons,textual criticisms, and other resources available in libraries are not scripture. Yes, truth is scattered through them, but the leading of the Spirit is required to recognize it.

It is true that such sources are not Scripture, but it is not true that truth is merely scattered through them and that the leading of the Spirit is required to recognize it. Truth is truth, wherever it may be found, regardless of who said it or wrote it or published it. The BDAG lexicon and the best commentaries on the Greek text of the individual books of the New Testament are packed with truth in the form of objectively factual data that is immensely helpful to the user is arriving at an interpretation that is in harmony with all of the pertinent data—a requirement that is absolutely necessary for any interpretation of the Scriptures to be correct. Indeed, if more Christians were to avail themselves of this data, we would have far fewer ludicrously wrong interpretations of Scripture.

The Spirit does, in truth, teach via the scriptures. But He is not limited to them. They are, in many instances, simply there to be used in Berean-like fashion to confirm what He's taught in other ways. He can teach us directly, by speaking to our spirits, via nature, art, music, and situations. The gospel of Christ and the leading of the Holy Spirit are for the literate and illiterate alike.

I wholeheartedly agree with these comments!

One need not be an accomplished reader, or a scholar of Greek & Hebrew, or have much education of any sort to become our brother or sister in Christ.

I know this to be true from my own observations and experience.

Those fishermen Jesus picked were certainly not the best and brightest academicians of their time!

We know very little of the education and intelligence of those men, but we can be quite certain that they were polylingual and had an intimate knowledge of Greek and Aramaic, and at least some knowledge of Hebrew and Latin—a knowledge that today requires many years of academic study to acquire. Furthermore, they were eyewitness to the events that we read of in the gospels and they heard what Jesus actually said—giving them knowledge that it takes today’s scholars decades to imperfectly piece together!

When I began struggling with the meaning of that which is perfect, I too, began to pray about it. The Spirit told me to look closely at end. A few days later, when reading the very passage you referenced, 1 Corinthians15, when I read, Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet.The last enemy that will be destroyed is death, the words seemed to leap off the page at me, even though I’d read them many times previously. The words from there to the end of the chapter made sense to me for the first time. I wouldn’t say He taught me through scripture. I’d say He opened my mind to that portion of scripture, just as Jesus did for His companions that day along the road to Emmaus.

God is not a respecter of persons, and if what you were taught was actually taught by the Holy Spirit, we would we find the very same teaching taught throughout the history of the Church—along with, of course, incorrect teachings. That is not, however, what we find. I have acquaintances who are Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, and Muslims—all who believe with the fullness of their being that they have been taught what they believe by the Holy Spirit. I have many more acquaintances who are Christians who believe with the fullness of their being that they have been taught what they believe by the Holy Spirit—but Alas! Their beliefs are extremely varied and they contradict each other!

I suspect we actually share a much more congruent understanding of this than we realize. I agree that which is perfect will be realized at the time of Christ’s return. The body will then have grown up into the Head and will have attained the full stature of Christ. I am not arguing against your interpretation. I’m making the case that there is more to it than you’ve presented.

No, the body of Christ will NOT have “grown up into the Head and will have attained the full stature of Christ” at the time of the Second Coming. That was Paul’s prayer for the Church, but he knew from his personal experience with his fellow believers that such a state would not be fully realized until the moment when, “in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet…the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.” That is, the promises of 1 Cor. 13:12 will not be realized “at the time of Christ’s return,” but upon His return. And upon His return, therefore, there will no longer be a need for the gifts of prophesy, tongues, or knowledge—and the gifts of prophesy and knowledge will be done away, the gift of tongues will cease.

[tea]

Because remember that we can't even desire to come to the Lord unless the Holy Spirit moves us.... So He is the driving force behind it all.... It is by the washing of the water of the word that we are sanctified and perfected (matured)....
"....

Best thing I've read in ages!

I am reminded of something my pastor says.... Too much Spirit and you will blow up.... Too much word and you will dry up.... "....

Please explain, this doesn't make sense

The Spirit of God uses the Word of God to teach and cleanse and perfect us.... It is that simple.... He does not use Love for that.... D"....

Yes He does, but also love surley? Love is disciple is it not. Jesus learned obedience through ... can't remember the last word, but I'll look it up in Heb[suffered I think]

[Slug1]

Please explain, this doesn't make sense

Not to step over MaryF but here is how I understand a meaning of her comment. If a person reads the Bible withOUT the involvement of the Holy Spirit to illuminate and provide the nourishment as God intended... then a person can read the Bible 24/7 and get nothing from it (dried up). If people say they walk in the "Spirit" and they are not reading the Word of God (too much spirit)... well, they are headed for disaster also.

There is a balance.

[Brother Mark]

Paul qualified the "will pass away" with this statement.

1 Cor 13:11-12
11 When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known.
NASU

He used himself as an example and us. We now see in a mirror dimly, but when the perfect has arrived, we will know even as we have been fully known. Now, some may say that Paul is speaking of himself only there, but I think not. He is using himself as an example to others as most everyone does in speech.

Anyway, if we will know as we are known, then certainly the perfect is not the scriptures.

[Watchman]

It is not the Spirit who has spawned thousands of different interpretations, as you said.

I neither said nor implied such a thing. I wrote, The ten thousand and one conflicting interpretations of seemingly every verse in the Bible being taught today by “Spirit-filled” pastors, teachers, and message board writers are, for the most part, the consequence of a severely deficient education and an over-active imagination.

Your statement and mine are in agreement, bro. You said these folks are not Spirit-filled and I agreed, saying the Spirit did not spawn all the confusion...ie, we said the same things. I was agreeing with you, although my wording was poor. More later.

blessings,

Andy